Howard's Bonnie RIP 4/14 conservative

Howard, welcome to Dodgerslist. We are glad you are here. I hope you have stared your program of self education as that is the very best defense against IVDD. Crate rest is the single most important part of the care. So let us know that you are doing it this way: 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The full details are here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm

After crate rest, the next is to make sure pain is fully controlled.  Let us know you do NOT see any of these signs during the day or nearing the next dose of the pain med, Tramadol.  - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy?  It is far better to be aggressive with pain meds at the max and punctuial dose of every 8 hours rather than on an on-needed basis.

Pepcid is generally considered a safe-over-the-counter suppressor of
stomach acid production for a healthy dog and good insurance. Dogs don't
speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we
notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from
bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach.  We ask that
all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety
measure. If you have a question about anything you read, let's talk!
This directory is in alpha order:
www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm
Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not to take Pepcid?"   If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving  doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID.   I'd get in on board today and keep your vet in the loop first thing Monday morning.

If you are finding she leaks on you when lifted and finding urine leaks in her bedding, then you need to express her bladder...as this is a serious health issue to avoid bladder infection and costing her permanent bladder dsyfunction. It takes overstretching of the bladder to cause reflexes to allow release of some urine...over stretching will ruin the bladder's tone and the urine remaining becomes a breeding ground for bacteria. If you see that she can sniff an old pee spot outdoors when you know she should have to pee but does not then release urine, it is because she may have lost bladder control. Gettting to a vet today for a less would then be very important. You'd get more out of the lesson by reviewing this video and tips first: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm   Diapers are not a good solution, they don't protect the bladder and come with their own set of problems.  Let us know what you think about her bladder control regarding the sniff and pee test.

Can you tell us bit more details on her neuro functions:
Can she move her legs at all?  Can she wobbly walk?
Can she specifically wag her tail after you have done some happy talk to her?

Hang in there, give Bonnie a big kiss and tell her things will be ok... because they will!  The reason is that dad and mom are going to quickly get up to speed on all things IVDD by going to our main webpage and reading. Make"Overview: the essentials" your starting point and the real everything as soon as possible: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm

If you are finding leaks in her bedding and that she leaks on you when lifted, then it would be necessary to go today for a hands on top of your hands type of expressing lesson. Loss off bladder control means mother nature is using reflexes to allow some urine to overflow out of the bladder. Overflowing only happens when the bladder is so over stretched to capacity that reflex activates release of some of the urine. The urine that remains will provide an environment for bacteria to grow quickly into a bladder infection (UTI) Even a vet tech at the ER can show you how to express a bladder.

Let us know about the pain, is 50 mg of tramadol every 8 hours controlling pain. Do let us know the detail are you giving it at every 8 hours or every 12 hours and is the pain under control?

I'm so delighted for Bonnie that you are taking reading seriously... you will be prepared to work as a team member... in fact the captain of the team along side your vet in making sure Bonnie gets the best care. An educated owner can actually discuss treatments with confidence and also monitor as the vet's eyes during home care.

That Is awful guys! We're going through some neck issues with our mini dach amilea. I'm not sure but I do not think X-rays can tell if a disc is ruptured. An exam by a nuro specialist and MRI would let you know exactly were you stand. That's what we're going to do anyway. At least then we will know exactly what's going on, then decide on treatment options. For now we are crate resting and the usual meds.

Your in our prayers, this website has some great links and support too. If we can help in anyway let us know. We're in Seattle FYI

ok just back from our vet. I didn't feel to at ease with him. the first thing he said was the Pepcid AC was ok, so that was good. Then after telling him the medication she was taken he kinda looked at us and said he would have quote "bombarded her with steroids for at least 4 to 5 days", but since we were already medicating her with the Metacam he didn't want to change it. He then told us after a week he wanted her to be taken off the Metacam and only the tramadol. He checked for DPP and said there was none and that was not a good sign and that we may resign to the fact that she most likely never gain motion in her rear legs. he wanted to show us the doggy carts already. he also indicated that after two weeks if there was no improvement that crating was not going to help. I am truly disappointed
I got to find someone else, but he is one of the more experienced vets in our area. he gave us an enema to give her if she doesn't poop in the next day. I am just so frustrated, I need to move to a big city I guess to get quality care.

Howard, kudos for getting Pepcid AC on board. It would make a world of difference if you can find an IVDD knowledgeable vet. Until that happens, you will have to advocate for what you know to be needed and ignore advice that could jeopardize her recovery.

The criteria for when to stop meds is pretty simple and is individual for each dog. When it is assumed all the swelling might be gone in the spinal cord, then a stop of both pain meds and anti-inflamamtory (Metacam) is done. That way there is a very clear picture of how swelling is doing.

As Linda mentioned the enema would likely cause too much movement of the back. Adding equal amount water as kibble for each meal PLUS 1x a day 1 teaspoon of high fiber can help. Plain pureed canned pumpkin, mashed ripe pear, microwaved and mashed sweet potato are all high-in-fiber choices.

