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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 15, 2018 7:36:17 GMT -7
This morning, we tried to get Luna to use the ramp to the van. It took her a couple minutes to trail a treat up the ramp. I tried to get her to go down, and she jumped at the end and fell a bit. She didn't seem to get hurt, but basically the ramp is not working for her.
I took her for a 5 minute walk and had my mom drive the van to try and pick her up (with the van), since Luna does not want to turn around to go back home (lol). She didn't get anywhere near the ramp. I ended up walking her back home and she's sleeping now.
Our instructions are 5 minute walks/day first week, 10 minute walks/day next week, 15, then 20. Or basically a slice of the walk and periodically increase, Doc said if you normally do 1 hour walks then start with 10 minutes a day for a week and increase.
How do we know if she's doing "OK" after these walks? She's been sleeping most of the day after surgery and walking around the house (more depressed I think than anything from not being able to play or walk) - now sh'es sleeping. I'm guessing it's muscle soreness and not IVDD, but how do we know? After her nap, she should be acting normal and no yelping or signs of pain, I guess? Luna used to sleep almost all day after her longer walks (45 minutes -> 1 hour), but now I wonder if she was in IVDD pain or something back then.
Our next try will be to walk about 5 minutes, bring the van, take the cage out of the car, coax her into the cage, then lift the cage into the van. It's tough to get Luna to go 2.5 minutes one way and not keep going that way (i.e. turn around back home), so I hope this technique of putting her in the cage works for the next month.
She kept jumping forward to go on the walk, she wants to jog/go full speed. I kept holding her back and saying slowly. She does seem to understand the word, but it's like the brain and heart in humans - she's leading with her heart first. She's very happy outside/going on walks.
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Post by Ann Brittain on Jul 15, 2018 8:04:54 GMT -7
It sounds like Luna is reluctant to take her walks which could be a sign that she's still experiencing pain. Keep in mind the signs of pain: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much in crate, tight tense tummy, can't find a comfortable position. Arched back. Holding leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight, head held high or nose to the ground. Not her normal perky selves.
If she shows any of the pain signs, I'd be very careful with her exercise program. Healing nerves takes a long time. Some dogs may heal more quickly than others but erring on the side of caution is always a good plan.
It does not seem likely that she'd have muscle pain from a 5 minute walk, especially since she was taking much longer walks prior to surgery.
With patience and care, I'm sure your Luna will be back to her normal life soon.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 15, 2018 8:41:31 GMT -7
Hi Ann,
Actually, Luna doesn't seem reluctant to take her walks, she keeps walking to go on a walk - lol. And when she's on the walk, she's trying to be too rowdy/move fast. She is not used to the van/ramp at all, when we had the van try to pick her up she just wanted to keep going.
But after her first walk here, she is sleeping a lot. The thing is, she was sleeping a lot the last few days too (and she's been in crate rest for 2 weeks). From what you listed, the only thing I'd say is she is not her normal perky self all the time (but I'm not sure if she's ever been like that 100% of the time anymore, more of a go on a walk, sleep most of the day after that kind of dog). I'd say if I wanted to try and take her on a walk again today, she probably wouldn't go.
I'd say it was more of a 10 minute walk because we couldn't get her back in the van and had to coax her to walk back home. She was still wanting to run.
Mom thinks she's sleeping so much because she hasn't been outside to walk for maybe 4-5 weeks and her muscles are a little weak. I don't know.
I think we will see how she's moving today and skip tomorrow's walk and then go on a 5 minute walk with trying to put her back in the cage to bring her back home, the next day.
Normal for her after walks is to drink water and take a long nap, sometimes it lasts half the day! And sometimes the walks were 1hour+ where she wouldn't want to walk the next day either. We will never know if that was IVDD in her younger years or just muscle pain from a slightly overweight dog lol.
One other thing I've noticed during the crate time and post crate time is she literally "falls" to sleeping position. Like she sits but then to get into her laying position she falls down faster than I've seen her do before (like plop down, sometimes a thud). I think she hasn't gotten her strength back (either in her neck or front arms)?
