|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 16, 2014 13:13:59 GMT -7
Hi Everyone! My silver dapple long-haired dachshund, Cleopatra has been doing so well since her surgery last year. Today she is acting very funny, and I am suspicious it is her back. I called her surgeon, but he is so busy that the only thing they could offer was to drop her off and they would look at her as soon as possible. So instead, I am taking her to her regular vet in about an hour and a half. She is definitely in pain, (she shivers when touched) but there is no loss of movement in her legs. She is confined to her crate at the moment, and she will go straight from there to the doctor.
I am so hopeing that this can be treated conservatively, and I just want Cleo to feel better. Keep us in your thoughts and I will report back after the appointment!
|
|
Sabrina
Helpful Member 
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471 
|
Post by Sabrina on Apr 16, 2014 13:33:56 GMT -7
Hi Cleo's mom! (I'm sorry I can't remember your name!)
You are doing just the right thing crating Cleo and getting her into the vet today to sort out what's going on and to get her pain controlled.
Is she showing any signs of loss of neuro function? Wobbly walking/legs crossing, nails scuffing, knuckling?
))Hugs!(( Let us know what the vet says!
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 16, 2014 16:47:02 GMT -7
Thank you for the response Sabrina, my name is Stevie. We just came back from the vet, and it IS a back issue, but it is extremely mild thank goodness. When we left to go to the vet, I picked her up and she didn't yelp, and when I put her down to tinkle she got into position and peed with no problem. She actually seemed to have improved before we even left.
When we got there, the vet felt her spine all the way down, and at one point she yelped. The spot that is painful is much lower (toward her tail) than the previous surgical site. However, her neuro functions are perfect, and all her nerves responded correctly. The vet gave her Gabapentin and Tramadol, but said she did not want to give her a NSAID because if she did lose any functions she wanted to know about it. So she is on crate rest for at least a month!
I feel much better now, and I have positioned Cleo's crate in front of a window. So now the challenge is to keep her entertained and immobile.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Apr 16, 2014 20:29:46 GMT -7
Hi Stevie! Sorry to hear Cleo is having another back episode.. The good news is you caught it early and crated her as well as getting her to the Vet. I am concerned about the lack of an anti inflammatory. Swelling and inflammation is causing the pain, and the only thing that heals inflammation is an anti inflammatory. Once the inflammation is gone, the pain will be gone.. It can take from 7 days to 30 days on an anti inflammatory to get the swelling down..Insist on a NSAID or a Steroid (Never both). Please read this for more information: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmIt will be obvious if Cleo loses function, anti inflammatory or not.. so witholding the one thing that will help the swelling go down is not a good idea. Crate rest should be for 8 weeks, it takes that long for the disc to form secure scar tissue.. The best tool for healing short of when surgery is indicated is – Crate rest— 100% STRICT crate rest for 8 weeks. That means 24/7 in the crate except for potty breaks. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no Chiro, no VOM. The rest of the details of doing crate rest: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmOne reason some vets may be reluctant to give a full prescription of time is knowing many owners will not follow through. Perhaps not fully understanding the reason for it, is why people tend not to do it. Observation of 1000’s of Dodger dogs over years, has shown a conservative approach to crate-rest time, results in fewer relapses. Dodgers prefers the safer, more conservative recommendations of neuros and other vets using 6 weeks post op or 8 weeks for Conservative treatment crate rest. Healing thoughts over the miles.. |
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 16, 2014 22:39:42 GMT -7
Thank you! I actually already decided to do the full 8 weeks, since I've been through post-op recovery before I know we can do it. Although, it is more difficult this time because she feels good, no pain since before the vet, and she can walk. So she doesn't understand why she is confined and she is more restless than last time.
I was concerned about the lack of anti-inflammatory too. I really like this vet, but I am not sure she knows too much about IVDD. She asked me if I still had meds from last time, and I do. We were going to go the conservative route last May, but then her condition quickly deteriorated and we went into surgery, so I still have all those pills. One is Rimadyl, I might call the vet tomorrow and ask if it is OK to add this, as well as something for stomach protection. Thank you very much for the input, Cleo and I need all we can get!
