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Post by Debbie & Redd on Aug 10, 2024 17:58:59 GMT -7
[Original subject line:IVDD Rhodesian Ridgback Cervical ]
i.postimg.cc/gcQc1xVY/GRADUATE.jpg ** My name is Debbie and my dog’s name is Redd. Redd herniated his disc on May 11 and had C6-C7 ventral slot surgery done on May 13. He is a 100 pound, 8 year old, purebred, male Rhodesian Ridgeback. Based on what the surgeon saw in the MRI, in addition to IVDD, she also said he also has wobblers disease, which he would have had his whole life but didn’t present any symptoms.The veterinarian is a DACVIM neurosurgeon with BluePearl.We are now almost 13 weeks post surgery. Redd initially had deep pain sensation but was non-ambulatory. Now he is able to walk but still has some ataxia and is a fall risk. We have to have carpet runners or yoga mats all over the tile floor as his rear legs slip out from under him. His front legs are almost back 100%. We are well past Prednisone, crate rest, etc. Redd gets PT once per week and acupuncture every 4 to 6 weeks. He is on Gabapentin, twice per day, and occasional Tylenol as needed. The neurosurgeon released him months ago and he just gets PT.He had a follow up exam with PT this week and the notes are: Good cervical ROM, no pain, no low lumbar/iliopsoas pain, wide based in rear but places 100% of the time, on toes in TL but improved stride, mild to moderate PL ataxia - much improved overall, good overall tone, 3/5 strength. Mild extensor rigidity when paws are stimulated.My question is: being as we are now at 3 months, is this as good as it gets or is there still time for improvement? We are still afraid to leave him alone as we feel he could get hurt if he fell and his legs went in wrong directions under his 100 pound body. He is still wearing his Help Em Up harness and we are still offering support when he wobbles, although he is probably able to catch himself. His legs occasionally shake when he’s lying down. At what point will he cease to improve? The PT vet told us that he could potentially keep the rigidity and I can’t find anyone talking about that issue. Redd is still nervous about changing his position in bed and getting up on his own. There isn’t a whole lot of stories about large dogs with IVDD out there. I have found very few. Can he still get back to “normal”? Thank you!
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2024 18:55:21 GMT -7
Debbie, welcome to the Forum. In 13 weeks Redd has improved alot neurologically from not being able to walk pre-surgery. There is still plenty of time for more nerve healing to take place. He has such a handsome and sweet face. Could you fill us in on the reason for both gabapentin and Tylenol at this point in time post op? Did the neuro or other vet specifically Rx taking Tylenol? What is "on toes in TL but improved stride"? Do his paws knuckle under, slow to right them? Or something else? Could you describe the rigidity you are observing? When does it happen, which legs, etc? There are a number of large breed care tips. At this point in time you may want to skim to see if any could apply or be useful in caring for Redd. Here is the LARGE BREED CARE Tips link: dodgerslist.com/large-dog-care-tips-ivdd/Sounds like you are covering much that is a danger to any degree of front leg weakness. See if there are any other ideas that could be useful in improving saftey and lessen the fear walking on smooth floors with these three tips: dodgerslist.com/traction-solution-improvements/Debbie a cervical ventral slot surgery is the type of surgery we have heard that is performed for Wobblers Disease. We have been told Wobblers surgery is MUCH more major than for IVDD surgery and the recovery can be longer and more painful. Wobblers is caused by the unstable and shifting vertebrae placing so much pressure on the discs that the disc material bulges out onto the spinal cord. The discs are often otherwise healthy. The only disease we know alot about on this Forum is IVDD. IVDD is a disease of early degeneration of the discs which result in a disc episode around 3-7 years old. The discs loose flexibility. And with the pressure of vertebrae moving normally as a dog walks, it is too much pressure for the prematurely aged discs. The pressure can cause a torn disc. The disc material then escapes into the spinal canal to pressure the spinal cord, possibly loosing neuro function. It would be good to have an understanding of the specific disease the surgery was for. - Was surgery for removing escaped disc material from a torn degerated disc? - Or was the surgery for boney vertebrae pressing on a healthy disc? - Discuss with your vet and Google to learn as much as you can about Wobblers. - Dodgerslist has a tremendous amount of information on IVDD. Check out our Website www.dodgerslist.com And, of course, please ask us here about anything IVDD that concerns you. |
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Post by Debbie & Redd on Aug 11, 2024 9:45:52 GMT -7
Thank you for your response. And over the weekend!