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Post by Ann Brittain on Jul 15, 2018 9:30:29 GMT -7
I'd agree that Luna is probably more tired than usual. Part of it could be the meds or just that her body needs more rest to help her heal.
I remember right before our Buster had his IVDD episode. (He had surgery 7 years ago.) I knew something wasn't quite right. He wasn't showing any of the typical signs of pain, but I knew something wasn't quite right. His eyes were a little duller than normal and he'd find a spot, in the house, to sleep alone. Buster is a very social dog, so this behavior was unusual. We'd just moved to a new house so we thought he was confused about being in a different place.
The lesson here is that when something "seems" wrong with your dog, we, as owners, need to pay attention. I don't know how many times we've wondered whether Buster's outcome would've been different if we'd gotten him to a vet as soon as we noticed the change in his behavior.
I think your plan to lay off the walking for a day or so is good. One thing you know for sure is that it won't hurt her and it could help her heal.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 15, 2018 9:40:04 GMT -7
Yes, she definitely seems "different". She's not on any medication anymore (it's been a few days). She walked really well/normal in the doctor's office (showing off, wanting to play, etc) - but she hadn't been off a leash for 2 weeks before that.
She sleeps against the wall or something hard, I don't know if she's always been like this, but she's doing it more often now.
I'm sorry to hear about Buster. Luna was on medication and a couple weeks of "house rest" (which wasn't defined as not jumping on couches/etc!). She proceeded to get worse (while on tramadol and muscle relaxants), to the point she had her "episode" that lead to surgery.
She does seem to walk fine in the house, when disinterested, slow walk, when interested - fast jog to the location.
I would say she's not "normal" yet and I wouldn't expect it for a long time based on what she's going through. She's also only going to get older, so some of this behavior will be fighting father time too lol. The doctor said within a month we should be able to get her to go back on normal length walks (for her), but we'll go slow.
Thanks for your insight! Reuben
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Post by Ann Brittain on Jul 15, 2018 10:01:29 GMT -7
Buster never recovered fully after surgery, but he was able to walk and isn't in pain. He's almost 14 (August 30) so he's definitely slowing down. He still wants to get on his feet, but because it seems to tire him out, we'll oftentimes but him in his wheels.
In spite of his disability, Buster has been a great dog. He doesn't let his limitations keep him from having a good life and we've learned a lot about overcoming challenges from him.
Good luck to you and Luna.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 16, 2018 7:50:12 GMT -7
Reuben, what did the surgeon say about crate rest? Is that to continue along with the slow increase of supervised PT walking? For how much longer?
When she has graduated from crate rest that would mean she is allowed to walking around the house as long as some one is home to keep tabs on her but not necessarily eye ball to eye ball supervision as would be done during PT when still on crate rest. Often times post op crate rest can be for 4 weeks and after doing the directed slow PT, back to the suite to continue healing of surgical sites.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 16, 2018 8:07:59 GMT -7
Hi, At the Doctor's, they let Luna out of her cage (for the first time without a leash in weeks). She acted her normal self, wagging her tail, walking around sniffing things, getting down wanting to play with the doctor. I attributed this more to her feeling less depressed, she does seem to act more "normal" at Doctors (trying to act healthy). Anyway, based on that and some minor examination of her neck, he said she is free [graduated] to walk around the house now. I've been eyeballing her, though. Doctor recommended crate if the house is left. Currently she has no place to jump on any furniture, we're still trying our best to stop her from getting on her hind legs (looking at kitchen table, this is also her indicator to pee by doing that to the patio door). Doctor said if she normally does 20 minute walks, 5 minutes/day for a week. Then 10 minutes/day for a week. 15 for a week, then back to normal. He said if she normally does closer to an hour, then you can start with 10 minutes/day. Since Luna did not want to use the ramp, we had to turn her back around so her first walk was probably double the length (10 minutes). She came home and basically didn't move for about 6 hours, sleeping the entire time. I was worried. She did get up to eat but went back to her spot to sleep. After waking up from her super long nap she started to want to play/act normal again. I think that walk was too long and she had some (expected?) muscle pain, she hadn't walked