|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 6, 2013 10:39:55 GMT -7
I know this subject has been alluded to in several threads but was hoping I could compile information into one thread. My 5-yr. old mini longhair Doxie, Kobe, is on crate rest. I realize I have not been as strict as I need to be but he is going crazy in his crate even with a too-liberal form of crate rest. If I'm not home, he's fine but in the same room with me, he cries, yelps, barks - and glares  I struggle to sleep as he will whimper for hours. He was initially diagnosed with a soft tissue injury a month ago but 2 weeks ago, he hopped out of his crate and went down on his right front paw. He toes-under but only trips when he turns or is on uneven surfaces. He has pain sensation in all limbs/tail and can squat to urinate and defecate with little or no problem. Appetite is good but mood is poor. Actually, his paw/leg have the look of a broken leg/bad ligament tear but I feel safer operating on the assumption of IVDD. His vet wants conservative treatment for now (I'll be able to at least afford x-rays next week). Will you all post some suggestions you've seen work? He was on a small dose of Xanax for several days when I was travelling and that seemed to offer him some relief. I told the vet that I need to be on crate rest and sedatives too! Thanks so much. Sally Murphy and Kobe |
|
PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,565
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 6, 2013 12:36:47 GMT -7
Sally, welcome to Dodgerlist. Did the vet feel this could be a disc episode? Knuckling would be a sign of something pressing on the spinal cord to cause nerve damage. Xraysare use to rule out other problems that can mimic a disc problem (fracture, tumor, infection) and may require a different treatment. Great info on nerve healing: What meds were prescribed? The exact names, dose in mg's and how often you give each? If on an anti-inflammtory..Pepcid AC as you will read in links below is a must have. Do familiarize yourself with how conservative treatment works for a disc episode. The single most important part is the 100% STRICT rest for 8 weeks so that the disc can heal. Here is a very good overview on all four phases of healing including good info on nerve healing www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmUsing any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Farnum's Comfort Zone with D.A.P. www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html [pheromone diffuser] with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com Plain Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) with no additional medications added. Buy at your grocery store or pharmacy. Get the dosage from your vet. The wrong dose can have dangerous side effects, so your vet needs to prescribe the proper amount for your dog. Other brands may be available in your area… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label. |
|
Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
|
Post by Marjorie on Nov 6, 2013 14:14:41 GMT -7
Hi, Sally I'd just like to add that some dogs like having the tops of their crates covered with a towel. That creates a den-like feeling that dogs love. Are you using a wire crate? Dogs seem to do better in those than the plastic ones that are more closed in. There are a lot of good tips on this page, that might be helpful, too: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htmSome dogs do object quite strenuously at first to being in the crate but most settle down and accept it after awhile. Be strong - you're doing what's best for him. All the best to you and Kobe. |
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 6, 2013 15:10:01 GMT -7
Thanks, all. I am completely terrified. Do dogs who are knucking under ever recover with a conservative approach? Will my boy ever be able to play and cuddle again? As this happened rather suddenly, is it more likely to be a disc issue and not a tumor? I cannot afford an MRI right now - can barely afford x-rays. What do people do in this situation? I am devastated.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jean & Mimi on Nov 6, 2013 15:35:25 GMT -7
Hi, I'm not a moderator, just another mom dealing with this disease. Our moderators can give you tons of advice but I will give you a bit of my personal story. My dog Mimi(a mini Daschund) is starting her 7th week of crate rest. We went through ups and downs with her meds and progress/regression with tapers. We are in the process of a taper right now.
I can tell you that about 3.5 weeks ago, Mimi's left rear leg was of no use to her. It would knuckle constantly during potty times and she would just drag it a few steps to go pee. Now, while she still doesn't correct it very well during vet knuckle tests, I can tell you she does not knuckle at all when she is out to potty or moving in her crate. Yes, she still wobbles and her walk isn't perfect, but even our vet was surprised at how well she was doing during our last visit.
