PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 19, 2018 17:31:22 GMT -7
Reuben, with our short legged doxies steps/stairs need ramps. As when taking a step a doxie needs to actually jump up or down, not good for the back. The ramp provides for gentleness for the back as the dog goes up or down an incline.
So you will have to determine if for Luna's much longer legs when she takes a step is it a jump, hop up or downwad that causes stress to the back. If it is a matter of a gentle one leg down and then the others in negotiating a step, then maybe a ramp is not needed for that height step/stair.. How does what Luna does compare with Dr. Swains information below?
"Each time a dog jumps up on the bed, jumps for the ball, or jumps into the back of the SUV, the spine is flexed and then acutely extended, putting increased forces at the low cervical, mid-thoracic, and especially lower lumbar spine. These recurring stresses can result in chronic fatigue and microscopic damage to the IVD." Scot Swainson, DVM, ACVS Surgeon Colorado Canine Orthopedics
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Aug 19, 2018 18:25:20 GMT -7
So we built a ramp for my parents living room, it was an 8" step down. When Luna was negotiating that step when she was deteriorating before surgery, she would put 1 paw up on it, then the other. This was one indicator to me that something was wrong because she was moving "slowly" around the house. She was climbing the stairs slowly too (one paw at a time), but that single step in the living room was usually nothing to her. So based on that information though, I think 8" is too much. Her ortho beds are 4", seems no problem there. Guessing 4-6" is the maximum that might be OK.
After surgery, she still moves pretty slowly around the house unless I try to energize her. She has no steps at all anymore, and there's no yelps. Luna was also walking and doing "jumps" very soon before the event that needed surgery (maybe only a couple days before fully herniating the disc). So that is slightly concerning considering her activity level is still pretty low/slowish outside of walks.
I will keep in mind that definition of a step as I move forward to refactor the house.
Thanks!
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Sept 9, 2018 7:57:35 GMT -7
I bought this 8" reconfigurable couch which has memory foam type material from Lucid. I put a 4" memory foam cot mattress in front of it. Luna hasn't seen this yet, and I'm a little afraid that 8" step is too high (or she's going to try and use that). I wanted her to be able to feel like she's pushed up on a couch again. I think when she sees this she's going to try and climb to the top to look outside, I wish I could think of a way to let her do that safer. I'll have to see if she's taking a jump to get up there.
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Post by Michelle & Keira on Sept 12, 2018 3:11:26 GMT -7
Luna is very spoilt and much loved pup!
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Sept 12, 2018 14:42:20 GMT -7
Built the 1st ramp at my house (used Timbertech Silver Maple decking). It came out great! It's a 14ft ramp with stoop, the angle isn't too bad, nearly 1ft to 1" drop wheelchair regulation. Feels great to walk on myself, lol. This is for the front door.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Sept 12, 2018 14:50:40 GMT -7
Wow, that looks awesome!! Wish I could hire you.😀
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Sept 14, 2018 11:40:58 GMT -7
Thanks Julie!
What do you guys think of something like this for our IVDD dogs to chew on to clean their teeth? It's supposed to be like Kong Rubber.
The surgeon originally told us no more hard things (like nylabones that Luna loves to chew on) so she's had nothing hard to eat other than treats.
I contacted the surgeon too, but would like your guys input.
Brite Bite Brushing Stick:
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Sept 14, 2018 13:07:23 GMT -7
These seem to be made of fairly soft rubber. I think a heavy chewier would pull it apart rather quickly. On the video it was mentioned to take the stick away after a while probably to prevent this. If Luna uses it like the dogs in the video I can't see any harm. Not sure how well it would clean teeth though.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Sept 16, 2018 17:00:36 GMT -7
Thanks! Yeah, it may not clean her teeth well, but she has nothing to bite on and that must be driving her crazy. In general I'm guessing we aren't allowed to give any hard toys/treats for our IVDD dogs to bite on (it's not very clear to me, I feel like I've asked the surgeon a few times lol).
