Debra & Lyla
New Member
Is it normal for a dog having an IVDD episode to have elevated muscle enzymes?
Posts: 12
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Post by Debra & Lyla on Oct 20, 2022 21:54:20 GMT -7
[Original subject line: Concerned about lifted restrictions]
Our little warrior, Lyla, had her second IVDD episode and is two weeks post-surgery. We took her to the neurologist for a follow-up and suture removal [10/20] yesterday. Let me say that this neurologist is amazing and I rarely question care/post-op instructions and know that being compliant in following these instructions is a must. At our visit yesterday (2 weeks post-surgery), the neurologist gave us clearance to allow our dog brief periods of walking around the house under strict supervision. These instructions were very different from her first surgery and I am aware that every surgery is different. I would never expect anyone to say they disagree with a neurologist or not to follow the doctor's recommendations so I will ask my question in the form of a request for opinions from other's on their experience:
I am concerned with these lifted restrictions. Everything I have ever researched and read on IVDD (and I have done tremendous research on this) states a MINIMUM of 4 weeks strict crate rest--usually 6-8 weeks. I am not comfortable allowing my dog to have brief periods of walking around the house at 14 days post-surgery. I am so torn and concerned about following the instructions versus feeling that those instructions were given too early and that Lyla should have (at the very least!) two more weeks of strict crate rest. Thoughts or ideas on how I should address this situation?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 21, 2022 7:50:33 GMT -7
Moderator Paula is reading and preparing a reply. In the meantime if you see you've not provided needed basic information to provide a full picture, do so in a new post. QUESTIONS.
Fill us in on the details. Your info is what we base our comments on specific to your dog's needs. Assuming things could cause the discussion to go off in the wrong direction harmfully delaying help.
★1 Is there still currently pain? List the signs you observe. Does pain happen nearing next dose of pain meds? When having to move for potty time?
★2 __How much does your dog weigh? Age?
What is the list of meds your dog is taking?
-- Exact names for each med, their doses in mg’s and times per day given?
-- PLUS: IF on a non-steroid (NSAID) for how many days?
-- PLUS: If on a steroid....what was the start date & dose? Date of steroid 1st taper
-- Please include mgs/frequency for the "all important" stomach protector. Be in the know about Pepcid AC here: 3 stresses +Pepcid AC: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stomach-protection
![https://thumb.ibb.co/mEGRuy/91x_Aj_s00z_L_SY355.jpg]() ★3 Tell us about any red flag signs of stomach damage you are currently observing: Not eating, vomit, loose stool, bleeding ulcers, red or black blood in diarrhea?
★4 What breed? What is your dog’s name? Your name, too?
★6 -- date of surgery?
-- number of weeks surgeons wants for post-op rest?
-- surgeon directed at-home PT?
★8 Describe what you observe currently about neuro functions. Can your dog....
-- wobbly walk?
-- Paws knuckle under. Can't correctly place or is slow to do so
-- Move the legs at all? such as attempt to reposition when lying down or attempt to move up into a stand position?
-- Wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk?
REGISTERThe guest board is a courtesy as a temporary way to quickly get help. Registering helps not only us to better track your dog for quality comments AND it helps you. Timely communications are needed with working with you and your dog. Once registered, the feature of receiving an automated email alert when there is a reply waiting for you becomes available. More about registering here: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/7353/register-bookmark-dogs-post-thread |
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 21, 2022 8:17:16 GMT -7
Debra, a bit hesitant to give you an answer because for us jumping in cold there is a lot of missing information from the date of the disc episode to the date of the surgery (10/7?), still on meds? what? and signs of pain? As you said every surgery is different because every disc episode has varying degrees of nerve damage, varying degrees of disc damage. etc.
So in general, the post-op rest is to allow all of the surgical areas to heal. The skin and muscle are pretty blood rich and can heal quite fast. The disc itself now has less disc material inside (an assumption the disc actually herniated? and expelled material into the spinal cord? rather than just bulged or protruded). With less disc material in the disc there could be less chance for more material to escape while the disc is healing to form scar tissue.