I guess I wanted to tell you not to give up hope. Dogs can and do recover from knuckling. They may never have a "perfect" gait again, but who cares right? As long as they are happy, pain free and can give kisses and steal treats that all that matters.
|
|
Sabrina
Helpful Member 
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
|
Post by Sabrina on Nov 6, 2013 17:03:34 GMT -7
Hi Sally, I'm Sabrina. ))Hugs!(( When my Charley was first diagnosed, this page was such an encouragement to me!: YES, Your Dog CAN Have a Great Quality of Life! - www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmSo if this is IVDD, "True success with IVDD is measured by the most important goal of returning your dog to a pain free, happy and full-of-love quality of life after crate rest. Should paralysis occur, please know that dogs do not view the lack of ability to walk as a minus as humans do. Dogs adjust to what is and then get on with the business of fully enjoying all that life has to offer until nerves repair!" www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmWhat medications is Kobe on? Is he showing any signs of pain? As for Nerve healing, there isn't any set timeline - "Thousands of dogs on Dodgerslist have regained functions in as little as 2 weeks, others 11 months, and still others 3 years later. IVDD is a disease of patience to allow the body to heal on its own terms.": www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm))Hugs!(( - Sabrina |
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Nov 6, 2013 18:20:31 GMT -7
Sally, IVDD is usually diagnosed based mostly on breed of dog and symptoms. X-rays can be taken to rule out other things, such as tumors. MRIs are expensive and usually are only done prior to surgery so the surgeon can see exactly what's going on. You mentioned that the leg looks like it's broken or the ligament is torn. What did the vet think it was? Sometimes with IVDD, when nerve damage occurs, the foot can turn inwards. Kobe is only exhibiting knuckling, which is a mild symptom of IVDD. He can still walk, he still has bladder and bowel control and he still has deep pain sensation. So that makes him a very good candidate for conservative care. Many dogs have recovered on conservative care with more nerve damage than Kobe is showing. But you will need to commit yourself to 100% strict crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks. That is the SINGLE most important thing you can do to help your dog-- it is the hallmark component of conservative treatment. Carried in and out to potty. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal… only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen…there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest… as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal. Your boy has every chance of making a full recovery. Learn all you can by reading the links given to you above. And it would be very helpful to us if you would let us know the names and dosages of his meds and whether he is showing any signs of pain as Paula and Sabrina have asked. The more info we have, the better we can help you. All the best to you and Kobe. |
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 6, 2013 18:48:10 GMT -7
Thank you so much. I was truly losing it there for a bit. Kobe doesn't seem to be in any physical pain at all but maybe some emotional pain. He's been on .3 mls Metacam since 10/6 and I halved that today with no increase in symptoms of pain. I just installed a pheromone diffuser and accompanied that with the spray version. I also got some treats with the above recommended ingredient. One other issue: while not morbidly obese, his vet had already wanted him to lose about 3 pounds (he's lost 2 since I rescued him). I want to ease his boredom but minimize calories. I froze pure pumpkin in his Kong but don't want to just give treats, etc especially since he can't exercise. He's breaking my heart crying right this minute. Will his personality recover from all this?
I'm afraid Kobe's crate is too small. He's curled up and now I'm worried he's hurting his back by being in too small a space.