The doctors responded for this specific item and they said it's fine, just don't let her aggressively chew it. So they didn't indicate it's bad for her to bite hard on softer rubber because of IVDD, or because she might rip it off and eat it!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 16, 2018 17:24:38 GMT -7
Reuben it is dogs who shake their toy as in kill the prey that is a lot of movement to the neck/back for an IVDD dog. And also agressiive chewing can be alot of movement for the IVDD dog's back. Gently working on knawing a toy is fine if that is what Luna does.
In general all toys do need to be monitored by the owner that parts are not coming off and being swallowed.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Sept 22, 2018 4:39:23 GMT -7
OK I bought one from "PlanetBlueDog" and I'll let you know how Luna does with it. If you guys have any other recommendations of softer chewing toys our IVDD dogs are allowed (or seem to enjoy) biting on please let me know! I did give back a few of her toys that she stands and scratches on to play, that definitely seemed to make her happier.
Luna used to chew nylabones, the bones that don't really chip off (but they're pretty hard), they're meant to break down a little with saliva but not be edible. She hasn't bitten any of those again (yet, or maybe ever). She would knaw on them for about 5-10 minutes.
She used to steal golf balls from my backyard or ROCKS and chew on those! I used to think she'd steal a rock just to get a treat inside knowing I'd have to give her a treat to get the rock out. I consider those two things no-nos of course (don't bite that), but she's definitely missing that part of her life right now, something to bite on.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jan 14, 2019 5:30:12 GMT -7
Hi,
It's been about 6 months since Luna's IVDD surgery.
We go on 60+ minute walks nowadays. She sometimes jogs in straight lines on the walks (especially when going home) but for the most part it's a normal walk speed.
After some of those longer walks we've noticed her having (probably) muscle pain, because after getting up from a nap after those walks she'll limp with her back right leg up. I'll massage her thighs and after a minute she "acts normal" again. There's no yelping/etc.
Basically she should probably go on shorter walks and maybe less frequently, it's also cold here (25 degrees) where after 60 minutes maybe it's not feeling good on her bones.
Sometimes after walks she'll go running around in the house like a crazy girl (happy to be home?), it's hard to stop her when when she does that. Overall she seems happy and I don't think any of that limping is an IVDD problem but just muscle soreness. That's happened twice in the last month, and we don't do any exercise the next day. When she was much younger (maybe 2 years old) she had a limp like that in the same leg. It was kind of funny because my mom was using a cane at the time and Luna was running around with 3 legs (as if she felt bad lol).
With the way I treat her, I need a woman in my life, lol.
She has been getting fiesty about eating at night, she barks and whines for more food at 9PM/1AM. When I'm visiting to help take care of her I try to ignore it and go back to sleep (I sleep near her). She'll walk up to me, sniff my face, once she sees I'm actually awake - go back to her food to whine, lol! I try to keep one eye open to spy on her and not let her know I'm awake.
Reuben
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 14, 2019 8:33:51 GMT -7
Hi, Reuben. Limping, not wanting to bear weight on a leg is a sign of pain. Yes, it could be from muscle soreness and since it resolves after a little massage, that may well be what it is. If it doesn't resolve after some rest/massage or if you see any other sign of pain, do crate her until you can get her seen by a vet to be sure there isn't another disc episode going on. Sometimes it's difficult to tell whether pain is from sore muscles or another disc. With the very cold weather, it might be advisable to shorten the walks a bit as you mentioned. Other signs of pain to be on the lookout for: ◻︎ restless, pacing, can’t find a comfortable position ◻︎reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎shivering-trembling ◻︎yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎slow to move ◻︎tight tense tummy ◻︎arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to pain of moving jaw with a neck disc or pain of back disc ◻︎ holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎not their normal perky selves Nerve root signature pain to be aware of: www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/rootsignature.htmIt's obvious she knows how to get around your heart, Reuben! Do be cautious with those pleas for more food late at night though - you don't want her to gain weight as any excess weight wouldn't be good for her spine. It sounds as though Luna is one happy little girl and that delights us all! You do a great job caring for her. Keep up the good work and please continue to keep us updated. We love hearing about Luna!