With many surgeries, the surgeon does direct a walking dog to be allowed to walk to and from the potty place right soon after the procedure. All at-home PT is slow and deliberate. It is always supervised and controlled. Thus the PT of walking is managed by use of a leash and harness to control darting off or going too fast. And a sling if there is any wobbliness. Limited gentle, slow walking should not disrupt the healing tissue.
So until we are fully informed of details, I would say in general your surgeon is recommending similar at-home PT other surgeons usually recommend for a post-op dog who can walk.
Let us know for how many weeks your surgeon wants Lyla to heal the surgical sites....often that will be 4 weeks. Some cases depending on what the surgeon saw, may require longer post-op rest.
Once we know how many weeks, we can look forward to sharing Graduation ideas with you for slowly integrating Lyla back into family life and physical activity again over the course of a month or so.
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Debra & Lyla
New Member
Is it normal for a dog having an IVDD episode to have elevated muscle enzymes?
Posts: 12
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Post by Debra & Lyla on Oct 21, 2022 15:45:05 GMT -7
Thank you for your response. Additional information:
10/5/22: Acute onset of trembling and pain. Lyla is ambulatory.
10/6/22: MRI of spine. IVDD extrusion with moderate right and ventral compression at L4-5.
10/07/22: Right Hemilaminectomy L4-5
10/7-10/9: Recovery at Vet ER/Neurologist. Lyla recovered well from surgery was released (went home) on 10/9/22. Lyla is ambulatory.
Medications:
Gabapentin Tablets 50mg Give 1 tablet every 8 hours for 7 days, then
decrease to 1 tablet every 12 hours for 7 days then stop.
Tramadol Tablets 50mg Give 3/4 tablet every 8-12 hours only as needed for
pain. Next dose due as needed.
Methocarbamol Tablets 500mg Give 1/4 tablet every 8-12 hours only as needed for pain.
Clavamox Tablets 62.5mg Give 1.5 tablets every 12 hours until finished.
.
PrednisOLONE Tablets 5mg Give 3/4 tablets every 24 hours for 5 days, then decrease to 1/2 tablet every 24 hours for 5 days then stop [on what date?]
10/9-10/19:Recovery at home. Crate/recovery suite rest. Allowed to be taken outside on leash and with a sling to urinate and defecate. Recovery has been even better than I expected it to be.
10/19/22: Re-check with Neurologist. Healing without complications. Sutures removed.
**EXERCISE RESTRICTIONS (per doctor): Continue exercise restrictions for now. Only leash walks allowed. Lyla may roam the house freely under direct supervision. Place her in her enclosure when you are not home and overnight.**
The "Lyla may roam the house freely under direct supervision" is what has me concerned (from my previous posting). Is it normal for a dog to be allowed to roam the freely 12 days after surgery? Currently I am not comfortable with this and am not letting her do this. I will say that this decision is based on the fact that even though we try to have a calm environment for her, the reality is we have another dog that will bark when the doorbell rings, she may see a squirrel outside (squirrel sightings are a huge excitement for her) and many other things that happen day-to-day in a household that cause dogs to get excited. We are giving her more time to walk on her leash because I know that it is important for her muscles but I am concerned that she could re-injure the surgical site so soon after surgery.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 21, 2022 16:02:58 GMT -7
Debra, thank you for providing full information. You know your home situation best, you know your dogs best. Did you bring up concern of freely w/o leash walking around in your house? You make very good points of the unpredictability interactions with your other dog and viewing excitable things out the window. Even with direct supervision free roaming the the home seems as though it should be limited to an area where you know she can not jump on furniture, is not unexpectedly bothered by your other dog, and even if she would see a squirrel not much area to aggressively dart towards. Ex-pens are handy not only as a recovery suite, but to also block off or limit areas. BEST FRIENDS Can't remember if we've mentioned before that pack dynamics can change when one animal is sick or injured. Thus a reason to not leave Lyla alone unsupervised roaming freely and unleashed with your other dog. For dogs the inborn instinct about weakness is for survival protection of the pack as a whole. There are two things that can happen in pack dynamics when a dog has been or is sick. 1. The healthy one may try to eliminate the weaker in the pack. 2. For the sick one, now the weaker in the pack to become more protective and aggressive because they know they are weaker now and may be subject to being attacked. i.postimg.cc/gkb8hCpW/best-buds.jpg ** |
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 21, 2022 16:05:19 GMT -7
Clarify exactly which meds you are currently giving and exactly how often you give. Pain meds make a dog feel good and make them want to do more than maybe they should if they are not under control of leash and harness or in a safe area where they can't do self harm or another animal cause them harm.