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Apr 17, 2014 4:58:05 GMT -7
Stevie, I'm so sorry that hear that Cleopatra is having another disc problem. Most definitely do call the vet tomorrow and request that the Rimadyl be added along with Pepcid AC. It's most important that the swelling be brought down. That swelling is pressing on the spine and anything pressing on the nerves of the spine can cause nerve damage. If you're concerned that this particular vet may not be familiar with treating IVDD (and the comment she made about not giving an anti-inflammatory because if there is loss of neuro function, she wants to know does sounds as though she is not familiar with IVDD), you should seek an emergency consult with a Board-certified neurologist or the surgeon who did Cleo's surgery. Just explain that you're taking the conservative approach this time as it's a mild episode and you just need their expertise on getting the correct meds prescribed. Having the correct vet on board will make all the difference in Cleopatra's recovery. It can be a challenge to get them to relax in the crate when they're feeling good. Check out this page for some tips that may be helpful: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htmGood job on deciding to do the full 8 weeks of crate rest. Please know that crate rest for conservative treatment is much stricter than post-op crate rest. It must be 100% strict crate rest, only carried in and out to do potty with very few steps taken at potty time. Please keep us posted today on how you make out getting an anti-inflammatory and Pepcid AC on board. Healing prayers for Cleopatra. |
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 17, 2014 21:18:09 GMT -7
OK, I called the vet today, and told her that we still had meds left over from the last time that Cleo had back issues and would it be OK if we used them? She said yes, and so now Cleo is on:
Gabapentin, 5 ml twice a day
Rimadyl, 1/2 a 25mg pill twice a day
Methocarbamol 1/4 500mg pill 3 times a day
We got rid of the Tramadol all together, because whether in liquid or pill form, I just can't get her to take it. I am just about the give her the first dose of her new pills, and I gave her a quarter of a Pepcid 30 minutes ago (also doctor approved)
She is doing just fine, no pain, but a lot of frustration due to being in the crate. I am getting better at refusing to acknowledge her whining. When I leave the room, she stops! The I give her a treat for being a good girl.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Apr 17, 2014 21:35:18 GMT -7
Thank you for the update, Stevie, I am glad Cleo is no longer in pain with the change in the medications. You are re-training her to quietly accept the crate.. It does take time but it really sounds like you are teaching her that being quiet will get her the attention and the treat she wants.. Good job!  |
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Apr 18, 2014 4:12:49 GMT -7
If Cleo needs to go back on the Tramadol, there are a few tricks to get them to take this very bitter pill. Hide the pill in a small mashed banana ball, a cream cheese ball, liverwurst ball or inside of a sticky marshmallow and sealed. Use the three treat method. 2 treats with no meds inside PLUS the med ball. Give plain treat while holding med ball in front of eyes. The idea is your dog will be greedy after the first treat to get the 2nd. Immediately hold the 3rd plain treat so she will hurry to swallow the med ball to get to treat #3. Good video on how to pill a dog: Great job on advocating for Cleo, Stevie, and on training her. She's in good hands!  |
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 18, 2014 10:40:35 GMT -7
She is not in a bit of pain, and this is a dog that lets you know immediately if something is wrong! I tried the three-pill trick with Tramadol after surgery last time, and she would not do it. I can get her to take any other pill but Tramadol. So this time, I asked for liquid, and the first day I shot it into her mouth, she started foaming and drooling and she coughed and shook her head for 20 minutes afterward. I don't know what it is with that medication but if I can control her pain with something else, I'm going to keep it up.
