PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,571
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 15, 2013 20:58:00 GMT -7
Lisa, there comes a time when YOU have to take responsibility for your dog's treatment. You read up on the disease from authoritative sources, the treatment and then you decide IF you will go with your vets ideas or whether you will decide to go for a 2nd opinion, that is hire a vet who does know IVDD.
You still did not answer my two questions...so, sadly, I am in the dark to be able to offer any help.
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Post by Linda Stowe on Apr 15, 2013 21:21:14 GMT -7
Lisa, we have seen members over the years let the dog sit on the couch or lay on the bed. They either turned away for a second or fell asleep. It only took the dog a split second to jump off the couch or bed. The doorbell rang, the UPS man went by, etc. All it takes is less then a minute for the dog to be totally paralyzed. Believe me we have seen it way too many times. Then there is the guilt.
So, its very simple IMO, you need to decide if you want to take that risk. If its that important to you to have him set beside you knowing the risk you are taking, then that is you and your vets' responsibility. We never on Dodgerslist can waiver from our committment to give the dog the best chance to heal. Stoney's healing is our first priority.
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 16, 2013 4:24:14 GMT -7
Not sure of the questions that I did not answer...I did take him to the vet and learn how to express him but he is still going to the pee in his crate..I am not sure ofthe other question..
She wanted to amke sure all his swelling was gone so she prescribed the higher dose of pred again...She said she can adjust his meds accordingly..
As for the accupuncture she called the dr who does it and said to wait to see if the steroids help before starting the accupuncture...Not sure any other reason...The accupucnture dr called me and told me to call her in a week and let her know if the preds are working...
This is hard becasue I really apprecate all of your support but why I am paying a Dr if they are telling me the wrong things? Not very sure of who to listen to...
At this moment Stoney cannot walk he can stand but take no steps, the Dr is treating him with prednisone and I do have him in the crate..He eats and drinks and poops outside ..
I hope this answered all of the questions. I feel like i am getting yelled at here and right now the extra stress is not needed..
I did take Stoney to his regualr vet and a Neurologist specialist so I do have two opinions..Seems they both agree with each other and here I am getting totally different???
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Post by Linda Stowe on Apr 16, 2013 6:45:11 GMT -7
Lisa, I'm sorry if you thought I or anyone else was yelling at you. Not anyone's intention. I was just telling you of what we've seen here in 11+ years. Too many dogs who've had setbacks because of unexpected noises that made them jump or take off. From personal experience I can tell you it can happen before you can blink.
Again, I'm sorry. You make a decision based on what you feel is the best for Stoney and what you feel in your heart and mind is right. We will always be here to support Stoney.
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 16, 2013 8:06:08 GMT -7
Thank you so much Linda..You are so kind and I appreciate allthe things I read and that you help me with..I would be a mess without you.
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 17, 2013 13:24:27 GMT -7
Just having a sad moment...I called vet to see if there were any drops to put in stoneys eye becasue the one had dry eye the vet had said the other day but hse never told me to put anything in them..Talked to the receptionist on the phone and she looked up Stoneys chart and said the Dr had not put anything down about that...She then stated that was the least of his problems, what is that suppose to mean ? The vet did not tell me anything bad, she just warned me about the use of prednisone can cause diabetes ..She callled stoney heavy, he is 20 lbs and they recommend 18..I feel so hopeless, Stoney seems happy he sleeps and sits in his cage and looks outside and barks and eats and drinks..he just cant walk atleast not now...So the vets give up on dogs because he is 10? The vet also had called the accupucturist and said to wait and see what prednisone may do before she started the accupuncture so they know what works the prednisone or the accupuncture? That made me feel sad to...I am sorry I feel so bad, somedays it literally overwhelms me just like today.. Could there be something else and she does not have to tell me ? They didnt do blood work or anything? I just needed to tell someone... Vet called me back said Stoneys heart was fine.She stated that she wanted to put off accupuncture for now to see if putting him on prednisone was helping or not...I still dont feel happy, I feel helpless...
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Post by Sherry Layman on Apr 17, 2013 15:45:06 GMT -7
Indeed steroids can cause elevated blood sugars, and if given on a long-term basis they can cause true diabetes. Generally dogs with IVDD are not on them long enough or on high enough doses to have that complication...GENERALLY, there are exceptions to every rule. The steroids can elevate the blood sugar some and that causes an increase in thirst and therefore increased urination which can then lead to accidents in the crate if the owner isn't realizing what's going on. It happens and it will fix itself as the steroids are tapered off. Nothing to panic about, though we all feel bad when we find our pet in that wet crate. But keep this all in perspective, frequent deep breaths are required in these circumstances.
As for Stoney's eye problem, that's outside our area of expertise so I hate to advise you on it. However it seems you and your vet are having some communication problems. A couple suggestions...is there another vet in your area that you might "gel" with better? If not then whenever you go to the vet it would be a good idea to have a piece of paper (maybe one of those small spiral notepads) that you could make some notes on so he can see you are really trying to listen and remember and you know you've recalled things accurately even with the huge amount of information you are sometimes given in a short time.