What date does the current tapering Prednisolone stop on?
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Debra & Lyla
New Member
Is it normal for a dog having an IVDD episode to have elevated muscle enzymes?
Posts: 12
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Post by Debra & Lyla on Oct 21, 2022 18:38:28 GMT -7
Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. Excellent point regarding other dogs in the home and definitely something to remember and be aware of.
Her last dose of the Prednisolone was given on the night of 10/19/22. The antibiotic was finished on 10/17/2022. Her last dose of Gabapentin was given last night. The Tramadol and Methocarbamol are on an as needed basis.
On the day that we took Lyla for her follow-up (10/19/2022) Lyla did not seem to be feeling well and was shaking a lot, licking her lips and holding her head up. Her change was so drastic from how well she had been doing that I brought it up to the Neurologist. They ran a blood panel and it came back normal.
The Neurologist said that it was likely break-through pain and that I was probably worrying a little more than I should about it. So I thought okay, she hasn't had any bad days so it would not be unusual to have a bad day when recovering from spinal surgery. Yesterday [10/20]she was about the same but a little more lethargic. Today [10/21] she was even more lethargic, was shaking more and started fidgeting (kind of like she couldn't get comfortable). Of course it is Friday and I started worrying about a UTI or bladder infection or a possible upset stomach with the weekend coming. I know my dog well enough to know that that drastic of a change is more than just a bad day.
This morning [10/21]when we took her out to go to the bathroom she would walk a few steps and then hold her right rear leg up. I didn't think that much about it until I took her out again this afternoon to go to the bathroom and she did the same thing.
I called our regular vet and was able to get her in. They are sending her urine to the lab but said they found more bacteria than expected in the free catch urine specimen so they prescribed antibiotics (✙Clavamox Drops 15 mL- 1.5 mL every 12 hrs. until gone). She also prescribed ✙Cerenia (16 mg- 1 tablet every 24 hours until gone. 4 tablets total) to help in case her stomach is upset.
When we were there the vet watched her walk and she lifted her right leg again after about 7 steps so she prescribed ✙Gabapentin (100 mg-1 capsule every 12 hours). I took her out 30 minutes ago (she has had the dose of Gabapentin [Typo error:] ⚠️500 mg) to go to the bathroom after she urinated and took about 5 steps she lifted her right, hind leg again. Our vet (to clarify, it is not our Neurologist) said it could be nerve or muscle pain. Is this common for dogs recovering from surgery two weeks after surgery?
Sorry to ask so many questions but we went from Lyla having an excellent recovery to her suddenly becoming lethargic, shaking, licking her lips and raising her right hind leg after she walks a little bit. I know that if she is having any pain from from a UTI or from stomach problems then we have meds to help with that. The suddenly lifting her leg now after she takes some steps has me very concerned.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 21, 2022 19:06:49 GMT -7
Debra, we here are not vets. So just throwing out several things to discuss with your DVM vet or the Neuro.
-- Not wanting to bear weight due to pain can mean the nerve root existing the spinal cord bundle going out to the right rear limb is being pinched by some disc material? It can take time to see if the aggravation will alleviate. In that case use pain meds to make her comfortable.
-- generally it takes about 14 days for all of the surgical caused temporary swelling to resolve. Some dogs may need more time on pred or on the pain meds to avoid break thru pain of still existing swelling/inflammation. Maybe Lyla is one of those dogs. In that case meds are not when you see pain, but to use promptly on time so that pain never surfaces. Lyla's pain is occurring with too great of frequency. Seems like she needs her pain meds promptly on time for a bit longer than the usual 14 days.