|
|
|
|
Post by John & Marley on Apr 18, 2014 11:10:06 GMT -7
The thing with Tramadol is it is BITTER Tasting. So when I gave it, I didn't give it with any other pills so he wouldn't know which time he was getting Tramadol. What I did was to give him 4 treats by hand and the Tramadol was in the 2nd or 3rd Treat letting him see all the treats in my palm he was eager to get to the next one. GULP GULP GULP GULP........ He gets Fed Raw Food so I just took out a portion of his meals and kept it aside and divided it up as his treats and inserted the pills. He didn't think it wasn't anything different than his normal meals cause it was the same item as his din din. If it was in cheese he could think it out OH CHEESE and those pills ewwww & spit out the pill.... The other reason I took out of his Dinners so he wasn't over eating and gaining weight between getting Gabapentin, , Tramadol and Prednisone - that's a lot of pills and a lot of treats and extra calories over a few weeks for a dog under strict crate rest.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 18, 2014 22:37:36 GMT -7
Cleo is doing great! thank you to everyone for your much-needed advice.
This has been such a crazy couple of months for us. At the end of January, my Uncle died unexpectedly. He was never married and had no children, and my father and I were his closest relatives. He was kind of a hermit, and he always liked animals more than humans. So when the hospital called us and said he had passed away (he was only 57) the first thing I thought of was that we needed to go get his animals.
So now, besides 2 dachshunds, I am the proud owner of a pug and a tiny chihuahua-yorkie mix puppy. Luckily, we have sort of a family compound with a barn we use as an office, so the 2 new dogs are separated. They come by to visit so we can all slowly acclimate to having such a big family!
With Cleo crated, I feel like about 90% of my day is taken up with caring for dogs. But I feel so lucky to have all these sweet friends, and I am so grateful that Cleo is feeling better, I am happy to do whatever it takes!
|
|
Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
|
Post by Sabrina on Apr 19, 2014 20:09:24 GMT -7
Hi Stevie! I'm so glad to hear that Cleo is doing well! My condolences at the death of your uncle - sounds like his dogs have found a great home with you, and I'm glad that you have the space so that all the dogs can have their own living arrangements while everyone adapts.
))Hugs!((
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 21, 2014 14:59:27 GMT -7
Cleo is still flourishing, no pain and no loss of neuro functions. I have one quick question, Cleo gets very stressed when we leave (which is rare since we both work at home) and WAY too excited when we come back. We both went to church on Easter, and were gone for about 2 hours, and when we came back she was sitting up on her hind legs in her crate. It scared me but she did not seem to do any damage. However she panted and whined for hours after we got home.
This is the question: is it OK for her to be in the car with us (in her crate of course) if we have to drive a long distance? She would never be alone, but sometimes for business we have to go pick up supplies and I don't want to leave her by herself that long. Is the motion of the vehicle OK or would it be bad for her back?
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
|
Post by PaulaM on Apr 21, 2014 21:20:15 GMT -7
It is not optimum to transport Cleo. But if you need to, make sure her crate is padded with rolled up blankets so that when turns are taken or when braking her body will not shift. You can lower the crate ceiling so she can't sit up or try a drapped blanket.. These ideas are explained in our supplies list. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htmUsing any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best in helping a dog to relax. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php |
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Apr 21, 2014 21:22:31 GMT -7
Hi Stevie!
It's ok to travel with Cleo if you pad out her crate with rolled up towels or soft blankets to buffer her from bumps and so forth..Set up the area of the car where the crate would rest and make sure the crate can't shift around. We did take Tyler with us in his crate on a couple of occasions during his episode.
I know what you mean, I cringed also when Tyler would get so excited when we would come home or when anyone would come over.. We would go to him and calm him down first.. Once he was greeted he would be fine after that and calm down.. He had to have his loving first. They just hate it when we leave don't they?
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 29, 2014 10:23:29 GMT -7
Just a quick update on Cleo's progress, she is doing beautifully! The lady I dog sit for recommended a rehab center here where they do acupuncture and laser therapy, and Cleo has an appointment for an evaluation next Monday. I am sending all her medical history to them, and I will report what they tell me.