We recommend acupuncture be started right away. Not to argue with your vet but we've been at this for many years and have seen many many dogs with this disease. I would politely pose the question to your vet "Why does it matter what works, the prednisone or the acupuncture as long as something works?" If your vet continues to be reluctant regarding the acupuncture then it will be up to you to get tough and be an advocate for Stoney. Contact the vet who will do the acupuncture and tell them you have decided you want it started right away.
You mentioned that they didn't do any blood work...what blook work were you hoping for? If it's regarding the steroids I wouldn't say at this point it's necessary.
Your question about vets "giving up"...depending on the vet it's sad but a fact that some see animals differently than others. I'm not being judgemental at all and I'm just generalizing here but for instance the typical "farm" vet or large animal vet will see a dog or cat as somewhat disposable. If a problem can be treated with minimal effort and expense then they treat otherwise they don't understand why people put time and money into such an animal as their focus is the money making animals such as cattle, hogs, etc. It's a mindset, a way of life. Many members only have access to vets with this type of viewpoint and if members can keep attitudes positive and become educated and then educate the vet so he doesn't have to do the work himself then outcomes can be much more positive. But it's often a battle and you have to be up for it. You have to be the advocate for your pet. I'm not saying this is what's happening with your vet, that was just one example but indeed some vets don't see the point or don't know that IVDD is not a death sentence. Keep your chin up and educate yourself so you can educate your vet. Yes, it seems backwards. But it's for Stoney.
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 17, 2013 15:56:52 GMT -7
Thank you Sherry..
I just think ahead and worried something could be wrong and the vet did not tell me..
I felt bad about the accupuncture getting postponed , unfortunately the Dr that does it works where at my vets..
His eye is ok she just said mentioned that stoney had dry eye and didnt address it any further so I called her and she said not to worry unless it got worse...
stoney is on 5 mg steroid 2 x day for 1 week then the taper period..
I have had him to a neurologist specialist over 45 minutes away and she did the pred thing and then suggested a mri (2500) and then possible surgery that she could not guarantee would work so I opted for conservative treatment..
I wish I would have had him on crate rest from the beginning and I feel he would have gotten better quicker rather than move around to much and now he can stand but not walk on his own..
also the accupuncture vet said to call her if pred does not work and then she will try accupuncture? I have called 2 times and they go over me...I cannot find another accupuncture vet in the Pittsburgh area..
Thank for all of your help..
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Post by Sherry Layman on Apr 18, 2013 7:03:59 GMT -7
It does no good to anticipate the future, planning is one thing but anticipating disaster can cause problems rather than prevent them. And if you really are worrying that your vet is keeping things from you then you have two choices...do some research and get some knowledge to back you up so you have a better level of comfort or find a vet you trust more. You have to do what benefits Stoney, you are his voice and his advocate.
I'm glad his eye is ok, no more worries about that issue.
The steroid dose seems normal so I'd just go with it and watch Stoney only for signs of regression. He may or may not show signs of great improvement during the course of the steroids, you are watching for signs of worsening.
Indeed surgery is never a guarantee. If you've opted for the conservative method of treatment (steroids and crate rest) I doubt they'll do the MRI unless Stoney gets worse and you reconsider the surgical option. Just to clarify how things will likely proceed.
Don't beat yourself up. You had the information and knowledge you had at the time. You make the best decision you can in the moment and don't look back, only move forward. Many people have been in your situation and still had great outcomes. Many people have had the opportunity to do it all exactly right from the very moment the dog went down and still ended up with a paralyzed dog. Life often doesn't make sense, things happen for reasons we often don't understand. Stoney just asks you to love him, nothing more.
If you want to pursue the acupuncture right away start making some random phone calls. Don't give your whole story, don't give your name just call some random vet offices and ask if they know of a dog acupuncturist. You could even call that specialists office you've seen and ask them...again don't identify yourself, just randomly ask the question. You may get a different acupunctute vet name. If you don't then you know, if you do then you can decide what you want to do.
Keep us posted. Take some deep breaths and live in the moment!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,571
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 18, 2013 7:52:15 GMT -7
Lisa, look for a vet qualified in pet acupuncture which usually are holistic vets. These directories can help you find one in your area. The directory information comes from our Disc Disease 101 readings we highly recommend all owners read: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingacupuncture.htmahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html [holistic vets] www.aava.org/php/aava_blog/aava-directory/ [AAVA (American Academy of Veterinary Acupuncture] www.ivas.org/ [IVAS (International Veterinary Acupuncture Society] The sooner acupuncture is started the sooner you will be helping to kickstart nerves to heal. Waiting to see if prednisone will help is like doing an experiment on Stoney, where you want to control all variables to know exactly which treatment worked. In Stoney's case it is not right to experiment on him... it IS right to give Stoney every advantage asap! If it is in your budget, then give Stoney every opportunity to help his nerves regenerate. Do be an informed IVDD owner and know that chiro is never a recommended treatment for a dog with disc disease.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 18, 2013 15:42:45 GMT -7
Just chiming in here Lisa,
The right thing to do for Stoney is acupuncture.. Don't give up, fight for Stoney..Sherry and Paula have given you wonderful advice on how to find a holistic vet that does Acupuncture..The vet you go to isn't the big boss.. YOU are in charge of your Stoney and you can make the decision..