-- Verify you are NOT giving 500 mgs of gabapentin 2x/day. Verify you are giving gabapentin 100mgs 2x/day.
It is known that gabapentin is effective for 8 hrs. If pain surfaces nearing next dose, that would seem to indicate 3x/day (every 8hrs prescription is needed?) Ditto traMADol and Methocarbamol.
-- Introducing too much exercise too quickly could cause sore muscles. But the dog would not be holding up a limb in pain likely but just moving slower/gingerly due to muscle soreness.
-- The surgery is to remove disc material where it is not supposed to be. It does not happen often, but it can happen that during a surgery a small bit of disc material is not seen and missed. The material then could shift/reposition to cause pain. Or that a small bit of disc material has newly escaped the damaged disc to cause pain.
Let us know if further adjusting pain meds provides full comfort from pain.
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Debra & Lyla
New Member
Is it normal for a dog having an IVDD episode to have elevated muscle enzymes?
Posts: 12
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Post by Debra & Lyla on Oct 21, 2022 19:47:38 GMT -7
PaulaM, yes ma'am, you are correct. Gabapentin is 100 mg every 12 hrs. Very bad typo on my part!
Thank you so much for your input and your time. IVDD fur parents are so blessed to have Dodgerslist in these stressful situations. Being able to talk to people that have dealt with IVDD is such a comfort. I will be reaching out to the Neurologist on Monday to discuss the activity instruction concerns, leg problem and possible medication adjustments (or going to the Vet ER if needed). I appreciate you!
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Debra & Lyla
New Member
Is it normal for a dog having an IVDD episode to have elevated muscle enzymes?
Posts: 12
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Post by Debra & Lyla on Nov 7, 2022 12:38:51 GMT -7
Lyla Update-4 weeks Post Surgery Lyla was 4-weeks post-surgery on Friday (11/4/22). Per my previous posting, her leg has improved and she has not been holding it up. I still notice that sometimes when she is standing she has a tendency to bear her weight more on her left leg. I wanted to share because I am very confused and upset with the neurologist/neurologists office. I am not looking to bash the office but I feel very lost and any opinions would be appreciated. The neurologist's office never returned any of my calls regarding Lyla's leg: holding it up or the change in behavior that came with that (not wanting to walk, being lethargic, showing signs of pain). I called the office again on Friday to see when her next post-op follow up should be since I was never given another appointment at her 10-day follow up and suture removal. A vet tech called me [11/7] today and said that there are no follow-ups scheduled for Lyla. When I asked about her leg problem that they never called me back about, the response was "if she is doing fine now it could have just been sore muscles" (it would have been nice to have heard this or any thing from them two weeks ago when I called several times about it). I asked about the short-term recovery plan since the last instructions (10 days post-op) were "Only leash walks allowed. Lyla may roam the house freely under direct supervision. Place her in her enclosure when you are not home and overnight." The vet tech told me today that she can return to normal activities. When I voiced my concern about her returning to normal activity due to the fact that she is only 4 weeks post-op, she is young and most definitely will chase squirrels and have the zoomies/run I was then told "well yeah, then keep her on a leash outside". I have not been allowing "roaming the house freely" for safety reasons of our personal household (the doorbell ringing, another dog in the house, squirrels in the yard). I have continued with crate rest and limited potty-break time on leash as every thing I have read about IVDD states 6-8 weeks strict crate rest recovery and I would rather err on the side of caution then to allow her to return to normal activity at 4 weeks post op. For her first surgery (this is her second one) they saw her at 4 weeks post-op and gave very precise instructions on how long to restrict her activity and how to build back up to regular activity/life so I am trying to understand why this surgery is being treated so differently? I do understand that every surgery is different but I figured a 4 or 6 week follow up would be standard procedure for a surgical dog recovering from IVDD. Since Lyla has mostly recovered from her leg problem and is no longer taking meds (she is no longer showing signs of pain, is not