After some reflection, the only thing I think is odd is that the day she had pain, I could feel Cleo's back moving/twitching like she was having a spasm. That never happened before. Is there a way to address spasms specifically? Like with medication, or does acupuncture or laser address this?
|
|
|
|
Post by Jean & Mimi on Apr 29, 2014 12:34:46 GMT -7
Stevie, does Cleo seem to be in pain when her back is twitching? Is she still on the methocarbamol? It could be muscle spasms and if she is in pain and not on the muscle relaxer, then you should contact your vet right away.
The back twitching is not familiar to me but our other moderators might have some more advice and knowledge on this topic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hester & Hope+Dashel on Apr 29, 2014 13:06:07 GMT -7
Way to go on crating her right away! This is my fourth dog with a disc episode (and yet, I love the breed and will own more in my life I'm sure), and yet, I doubted what I was seeing, and just put her on "restricted" crate rest instead of really going all out, and she did lose function.  She's responding well to crate rest (week 1 in progress), and has regained some motion, but man, did I ever feel like an idiot when I realized that I might have saved her all this trouble if I'd just shut her in her crate right away and treated her like you have been treating Cleopatra. |
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 29, 2014 13:56:46 GMT -7
Thank you for your response Jean, the muscle spasms only happened once on the day I crated her, and yes they were painful. She is on Methocarbomol, and there have been no more spasms. I was just wondering if that was something that needed to be treated particularly, so that they wouldn't happen again. There were no muscle spasms during her last back event when she had surgery.
I totally understand your love of dachshunds Hester! I have another one too, an older male named Augustus. It is totally thanks to my friends here on the forum that I knew to crate her right away. This is Cleo's second go around, and I am happy to say that I know a lot more about IVDD this time!
|
|
|
|
Post by Colleen & Beast on Apr 30, 2014 13:17:12 GMT -7
Hi Stevie,
I just read that you're in Colorado. Curious who your surgeon is and where s/he is located? I have a great general vet in Denver that is working well with me, but it never hurts to have a surgeon in mind if needed in the future.
Thanks!
Colleen
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Apr 30, 2014 13:59:12 GMT -7
Hey Colleen, Cleo had surgery last May with Dr. Lane at VRCC in Englewood. It was very expensive, about $7,000, but I have to say that they were fantastic, and Cleo recovered beautifully! I know there is another neurologist in Denver who is less expensive, but I don't know anything about her. The place I am about to go for a rehab consultation is in Castle Pines, and comes highly recommended by a friend of mine who had a paralyzed Corgie. I live south of Denver, so Castle Pines is actually closer to me. I will report how things go there next week!
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
|
Post by PaulaM on Apr 30, 2014 16:02:13 GMT -7
Colleen and Stevie you could help a new member by sharing surgery costs and recommending an IVDD knowledgable general vet if you have one. Here is the Dodgerslist directory: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-posting IVDD general DVM vet recommendations=== Name of Vet Name of Clinic Street Address City: State or country: Type of vet (general/board certified surgeon, acupuncture, etc.) Comments: SURGERY==== State: Hospital: Address: Cost: Date of surgery: What was included in cost (MRI?, days stay, ER? PT? meds for home, sling, etc.) Comments: |
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on May 1, 2014 23:27:39 GMT -7
Well, I am sorry to report we have had a setback. Cleo has just completed 2 weeks of crate rest out of 8, and she was doing so well. I ran out of both Rimadyl, and Methocarbamol about 2 days ago, and she was in no pain but she was still taking gabapentin. My vet is great and keeps calling me to see how she is doing. Then tonight, we came in from dinner and she was so excited to see us, she jumped straight up in the air in her crate and let out a scream. Her back was sensitive to the touch again, and she was whimpering. She could still walk and wag her tail just fine, so I immediately gave her the evening dose of Gabapentin and I still had some liquid Tramadol from the vet, so as much as she detests it, I shot a dose of it into her mouth.
I just took her out to tinkle, and she took a few steps but did not go. She whimpered slightly when I lifted her. She is now resting quietly in her crate. I am calling the vet first thing in the morning to see if we can go back on the other meds.