Stating the obvious, I'm anxious about every move Kobe makes. Not sure if what I'm doing is right or wrong. I just tried to take him out. It's raining and he hates going out in rain and didn't urinate in the 45 seconds we were out. Will he get a UTI? He has no problems squatting, he just doesn't pee on command.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Nov 6, 2013 21:12:07 GMT -7
Hi Sally, His crate should be big enough that Kobe can lay down with his feet out and turn around comfortably.. Here are a couple of links that have pictures and info on how to set up his crate recovery suite so he can heal in comfort. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm Marjorie's link on emergency crate training has lots of valuable hints on how to handle his anxiety while in the crate and how to retrain him to accept it. Hopefully it will stop raining soon and you can try to carry Kobe out again. To limit his footsteps make sure he has his harness on and he is leashed so he won't dart away. No collars except to hold his tags, any dog with back problems should only use a harness. The other option is to use the poke in the ground garden fencing or a puppy pen to enclose him so he is limited in area, just place it in a favorite potty area so he would be inclined to potty in as few footsteps as possible.. If his urine smells strong that is one of the symptoms of a UTI.. If in doubt you could always take a sterile sample of his urine to the vet to be tested. Sending you comforting thoughts.. It does get better with time and learning about IVDD. |
|
Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
|
Post by Sabrina on Nov 6, 2013 21:39:20 GMT -7
Oh Sally, I hear you! I would have totally lost my marbles without Dodger'sList! Like Pauliana said, it really does get better. One thing that helped me tremendously was printing out this sign and putting it on my fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdf It tells the signs and symptoms of different emergency situations that you can face during a disc episode. It helped me so much to read and re-read that sign so that I knew what to look out for - it helped me feel more confident, knowing what to watch out for. ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina |
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 7, 2013 8:19:56 GMT -7
I am so grateful to all of you! I'm feeling a little calmer this morning. I moved Kobe's crate right next to the bed and the diffuser and he was calm through the night. I'm also trying to find a bigger crate. He's such a fast little booger I practically have to hurl myself across the crate door to keep him from leaping over the lip which is what precipitated this situation in the first place. I'll post a picture of the glaring looks I'm getting. Again, thanks and love to you all.
Sally
|
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 7, 2013 16:42:45 GMT -7
Kobe is barking his head off. We live in an apartment and this can't go on. My neighbors won't tolerate it. Help!! Also, what is the wisdom on soft-side crates? As this episode was precipitated by a hop over a wire crate lip, I could bend a fabric lip down for him. I improvised a ramp from outside to in and while it's a trick to get it in place before he tries to get in, seems to work. I feel like I'm a total pest.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Nov 7, 2013 19:41:23 GMT -7
Hi Sally,
You aren't a pest at all, please don't feel that way.. That's why we are here volunteering, to help out. We all have been through this with our dogs and know the turmoil.. I had a wild day today, so I haven't been on since last night.. sorry about that..
A softsided crate can work as long as he can't chew his way out of it.. A stroller can work too as long as it is on a smooth surface in the house and he can travel around the house with you, that may ease his anxiety feeling more a part of the household activity.
One thing about the barking is he knows he gets a reaction from you if he barks. If you walk away and ignore him when he barks and reward him with praise when he is quiet he will soon learn it's quiet behavior that earns your praise. It takes some time to train this but if you are consistant he will learn. Play soft and calming music..
Another option is the calming aids Paula suggested to you earlier in your thread. If that doesn't work, perhaps a call to your Vet for his or her suggestion.
Hope some of these ideas will work for you.
Soothing thoughts to you and Kobe.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 8, 2013 5:35:02 GMT -7
We made it through another night. I'm distressed that your night wasn't restful, Pauliana. The worry of the day is: Kobe has always been such a plucky, brave and loving little boy. Will his personality survive this intact? He's so mopey. I am so mopey - we have always cuddled and I miss holding him so much. I'm using the diffuser/spray/calming treats but not sure if any result yet. Can I spray MY bed with calming spray? |
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
|
Post by Marjorie on Nov 8, 2013 5:48:57 GMT -7
Hi, Sally
Dogs can really pick up on their human's feelings so do try to keep positive. Use a happy voice around him and tell him every day that he's getting better. And believe it yourself! Give him lots of kisses when you bring him out of the crate to do potty.
I noticed that you mentioned getting him a bigger crate. The crate should only be big enough for Kobe to stand up, turn around and lie down with his legs stretched out.
I hope Kobe adjusts to the crate soon. All the best to you both.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 8, 2013 6:02:20 GMT -7
Thanks, Marjorie. I am unsure about his crate. It's 24" x 16 1/2" x 20". It looks like he struggles to stretch out and turn around. When he curls up, it seems pretty tight and his back is bent somewhat. Maybe one size up?