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jan 14, 2019 8:57:16 GMT -7
Thanks for the information! Yeah, it's definitely some pain of some sort (after long walks). In her disc episodes it was similar, she had problem getting from laying down and would yelp (4-5 times a day), until her disc broke off and she roared for a long time.
When she does sit next to me on her bed she does have her ears pinned back, I thought she's just trying to listen to what I'm saying. Her back doesn't seem arched and head isn't high or low in those occassions though.
She's eating fine and moving OK. Usually after the walk she runs around in the house crazily for maybe 10 seconds, then goes to sleep. I think during those times she's exaggerating anything she might have going on. In both times it's happened the last month she's been fine the next day (and no exercise).
Usually after those walks she's tired for the rest of the day, so it's hard to gauge if that's her sleepy self or not her normal perky self (due to pain). She will once a day or so bite her back foot for a few seconds.
Mom says when she makes those pleas for food she gives her 3-4 pellets and a lot of water mixed in to try and trick her. For me I just go back to sleep and she eventually gets she won't get anything more.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Feb 23, 2019 5:10:23 GMT -7
Hi,
We upped Luna's Dasuquin to 1 pill a day (maintenance level for dogs over 30 lbs). She was taking 0.5 pills a day for most of her life (they found she had a problem with her back leg around 1 or 2 years old). She's 34 lbs now, I told my mom maybe she can go back to 0.5 pills if she can lose weight. My mom is almost 70, I don't think she can take care of a beagle but she also won't give her to me - frustrating so all I can do is give advice and help. English also isn't her 1st language so I have to basically do all of the communicating with vets/surgeons/etc. although I don't live that close to them (2.5 hours).
Dogwood (surgeon) still replies to us at night time with any questions we have, which is cool because we are really no longer their patient. We think Luna needs her teeth cleaned, but we are worried about the process at our vet.
Dogwood said the vet should be careful but they're OK with Luna's teeth cleaning; we followed up with more questions. Do you guys have any information on IVDD dogs going under anesthesia? It was recommended Luna not be given muscle relaxants (before/around her surgery time, because of the identified IVDD), I assume anesthesia can kind of be the same thing, and she doesn't have control over her neck (?) - maybe that's what they mean?
Kind of scared but Luna needs her teeth cleaned, she's starting to want wet food with her soaked dry food to eat, and we know her teeth are not in the best condition. She's had one of her teeth pulled in her last cleaning, she's almost 8 now.
Thanks!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Feb 23, 2019 5:48:16 GMT -7
Hi, Reuben. There are considerations with anesthesia with anything from dentals to xrays for an IVDD dog. With any procedure that requires anesthesia, you will want to be assured your vet and all vet techs in attendance understand the risk. A dog's main defense against further disc damage is dependent upon control over the core trunk muscles – this defense is eliminated with anesthesia. Mark Bush MA VetMB CertSAS MRCVS advises when under sedation "great care must be taken to ensure the patient’s spine is kept in neutral alignment throughout the procedure, and any movements are controlled and kept to a minimum."
Something else to discuss with the vet about anesthesia. Something important to the condition under which the dogs wakes is the pre-medication and the emotional state of the dog when it goes to sleep. Be sure your vet will use a proper pre-medication to ensure a smooth in and out from the anesthesia. People and animals that go to sleep smooth will more often wake up smooth, those who are anxious will wake up with much more difficulty often with a flailing and fighting state of emotion. Keeping the dog calm prior to the procedure will have a huge impact on how it wakes up.
Also there has been discussion on the forum about the type of anesthesia making a difference. Sevofluorene sounds like it's a better choice that Isofluorene. Apparently it is common for dogs to have rather sharp, repetitive head movements to one side or the other while coming out of the effect of the anesthesia. They "come to" from Sevo much more gently and quickly.