lifting her leg when she walks and is not lethargic) I guess there is no reason to see the neurologist...? In any one's experience, is it standard protocol not to have any follow-ups past 10 days of surgery? I feel like we have been dismissed and forgotten. Normally I would not question a specialist's instructions when it comes to post-op care but this feels like a very odd approach to a dog that has had spinal surgery. Has any one had a surgical IVDD dog that was released to full activity at 4 weeks? I am not looking for anyone to say that my neurologist is wrong, I am just wondering if my concerns are normal and valid? Perhaps in all of my research about IVDD I have missed information stating that some dogs can return to normal activity at 4 weeks post op? |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 7, 2022 13:49:30 GMT -7
Debra, sorry to hear there was some sort of mix up on the post-0- check up appt for Lyla, etc. We've where very interested in knowing the number of weeks your vet wanted for post-op crate rest so we could be ready to help you transition Lyla back to family life. It appears it is 4 weeks. That is very usual. If a surgeon saw something during the surgery, then they might call for 6 or eve 8 weeks of post-op rest. Wonderful news on walking with a pretty normal gait! So your couch potato girl needs to now begin to slowly increase physical activity and enjoying family life sessions. GRADUATION, A SLOW RE-INTRODUCTION Determine how you are going to ease back into more normal activity at graduation from rest. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Not free riegn of the house and yard immediately! LOL You do not want to be confused over temporary muscle soreness from overdoing things VS if it might be disc related. Your dog's muslces are soft and out of shape after the rest period. Gradually build up her muscles and lungs. Take a look at our information. Gradually muscles and stamina over a month's time will have her dog safely running and having fun again! SAMPLE SCHEDULE Here is a sample schedule to safely and slowly introduce your dog back to family life and physical activity: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly/?highlight=sample%20scheduleDIY back PROTECTION around the house for Lyla and your other dog.  ** 1) Good ideas in making your home back friendly: dodgerslist.com/2020/07/09/home-protect-ivdd-backs/2) If she is the least bit unstable, consider these ideas and products to provide improved traction on smooth floors: dodgerslist.com/2022/10/08/traction-solution-improvements/3) Teach Lyla dog to be safe and not jumping up or down, but to use a ramp whether over steps leading outdoors or to furniture in the house. Dogs are best at visual learning rather than verbal commands. Dog trainer Anna Jane Grossman says “Dogs learn in pictures. Inside your dog’s brain is a very simple algorithm – pleasant images in one place and unpleasant images in another."
HAPPY DAYS AHEAD 1) Lots more ideas and tips in living with an IVDD dog including how to handle dental, nail trims to just plain having fun!: dodgerslist.com/living-with-ivdd-tips-2 PT THERAPY AT CLINIC or HOME Safety first. You should always consult with a veterinarian before starting any exercise program with your dog. For example, although senior dogs need to stay limber, severe arthritis might make certain movements inappropriate. iting on more nerve connection: -- Strengthening core muscles Core exercises don't require specialized equipment. The core muscles play an important role in supporting the spine. Here are 5 exercises you can do at home: totofit.com/five-basic-exercises-essential-to-building-core-strength/May we ask you for help? We are a small group of less than a handful. We could use help in education about IVDD in every state. -- When in conversation at the grocery store line or wherever you may meet breeds most prone to IVDD (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas, Frenchies) give out our free little wallet cards. Hand carry our literature and print out our letter of introduction for your own vet. ► ORDER BROCHURES & cards, they're free!◀︎] --- for your vet and wallet cards for you And finally, Debra, don't be a stranger! Stop in periodically. We really do love to hear how your Lyla is doing. We'd love a short video clip to see her in action at home and living & loving life in spite of IVDD! if you see a new member in a tough spot, give them hope. A brief paragraph about your dog can be insanely supportive and inspiring in a time of need!  |
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Debra & Lyla
New Member
Is it normal for a dog having an IVDD episode to have elevated muscle enzymes?