As my questions were "gear-related", I thought I'd begin a new thread. Kobe is on strict crate rest and I've been getting a lot of support on that topic. I'm baffled by crate-size and metal vs. fabric, etc. He is pretty squeezed in his 24" x 16 1/2" x 20" crate and when he curls up, his back is quite bent. Also, a bounce over the lip of his crate kicked off this episode and I can't seem to find any wire-type crates that assemble at "ground level" without that 2" piece. Any suggestions for crate type and size? Kobe is a miniature Doxie but weighs about 18# (we're working on that - he weighed 22# when I rescued him).
|
|
StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
|
Post by StevieLuv on Nov 8, 2013 8:28:12 GMT -7
The crate that I used for Stevie was 18" wide and 30" long - it gave her just enough room to stretch out and I could attach her bowls in the corners. She weighs 14 pounds, and has a long body too. Hope that this helps a bit |
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 8, 2013 8:34:55 GMT -7
Perfect, Stevie, and thanks!
Sally and Kobe
|
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 11, 2013 15:08:05 GMT -7
Me again and I am really struggling. Kobe stays calm when by himself but when we're in the same room, he cries and whines. I feel so bad separating him from the family and am afraid his plucky loving little personality won't recover even if his back does. We're only on day 5 and I don't know how we're going to make it. I need some hugs and I want to hug my little boy so much. Encouragement please!!
|
|
Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
|
Post by Sabrina on Nov 11, 2013 16:03:57 GMT -7
Oh Sally, I know how hard this is! But, as completely impossible as it seems, one of the best things you can do for Kobe is to be calm and confident when around him - to focus your mind on why you are giving him the crate rest he needs. For me, I found the more knowledge I had the better I was able to appear calm around my Charley. So if you are feeling sorry for him, stop yourself and think: "the crate rest is giving Kobe's body the time it needs to develop scar tissue to protect his disc." www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingdisc.htmI had the same fears about my Charley-dog's personality, but he is back to his normal self - the 8 weeks on 100% crate rest haven't damaged his spirit or personality in any way! And in fact, Charley grew to be mostly content while he was on crate rest. Have you seen this page? www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htm#Emergencyconfinement It is full of strategies for helping your Kobe rest while on crate rest. I can give a personal recommendation for the calming music cds from Through a Dog's Ear (linked from that link). I was amazed at how well they worked - they weren't a magic solution, but I really believe they helped Charley to be calmer - and I know for a fact that they helped me be calmer! Whatever strategies you try, train yourself to be smiling and confident around Kobe, even if you feel like you'd rather be bawling and falling to pieces! Kobe needs you to be strong for him, and this DodgersList community is here for you so that you never feel like you are going this alone! ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina |
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 12, 2013 5:45:26 GMT -7
Thank you, Sabrina. I think I'm going to need a lot of hand-holding through this. I worry about every move he makes and every move I make. I worry he'll go snout first when I return him to his crate in my arms- a little ramp seemed safer but I worry about that. I panic when he takes a step when I put his halter on or when I have to shift his weight to open a door. I yell "stop" at him and I've never yelled at him in his life. My mind obsesses on "is his crate too big or too small"; "is it OK if he stretches or shakes himself off when he stands up", "should he stand up at all and if not, how can I safely pick up him up when he's laying down", it snowed and snow accumulates on his chest/legs- how do I dry him off if I can't hold him or roll him over". I know strict is strict but how do I manage the mechanics/logistics of keeping him safe and healing? I want to give him the absolute best opportunity to recover and just don't know how to do all these everyday things. I let him take several steps to potty and worry about that. I am so grateful for your help and hugs.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jean & Mimi on Nov 12, 2013 7:45:51 GMT -7
Hi Sally, just another mom here, not the expert like our moderators But, I can tell you what they told me. You are doing the very best you can and the fact that you care so much shows what a great job you are doing. If he shakes himself (full body dog flap) or moves in his crate, then that is out of your control and may also show that he's not in pain. As for drying him off, try placing him on a blanket or towel right outside his crate (with all your towels and stuff nearby) then dry him off and place him back in. You are doing such an awesome job...go easy on yourself (((HUGS))) Jean |
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 12, 2013 8:43:52 GMT -7
Thank you so much for the encouragement! I will drive this board absolutely stark-raving crazy. Kobe insists on curling up in one end of his crate. That can't be good for his back but apparently he's comfortable that way. Any suggestions?