The surgery was to remove disc material for a herniated disc caused by IVDD. The wobblers was just an “oh, by the way, he has this too and it isn’t something we could have fixed during his surgery. It isn’t the cause but isn’t doing him any favors.”
The Tylenol is prescribed on an as needed basis and we give it to him if we think he has overdone it stretched a muscle and has some pain. This is very very rare, not even once per week.
He was on Gabapentin before all this happened as he had “some unknown neuro issue” and he would all of a sudden kick a leg back or experience slight, non-painful muscle twitching. We noticed this when we got him about 2.5 years ago and he had a spinal tap but nobody could figure out the issue. I’m assuming, now, that it might have been the wobblers. He would get one pill per day as a maintenance dose.
I’m not sure what TL is but he has always walked on his toes so we ignore that. He was a show dog at one time and we assume it was part of his trained stance. He doesn’t really knuckle anymore. He does trip over his toes but is able to right himself.
The doctor says his wobbly walk is due to rigidity and this is common in IVDD dogs. If I can figure out how to post a video, I will show you.
addition:
I’m not sure how to post a video of his walking. His rear legs swing wide and barely bend at the stifle. There is nothing wrong with his joint The vet said his nerves are “forgetting” to bed his leg. I wanted to post a right after surgery and a current video.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 11, 2024 11:44:00 GMT -7
Debbie, thanks for all the clarifications. Would love to see a video of his rigid gait. It is not uncommon for arthritis to set in the vertebrae with IVDD dogs. If the gabapentin provides comfort, that is good. How many mgs gabapentin does he take 2x/day?Arthristis in IVDD dogs: An IVDD disc collapse changes disc's shape. This can increase the stress on the nearby facet joint between the vertebrae. A facet joint no longer supported by a healthy shaped disc can lead to muscle spasm back pain and the stiffness of arthritis. Oh, I see you just have written the Neuro says it is a neuro diminishment of not being able to bend his knees. VIDEO POSTING You will need a Google account which is used to sign in at YouTube (see below if you do not have one) Upload your video to YouTube.com —At the top of your browser when viewing your uploaded video you will see a "share" button below your video window. — Pressing it will expand to reveal the URL (it starts with <http...> ) you can paste into a Forum post. —How to details for mobile devices and computers: support.google.com/youtube/answer/57407?hl=enHow to get a Google Account: —Use an existing email address —Go to the Google Account creation page: accounts.google.com/signup/v2/webcreateaccount?flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=SignUp—Enter your name. —Choose to use 1) current email address OR 2) Create a new Gmall address. —Enter your current email address. —Click Next. —Verify your email address with the code sent to your existing email.VIDEO |
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Post by Debbie & Redd on Aug 11, 2024 11:59:40 GMT -7
Thank you so much for the instruction! Here are 3 videos - the first is the week after surgery, the second is PT about 7 weeks later, and the 3rd is about how’s he is walking now - probably at about 10 weeks. We are 13 weeks now. He still slides on floors and does much better on carpet or grass. We are still afraid to let him go without the harness or leave him unsupervised.