I am so frustrated! The only thing that I feel positive about is that we are going to start therapy (acupuncture/laser) next week. I feel guilty about ever leaving the house, and I dread coming home. My husband was so upset when she screamed, he loves Cleo so much and he has such a hard time whenever she is in pain. I will report in the morning about how she is doing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jean & Mimi on May 2, 2014 5:20:00 GMT -7
Stevie, I am so sorry that Cleo is having a setback. Please let us know what the vet says this am and how she is feeling today.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on May 2, 2014 11:33:02 GMT -7
Things are better this morning, Cleo did not yelp when I picked her up to go out, and she had more gabapentin and the hated tramadol. I talked to the vet, and she is going back on Rimadyl, and Methocarbamol. Again, her neuro functions are perfect, but she is more subdued that usual. Our appointment at the rehab center got changed to thursday of next week, because a friend of mine called in to make sure the vet she recommended was available, and they are that day. I feel more positive today, as long as Cleo is feeling good I feel good!
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
|
Post by PaulaM on May 2, 2014 14:30:05 GMT -7
Stevie more subdued, not her normal perky self, reluctance to move can well be signs of pain. Is this her current med list: Gabapentin, 5 ml twice a day Rimadyl, 12.5mg twice a day Methocarbamol 125mg 3 times a day Tramadol stopped Pepcid AC 5mgs 2x day Tramadol is not likely to control pain well unless dosed 3x a day since it has such a short half life of 1.7 hours. Gabapentin also has a short half life and it is thus usually prescribed 3x a day. "Gabapentin Elimination half-lives range between 2-3 h in rats, 3-4 h in dogs, and 5-6 h in man.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3730018" With the weekend coming you will want to know all your options for each of the pain meds in range of mgs and frequency in case pain surfaces so that you would not need an expensive ER trip to help Cleo. |
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on May 3, 2014 14:47:24 GMT -7
Hi Paula! Yes, the med list is right, except after I got the other drugs back we quit the Tramadol. And she is taking 5 mg Pepcid AC 30 minutes before each dose of Rimadyl.
She feels like her old self again, she is no longer subdued and is definitely not in any pain. My solution to her jumping with excitement when we come home is to just take her with us, or have her stay with her grandparents while we are gone.
Both my husband and I sing and play music in church, and today there was a rehearsal that was several hours long. So, I packed up Cleo and her crate and took her to the rehearsal. She was absolutely great, except when we played in the key of D she howled. We were all laughing so hard we couldn't sing. I guess she hates the key of D!
|
|
|
|
Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on May 8, 2014 19:26:43 GMT -7
Hi everyone, just an update on Cleo. We are on week 3 of crate rest, and today we went to the animal care and rehab center for Cleo's evaluation. It was a great experience, our appointment was over an hour and was with both a vet and a rehab specialist. They recommended laser treatments, and Cleo had her first one. It relaxed her immediately! She gets another treatment next week.
The vet also recommended transitioning slowly to a raw food diet, They watched Cleo's gait very closely, and after reviewing her surgical records, they determined that she is compensating for her previous injury. Once we are through with crate rest, we may do some physical therapy to try to get her to walk normally. Right now, she plants her back legs very wide apart to steady herself, something she has done since her surgery. The rehab specialist said she would show me some exercises and give me a post-crate-rest exercise plan.
Overall, I felt very good about the appointment. Cleopatra has been doing very well, we even started taking her crate to bed with us at night. I get to sleep in my own bed again, something I haven't done since she had surgery last year.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
|
Post by PaulaM on May 8, 2014 20:38:31 GMT -7
I would wait on any change in diet until off of all meds and crate rest. You want to avoid confusion of GI Tract problems that are merely temporary vs. a serious GI tract problem that could happen on IVDD meds.
Glad to hear Cleo had a good experience with laser. And we look forward to hearing about the post crate rest exercise plan to introduce Cleo back in to activity again.
|
|
She's responding well to crate rest (week 1 in progress), and has regained some motion, but man, did I ever feel like an idiot when I realized that I might have saved her all this trouble if I'd just shut her in her crate right away and treated her like you have been treating Cleopatra.