|
|
|
|
Post by Jean & Mimi on Nov 12, 2013 9:01:02 GMT -7
Well, if he is curling up on his own, then he is comfortable and it works for him (also a good sign of no pain). You shouldn't worry about how he decides to lay in his crate. Your job is just to keep him crated. If you are doing that, then he will recover the rest on his own. Hang in there (he just gorgeous by the way).
|
|
StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
|
Post by StevieLuv on Nov 12, 2013 9:54:46 GMT -7
It's okay if he is curling up - that means it doesn't hurt to move like that , so does his stretching out and full body flap when he wakes up. The towels like newbiemom suggested will help alot! I had to cope with the wet and snow too when Stevie had her IVDD episode in January, and she is a fuzzy pekingese. I was able to trim most of the hair off of her chest and neck when she was asleep - pekes have that lion mane and it was collecting snow something awful, in spite of the shovelled off potty areas. She looked goofy but it really helped, and I did it while she slept - I wouldn't recommend any shaving or trimming if he is going to move alot - Just lots of towels and a warm area and he will dry off just fine. |
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 12, 2013 12:51:54 GMT -7
Thanks, Stevie. As I said, I need some hand-holding. I read Kobe's curling up as depression and never looked at it as perhaps a sign of not hurting. I know this is all different for him: he's been such an active, snuggled little boy and I get so worried that he'll never heal (even though we're only on Day 6!! Yikes). I found myself crying around him and that can't help. I'm sure I'll be posting again soon - thanks for your patience and tolerance with me.
Thanks! I'm biased but he is pretty doggone handsome. He was surrendered twice before I adopted him and I can't imagine why unless inability to care for him. He was completely housebroken and is very friendly and sweet. I adopted him 2 years ago this Thursday!
|
|
|
|
Post by Jean & Mimi on Nov 12, 2013 13:17:13 GMT -7
I cried daily for the first three weeks. It was only at that point that I started to see progress (after unsuccessful tapers and changes of medicine). Seems to me like you are already ahead of the game if he is snuggling in his crate. Hang in there |
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 12, 2013 13:51:27 GMT -7
Thanks for sharing that with me, Newbiemom. I have to trust the process. I watch every move he makes to see if there's improvement and need to cut that out. You help tremendously.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sally & Kobe on Nov 13, 2013 19:09:26 GMT -7
I am desperately trying to keep Kobe occupied and am running out of ideas. I can't keep giving him edible treats. Vet recommended a "hidden treat" toy, clicker games, etc. As soon as I open the crate to place the items in and work with him, he tries to bolt out and is hard to contain. I can't afford a play pen -type enclosure where I can get I with him. Help please!
|
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Nov 13, 2013 23:35:58 GMT -7
Hi Sally,
Have you tried playing mellow music for him, or the TV on low.. Or just sitting by his crate and petting him through the wires? Also moving his crate to different locations in the house to ease boredom.. It's so hard, I know.. Most dogs don't like crate rest..
Sending you a hug across the miles.. you are taking such good care of Kobe.. He will recover and go back to being happy after crate rest and hopefully he will adjust to the crate and start feeling better way before that. This won't damage his personality..Once crate rest is over, he will have to ease back into his daily activities gradually but he will manage and he will be happy again. I call it a new normal..
|
|
I struggle to sleep as he will whimper for hours. He was initially diagnosed with a soft tissue injury a month ago but 2 weeks ago, he hopped out of his crate and went down on his right front paw. He toes-under but only trips when he turns or is on uneven surfaces. He has pain sensation in all limbs/tail and can squat to urinate and defecate with little or no problem. Appetite is good but mood is poor. Actually, his paw/leg have the look of a broken leg/bad ligament tear but I feel safer operating on the assumption of IVDD. His vet wants conservative treatment for now (I'll be able to at least afford x-rays next week). Will you all post some suggestions you've seen work? He was on a small dose of Xanax for several days when I was travelling and that seemed to offer him some relief. I told the vet that I need to be on crate rest and sedatives too! Thanks so much.