Believe me, you have it in you to stand up for what Stoney needs..
Hugs, Pauliana
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Apr 19, 2013 17:31:17 GMT -7
I know how hard this is for you, I remember feeling the same way. Fight for your dog - Vets cannot know everything about every disease out there, and some are insecure enough to counter what you learn because they feel threatened, or disrespect others knowledge (knowledge that they may not possess) I know, I am a retired Animal Health Tech, and saw it all of the time. I got quite aggressive when Stevie got hurt, trying to find out what was best for her, and making it happen. Accupuncture will help, so does laser therapy, and cage rest is a must, don't let anyone tell you differently. You obviously love Stoney very much and are working hard for him. Everyone here will do anything that they can to help. Keeping you in thought and prayer
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 19, 2013 18:11:48 GMT -7
Thank you so much for your kind words...I wouldn't get thru this if it wasn't for such nice people...I spent the day today looking for accupuncture Drs and ones who do laser light therapy...I live in pittsburgh pa and I a,m having a hard time...I am behind my precious dog 100% ..he just lays in his crate all day and he is so good...he turns his head and literally has conversations with me he sings so well..I hope and pray he can walk again...thanks again for all the love and support on here...
Lisa
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 20, 2013 12:34:14 GMT -7
Took stoney outside today and he heard another dog barking and he stood there and barked like noones business...He went over to the planters on the back porch and he sniffed and he looked like he wanted to go beside and pee but nothing came out...his tail was up to while he was barking...made me feel happy...
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 20, 2013 16:25:23 GMT -7
Lisa, that is a WONDERFUL sign that Stoney is recovering very well! I am so excited for you and Stoney!
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Apr 20, 2013 17:57:10 GMT -7
I'm so glad to hear this!
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Apr 20, 2013 19:01:57 GMT -7
That is great!!! You are doing a good job
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 24, 2013 12:03:58 GMT -7
Hi
I have a quick question, what do I use to take Stoney outside ?I have been carrying him to his potty spot and expressing him..Seems he wants to move and go to his trees and today he smelled and released urine...He stands but does not walk yet..I have to bend over to bend over to help him and it is killing my back...can I buy something to help me out while he is on his strict crate rest..Three weeks down and counting!!
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 24, 2013 19:25:08 GMT -7
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Apr 25, 2013 20:39:16 GMT -7
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 26, 2013 6:34:26 GMT -7
Hi So Stoney is on week 3 of crate rest and taking his pred 1 x day for 3 more days then eod til the pills are gone...I carry him ouside to pee and stand him in one place and hold his back legs so he does not wobble and fall while I express him..The problem is he is trying to walk and take off on me while I am bendning over holding him this is killing my back ..It seems he wants to go to all his old peeing spots..I usually go to one of those but after he starts urinating he wantsto move on..Thankfully he is only 19 pounds but this sis killing my back can someone please suggest an easy way for me? Thank you so much!
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Post by Linda Stowe on Apr 26, 2013 7:15:29 GMT -7
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 26, 2013 7:25:13 GMT -7
Hi Linda
Stoney is 19.4 pounds and a pug...guess it would be a small?
Thank you for all your help Lisa
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,571
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 26, 2013 10:19:53 GMT -7
Lisa, do you also use a harness with leash as well as a sling at potty times? The harness and leash is what keeps Stoney from darting off.. it is how you control him. I found this other option to work better for me. Use and ex-pen or some of that poke in the ground fencing to form a 6" diameter potty area. With a fenced area, then you need only use the sling as the fence provides a physical and visual barrier to let Stoney know "no sniff fests!"
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 26, 2013 10:34:05 GMT -7
No I do not have a ex pen yet I will have to go and get something this weekend..I have not been putting his harness on as I am afraid where it connects at his back it would hurt.I carry him out and set him down and hold his back up..
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,571
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 26, 2013 10:43:22 GMT -7
GARDEN edging fencing works well and may be less expensive at your local hardware store. Comes in an 8 foot length and 18" or higher options.
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 26, 2013 11:49:55 GMT -7
Thanks Paula...I guess my biggest concern is how to let him in it alone as he does not walk yet and I hold his back legs when I express him..i have no type of harness that he will wear..That is why i want to get a backwards leash, stoneys is a real fanatic when it comes to putting things on him..
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,571
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 26, 2013 11:53:57 GMT -7
When using the fence option, you will need to use a sling to keep his spine aligned and his rear from tipping over. The sling would should not have the wheelbarrow effect nor pulling up on his belly. Most male dogs do not like anything touching their penis at potty time. Many members have found the figure eight sling to work well at potty times.
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Post by lisa363 on Apr 26, 2013 12:42:06 GMT -7
Thank you again I am not to handy when it comes to making things, is there anywhere you know of that i can buy a ready made one that will not interfere with his private parts?
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Post by Linda Stowe on Apr 26, 2013 13:11:48 GMT -7
Lisa email me at lstowe1@tx.rr.com Please do so before too much longer as I'm going out of town for a couple of days.
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