We are conserned that you made no mention of a lesson on expressing the bladder.   By now if since she was leaking on you when lifted showing loss of  bladder control, she will already have a UTI developing...it happens very fast.  Without a urinalyis to assess if there are bacterial and anti-biotics if needed, infections can move up into the kidneys where it becomes life threatening.  Please let us know.

Congratulations on success with the expressing. Be sure to make sure she is fully empty by rechecking a few seconds later.

Some have had success with Benedryl. Ask your vet for the proper dosage.

Love your "no quit" attitude. This is what is going to help Bonnie and everyone get through this.

is this a over the counter benadryl? Found new vet, said he would stand beside me all the way.he told me to throw the enema away and have me something called "laxatone". One teaspoon one a day. I'll try some of the relaxers. I also downloaded the canine lullaby MP3. Maybe we'll both have a good nights sleep.

She does seem to be more comfortable today.

Thank you for your support

Howard a Shawna

Quick question , bonnie drinks very well but se has lost her desire for food. Is this normal, do I need to make her eat, she did have a bowel movement (normal). I put a gerbel water bottle she likes that . But the food thing. I have a basting syringe I can put soft food in

Yes still on metacam , about one day

ok I will do that. she has been sleeping a lot lately. I know the first couple of days she had pain and she would never lay down. now she does sleep comfortable. Drinks a lot of water.

If she is drinking so much water and you are having trouble expressing her are you finding her in a wet crate at all? That water has to come out sometime, if it isn't there is a problem. When do you see the vet next? Be sure you get a hands-on lesson expressing. Also be sure you tell them how often and how much urine you are seeing. What goes in must come out.

As for the metacam/tramadol issue, the problem is that the metacam is what was actually reducing the swelling which was putting the pressure on the disc. The tramadol is for pain but it's not doing anything to resolve the real issue. We usually like to see dogs off pain relievers (like the tramadol) a bit prior to the last dose of the anti-inflammatory (metacam) so we know if the nerve has really gotten relief. My opinion would be to also stop the tramadol and see what happens. If she still has pain then a different anti-inflammatory will be needed.

Glad you contacted the vet and are making some changes. Keep us posted on how things are going.

another long night for Bonnie, we just back from the emergency medical clinic with bonnie. she had become very listless and wasn't responding to voice. we got down there and we had blood work, an MRI and urine work done. CCV come back normal, she was not dehydrated and everything was normal, same with the urine. two thing we did not know.
1. bonnie this morning spit our her pain med and we didn't notice it till we lifted her out of her crate at the clinic. our fault and that will never happen again.

2. the Dr. came in and told us that the injury that bonnie had was actually a break, and not a rupture, and that the spinal column had been compromised. got to be a technical name for something not good. She felt that bonnie would most likely not be able to regain her rear legs movements. which my wife and I had discussed ahead of time had that happened. we let the vet know that we still will crate her and care for her in a way that she will be be up and walking again. keep the faith.

thank you for all your support

Howard and Shawna

Howard, my Clark too had a fractured vertebrae. There really is no way to tell how much of the spinal cord has been damaged other than if they could see the cord was severed to be able to say a dog will never walk again. It is a matter of time to see what the body can do in nerve regeneration as Sherry says. So do not give up hope, the reason to continue with crate rest is to give the disc every chance to heal and from there you have patience to see what nerves can do. Unfortunately my Clark's nerves could not regenerate enough to bring back walking. But as you can see that makes no difference to Clark... he LOVES life. He even is willing to take on the challenge of beating an ambulatory competitor: youtube.googleapis.com/v/xgOll2R5YyI%26hl

Can you update us on how Bonnie is today:
-- Is her pain still fully under control with Tramadol alone?
-- How's her body temperature? The normal rectal temperature for a dog is 100.5 to 102.5 degrees. Just wondering why she is listless. What did the vet think there reason was?
-- Can she still move up into a sitting position and then turn around in her crate, lie down fully stretching out her legs?

Did you get an Rx for sucralfate..... it works to protect damaged areas of the stomach lining that Metacam very likely caused. Sucralfate acts as a bandaid to help those areas heal. Is she eating better today?

Howard you are doing a wonderful job staying on top of observations and following up. Give Bonnie a hug from us all!

Howard, thank you for the update...that is good news indeed it was her spitting out her med and now that is rectified.

There is no reason to loose faith and I'm glad to hear you confirm that!

Expressing is a new skill for you, so it may be you'll need to express in the vet's office and then have the vet tech check your work, give you a refresher hands on top of your hands lesson. Expressing is physics. What you are doing is causing pressure in the bladder to exceed the ability of the urinary sphincter muscle. So being able to find the bladder and feel it in your fingers/hands is first. As the bladder is very full its shape is the entire tummy area. As the bladder voids than you can feel a shape of a small apricot. The very last stage is that the bladder goes so flat you can almost feel the fingers of your other hands. The amount of pressure to apply is what you are learning from the the vet or the vet tech's lesson on expressing. As you gain proficiency in expressing then you can move up the time between sessions. I would start at every 3 hours and then as you see she stays dry you will be able to move up to every 4-6 hours and even 8 hours.

Let us know if she is staying dry.

I love your positive attitude..... Bonnie will benefit greatly from her leader's demeanor to let her know things are going in a good direction.