Posts: 12
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Post by Debra & Lyla on Nov 7, 2022 20:28:26 GMT -7
Thank you for all of the excellent information! I have read and watched some of it and will look at the rest tonight. So happy to hear that 4 weeks is the usual amount of time to begin the transition back to normal/family life. I kid you not, these are the post-op instructions we were emailed 12 days post surgery (photo below). We have not received any other post op instructions except for the vet tech telling me today (at 4 weeks post op) that Lyla can return to normal activities. Our house is already "Lyla-friendly" (as we like to call it) with all stairs blocked, furniture blockes and ramps--we hot glued sides on the ramp to keep her from jumping off half-way down when she is excited and we added wood pieces with safety treads on them because we noticed she was having a hard time getting a good grip on the ramp (will add a pictures in hopes that it might be useful information for other IVDD parents). I also ordered a new harness for her for when she goes to the vet so that everyone there will be aware of her condition (will send that photo as well). Our biggest concerns moving forward in to recovery and back to regular life are the things we can't control or have a hard time controlling. One of them being the "zoomies" around the yard. We've tried taking her for walks to drain her energy but 1-2 times a day she just feels the need to zoom around the yard for about 30 seconds (it's a scary 30 seconds as a dog mom). And then there's the never-ending squirrels, birds, lizards, etc. that she will spend every waking moment waiting to chase and hunt. This one probably ranks as the scariest of all because being a Dachshund, she is a born hunter and she does it with 1,000% gusto! Any ideas on that would be a miracle for us! But I also know that at the end of the day that is her greatest joy. I have to read the "Living with the Fear of IVDD" article/writing almost daily to remind myself that I can't keep her in a bubble.😬 Although the vet tech said she is free to return to normal activities, I will begin the slow introduction of longer leash time in the yard and brief periods of walking on the carpet in the hallway with supervision. With IVDD I am all about a slow and steady recovery! Thank you for your care, quick response, and excellent information and ideas for recovery. You are appreciated!! ibb.co/TTXkcFw ibb.co/fV3TNtH |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 8, 2022 9:25:50 GMT -7
Debra, running in a straight forward path is good exercise once her stamina and muscle strength has be built up. The kind of running you want to discourage when possible or not to encourage is the zig-zag type with tight turns. Doing these things "may help" to prolong another disc episode. Debra, you do what you can. And then a dog still has to be a dog as you've read in S.D.'s essay on "Living with Fear of IVDD." IVDD is a very unpredictable disease. Some dogs have only one disc episode their long lives while others may have multiple episodes. IVDD is a progressive disease where discs prematurely age beginning at age 1. One of mine had a surgery at age 1. More typical, however, is that owners and vets first learn the dog was born with IVDD at age 3-7 with first disc episode. At the point a disc has aged and is no longer flexible, then it could tear/bulge (a disc episode). A useful overview of this disease: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/26/time-and-ivdd/ See below the discussions on the " GRADUATE" board where your very interesting ideas would fit and be easy for other members to find: RAMP I recommend with your post & photos, to give as much info as possible to aid a person in reproducing your ramp modifications. Such as how did you attach the siding (glued?, screwed on? etc). What is the siding: from a cut down trellis or what size wood did you use, etc. HARNESS The harness may will likely be of interest, too. -What size is your dog, breed, weight so a member can compare with their dog. -What is the name of the vest model & company and size you bought -Where did you buy it from and -How much did it cost? -Explain more how the text got on the harness: *IVDD* (BACK PROBLEMS) Always support my lower spine! Discussions on the GRADUATES boards1) Living with the Fear of IVDD: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/410/living-fear-ivdd?page=12) Footwear, harnesses, scooting garments: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/1564/footwear-harnesses-scooting-garments3) Ramps: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/867/ramps |
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Debra & Lyla
New Member
Is it normal for a dog having an IVDD episode to have elevated muscle enzymes?
Posts: 12
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Post by Debra & Lyla on Nov 14, 2022 9:36:35 GMT -7
Not sure if I am posting this in the correct place. I was doing some research and ran across Percutaneous Laser Disc Ablation. I found a thread about it but it looks like it was posted/discussed several years ago. I was wondering if any one (their pet) has had personal experience with this procedure and/or if there is any new information about this procedure?
Thank you!
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 14, 2022 9:46:24 GMT -7
Moderator Paula is reading and preparing a reply.