the first is the week after surgery
second is PT about 7 weeks later,
3rd is about how’s he is walking now - probably at about 10 weeks
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 12, 2024 10:05:14 GMT -7
Debbie, thank you for making the extra effort. The videos really help to know Redd's neuro status. He is on a very good path of nerve healing. With time he may well be even more steady on the legs as nerves continue to heal. It is entirely normal with leg nerve damage to be much better where there is good traction. And to be fearful, unsteady on smooth surfaces where there is not good traction. His nerves still need more time to heal and to obtain the best brain to leg messaging for leg control on tricky surfaces. Have you read the article about 3 traction solutions in a previous post? The nail grips sound as though they would really be of help on smooth floors. 3 traction solutions dodgerslist.com/traction-solution-improvements/ Why Nail Trims for health dodgerslist.com/nail-trim-for-health/Does Redd still do the underwater treadmill? If that is still within your budget, that therapy really targets not just exercise for strengthening of leg muscles via height of the water. But the moving underwater treadmill provides stimulus for nerve to muscle re-education in learning to perfect the art of walking. At-home PT ideas:--- Buy cheap cut of meat or chicken when on sale as really high value treats. Cook, cut into tiny treats and freeze to use as needed each day. --- Do all PT where there are no other distractions of kids or other dogs. --- Do PT slowly so that steps are deliberate; helps to re-train the nerves and muscles to work together in a more normal gait pattern. --- Use surfaces with good traction such as carpet or use of a Yoga mat or rug runners for PT. --- Do therapy at meal times. Feed dinner a few kibbles at a time, for stands, sits. --- Reward for pushing up from a sit to a stand. --- Use sticks, broom, pvc pipes spaced out on good traction carpet or outdoors on grass. Dog then will learn to lift paws, bend at leg joints as they walk SLOWLY over each one.
--- Single leg balance for the weaker leg. While standing, lift the stronger leg off the ground for a few seconds-this will force bearing weight on the weaker leg. Lower and repeat with the opposite side leg. --- Outdoors on leash/harness and if needed a sling. Walk across a gentle slope, walk up and down the slope. Walk on different textures...low grass, higher grass, on sand. --- Strengthening core muscles. This applies not just for humans, but REALLY applies to the IVDD dog: Core exercises don't require specialized equipment. These are 4 exercises you can do at home: 1) Sit toStand, 2) Down to Stand, 3) Three Leg Stand, 4) Backing UP. The last exercise presented in the video,⚠️ HIP extension, exercise is NOT for dogs with IVDD disease!
Dentals, anesthesia: dodgerslist.com/ivdd-precautions-anesthesia/Ramp training: Teach Redd to be safe and not jumping up or down, but to use a ramp whether over steps leading outdoors or to furniture in the house or in and out of a vehicle. dodgerslist.com/training-to-use-ramps/Living with the fear of IVDD perspectives: Dog owner: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/410/living-fear-ivddDr. Isaacs, Neuro (ACVIM): dodgerslist.com/fears-with-ivdd/Now for the everyday living with an IVDD dog things. Lots more ideas and tips in living with an IVDD dog such as safe ways to have fun together and more: dodgerslist.com/after-graduation-living-with-ivdd/We'd LOVE to get periodic updates on Redd's progress. Also, if you see a new member in a tough spot, give them hope. A few sentences about your Redd can be insanely supportive and inspiring in a time of need! Helpful posting tips: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/3277/helpful-memberYou are invited to help Dodgerslist. Less than a handful run Dodgerslist website and this Forum. Our mission is to educate about IVDD. So we depend on helping hands from Forum members in educating.
Here are some ways to help..
-- "Share" our FB posts: www.facebook.com/Dodgerslist
-- When in conversation at the grocery store line or wherever you may meet breeds most prone to IVDD (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas, Frenchies) give out our free little wallet cards.
Hand carry our literature and print out our letter of introduction for your vet.
for your vet and wallet cards for you
-- Would you consider helping another trying to make decisions about surgery?
We have a directory where you can share surgical info.
Here is where you can share your dog's info: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/13/member-reported-surgery-costs-recommendations
State:
Hospital:
Address:
Cost:
Date of surgery:
What was included in cost (MRI?, days stay, ER? PT? meds for home, sling, etc.)
Comments:
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Post by Debbie & Redd on Oct 4, 2024 8:24:00 GMT -7
Hi, here is a video of Redd walking. We are 20 weeks post surgery which was on May 13, 2024. Not 100% and likely as close as we will get. I keep hoping for continued improvement. He is getting PT and acupuncture weekly and we are looking into starting Chinese herbs. Just wanted to give an update.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 4, 2024 10:21:20 GMT -7
Debbie, thank you very much for the update and especially the video to see. Do know that it is the body that does the healing all on its own to the extent possible. There have been dogs out a year that have improved. So there is still time that Redd might improve more. The important thing is Redd is enjoying life and walking with you outdoors.
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