As long as all who will be working in association with the dental (vet tech, dental tech, vet) are well briefed and understand the need to keep the back well supported, for two people to rotate his body keeping it on one plane- no twisting, during the teeth cleaning, while waking up, etc), the dental can work. Infected teeth can have bacteria traveling to the heart and other places in the body causing harm so the issue does need to be dealt with.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Sept 14, 2019 16:26:12 GMT -7
Hi, Luna hasn't gotten her teeth cleaned yet, but we will pass that information on to the vet. They said they have them in some system where their whole body/head can't move when they're working on them. Otherwise, Luna walks every day (or every other day) and usually ranges from 0.5 to 1.25 mile walks. Usually when she comes home, she will just nap/sleep most of the day. Occasionally after long naps after a walk she will have (what we think) is muscle tightness and limp when getting up out of bed. Seems to happen once a month or less, maybe. During walks she seems like her normal self, and walking around the house generally. We upped her Dasaquin to 1 pill a day after talking to the vet (because she's 34 lbs). I finally got a deck/ 24 ft ramp built at my house, so she visited. She was excited to leave her own house after more than a year of being stuck there, she still runs around when happy and wants to play with her toys briefly here and there. She's 8 now. She doesn't have any tug toys, or toys that she likes to shake side to side. We give her a soft toothbrush type bone with toothpaste in it for her to gnaw on, she doesn't have anything hard to bite on anymore. Otherwise, seems like she's in good health for IVDD dog 1 year post surgery. She seems to listen a little more on walks for whatever reason (maturity now?), she will still fight to go a certain way but after a minute of pointing her in another direction she will give up and follow the new/shorter path. Reuben
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 14, 2019 16:43:52 GMT -7
Hi Reubin, thanks for the lovely update on Luna. She's lucky to have you and your family in her life to take such good care of her. Your report has her thriving post- op a year and looking oh so cute chewing on the that green toy! Your ramp looks so well constructed, it's beautiful. Is Luna a good girl, never a thought about jumping off the side of the ramp?
Thank you for stopping by to let us know how Luna is doing.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 14, 2020 3:41:51 GMT -7
Hi,
Luna has ivdd and was successfully operated on at Michigan veterinary services years ago.
She's a 9 year old beagle.
She's starting to pee in the house a lot, and drinking a lot of water..doctor's suspects Cushing's disease. If so, they can treat with medicine most likely.
He is more scared of her calcium level. It's at 15, I think anything over 11.8 is high.
They're running a lot of tests this week and next to determine what is going on.
My question is, is it possible that with dogs with ivdd, they might have higher calcium concentrations on their blood?
In regards to ivdd she has only exhibited one episode since surgery, she had done well with ivdd so far.
Thank you, Luna and Reuben
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 14, 2020 4:05:43 GMT -7
Hi, Reuben. I well remember you and Luna and what excellent care you took of her following her surgery. I'm sorry to hear that she's having some additional medical issues.
I have never heard anything about a connection between IVDD and higher calcium levels. I hope the vets can figure out what's going on with that.
You mentioned that Luna exhibited one IVDD episode since the surgery. Did you treat her with conservative care for that?
Healing prayers for Luna.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 14, 2020 4:56:23 GMT -7
Hi,
Her 1 issue with IVDD happened earlier this year, she was put back on gabapentin and a steroid for 1 week (I think). She was not crated, but she was allowed to walk in the house, but was not given any walks outside.
She returned to normal.
The episode happened at 2AM, I noticed she was trembling when laying down, but did not seem to have any walking issue.
Thanks for the input on high calcium, hopefully we figure out why and Luna continues to live a fairly normal life. Right now she's drinking a lot of water and peeing in the house as her only visible symptoms, with her blood calcium reading at 15. They're going to do more tests this Thursday/Monday.
Cushing's disease is one reason to drink/have accidents in the house, the high calcium in blood can also cause that and is scarier according to the vet.
Reuben
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 14, 2020 13:13:33 GMT -7
I hope that your vet will soon be able to determine what is causing Luna to drink and pee so much.
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