Thanks for keeping all questions, info under Lyla's thread. This way Lyla's history is available to scan before making comments.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 14, 2022 10:02:48 GMT -7
Laser Disc Ablation (LDA) There are a limited number of clinics that do LDA. Dodgerslist has asked a few of the neuros we work with, they really don't seem to have an opinion. As with any surgery there is a risk so best to talk everything over with your vet and have them call OSU news.okstate.edu/articles/veterinary-medicine/2016/disk-surgery-dogs-does-it-work.html or the Dallas Surgical Center dvsc.com/2020/01/laser-disc-ablation-preventing-intervertebral-disc-disease/ who do a lot of this procedure to discuss if they believe this is right for your dog. Choose a clinic that has a history/experience of doing this procedure. Every single disc in the spine has the potential to be effected by the ongoing disease process of IVDD. For the LDA procedure only 7 discs are selected to zap (those that seem to herniate most are often located mid back). When LDA was rather new, Dodgerslist contacted Dr. Dugat at Oklahoma State University to learn more about LDA. "I just published a new study "Recurrence of disk herniation following percutaneous laser disk ablation in dogs..." that looked at dogs who had the LDA for a minimum of 3 years after their LDA procedure (this is the time frame that has been documented in the literature to say that we are confident that a recurrence will be less likely to happen). My study just came out in the Dec. 15th 2016 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. I have attached it for you to have. Basically, what this study did was look at the recurrence in a population of dogs that had LDA and were followed up for 3 years. We cannot take these numbers and directly relate them to a group of dogs that did not have the LDA, but we can use this information to show how good of a job the procedure does. We looked at 303 cases. 19.8% of the dogs (n = 60/303) had an episode of SUSPECTED or CONFIRMED disk herniation after having the PLDA, but only 3.6% had a CONFIRMED disk herniation (via CT, MRI, surgery). 19 of the 60 dogs had a suspected episode of pain that resolved on its own in less than 3 days (this is probably not a true recurrence, but we had to include them based on the clinical signs that owners were reporting). 94.4% of owners reported that their dog was the same or better immediately after the PLDA (we want them to come in and leave our hospital the same - normal). Owners rated their satisfaction with the procedure as >/= 9 (1 = completely dissatisfied) and 10 = completely satisfied). The biggest complication seen was during the procedure and was 10%. The most common complication in this percentage was the inability to do the procedure on a disk space because we could not get the needle inserted. The most likely cause for this is probable scar tissue that has developed or collapse of the disk space from a previous rupture. I hope this information helps! Danielle R. Dugat, DVM, MS Diplomate, ACVS-SA Assistant Professor Small Animal Surgery Boren Veterinary Teaching Hospital Oklahoma State University 1 Farm Road Stillwater, OK 74078 A follow up is Dugat's: 19 July 2021 Evaluation of the intervertebral disk, vertebral body, and spinal cord for changes secondary to percutaneous laser disk ablation. onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/vsu.13684 I did a Forum Search with " LDA". There are a number of member posts threads that came up. I just read thru two of them and list them to get you started. dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/8817/mikes-buddy-15-surgery7wks-grad I called Dallas Surgical Center about laser ablation surgery. The person there suggested me to wait at least 2 months after his surgery (so at least until 11/15), and two weeks after any kinds of pain symptom, whichever is latest. Right now, I am gathering all the soap notes from Buddy's previous surgery in 2021 and this year's surgery to email it to Dallas Surgical Center. The person suggested the procedure would cost ~$3500, which to me seems a reasonable number, compared to the cost of an IVDD surgery (even after the pet insurance) and the psychological toll of seeing Buddy paralyzed and sick. We will keep posted. 11/5/22: We have a follow-up with the neurosurgeon in 3 months. We will make a decision about LDA at that time. dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/8602/paulettes-henry-conservative-beagle-grad?page=3 Post by Paulette & Henry on Aug 11, 2022 at 1:03pm Hello. I just wanted to let you know that Henry is doing great after his disc ablation. It’s been three weeks now. If you decide on LDA, we would be very interested in your adding to our member Vet Directory details to help another member: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/13/member-reported-surgery-costs-recommendations |
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