in 4-5 weeks before then. I'm not sure, I still don't really know how to determine IVDD vs. muscle pain. She used to sleep basically all day after her 1 hour walks, I used to read that as her being tired. We're skipping today's walk based on yesterday's results, she wanted to go for a walk this morning, doing her normal routine beforehand. Tomorrow we will try a 5 minute walk and put her in the cage/into the van to come home. I'm still afraid to pick her up because I haven't used the technique they showed, I usually had one arm under her front legs and one arm under her back legs. Doctor said that'd be OK, as long as her spine stays straight. EDIT: My Dad has been super careless with the baby gates that block the only room that Luna shouldn't go in (furniture has no blockers in there). 3 times in 2 days he's left it open. I'm not good with being "honey" with someone who deserves vinegar. Reuben
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,604
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 16, 2018 8:24:31 GMT -7
The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions upon graduation. Not free reign of the house and yard immediately! Take it slow with leash waking too. LOL Take a look at our information and then come up with a plan to gradually increase activity over about a month's time following the end of crate rest. You want to be clear if you see pain that it is not confusing of muscle overdoing it pain VS. pain of another disc issue. That is the reason to take things slowly. Also check out how to teach four paws on the floor! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmIt is hard to change to a new routines.People need time to relearn things such as always closing a gate! How about a furniture blockers for that room or maybe some large pillows or bubble wrap to keep Luna off that furniture if perchance she gets into that room? At my house we tied a bright red ribbon to the gate to help us learn a new routine.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jul 16, 2018 8:40:52 GMT -7
Could you try putting a bell on a string on the patio door? Teach Luna to nudge the bell when she needs to go potty instead of jumping on the door.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 16, 2018 10:41:30 GMT -7
Hi,
I bought a bell for the patio door. When she wanted to go out to potty, I rang it and opened the door. She ran away into the living room (lol).
If anyone even grazes that bell a little bit she will wake up and get scared (strange). I left a sub-average review on amazon because of it, crazy.
We used that to try to get her off her hind legs in the kitchen now, hasn't worked too well (she hasn't connected the no/down and bell yet as she still does it). We put her in the crate when people are eating/preparing food and that seems to work better.
The patio door stretching on her hind legs for pee, we still need to work on.
She doesn't have free roam of the yard, she's still leashed, in the house she has free roam to protected rooms.
She's still having a little trouble pooping, she's not drinking as much water (since she's done with Prednisone). I'll see her get into posture but nothing come out. This happens once or twice a day but eventually she'll get it [poop] out. Today I also saw her get into position to pee but nothing came out and she immediately got up.
I don't know if those are signs of spinal pain or just constipation, the poop looks a little drier than normal and since she isn't allowed to walk around much, shes not getting bowel movement as often.
Reuben
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 17, 2018 4:30:35 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
I think what you mean is we shouldn't see much change in Luna's behavior after the walk, correct? Last time she didn't move for like 6 hours (except to eat). That was scary.
She's also pretty sleepy in general, I'd say sleeping 18+ hours a day, I think it might be normal in a 7 year old beagle though - she's also bored because she literally has zero toys to play with, lol. The doctor said she could bite on her benebone (he didn't want her doing that in the first 2 weeks since it causes some neck stress) - I don't know what you guys think about that? She wants to bite on something, and it can't be my finger lol.
We'll try a very short walk today, I'm scared she's just not going to move at all again afterwards - I can't tell if that's muscles or not since she's basically not walked in a month or more really. She used to sleep most of the day from a regular sized walk though. If she goes into another long phase of not moving much after I'll have to contact Dogwood. The staff mentioned since she's discharged we should be talking to our regular vet, but our regular vet hasn't once reached out to us to ask about Luna's status - disappointing.
Thanks! Reuben
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 17, 2018 5:52:50 GMT -7
Took Luna out for a walk, went 12-15 houses. Coaxed her back into her cage with a treat that she loves, took her back in the van to home. Coming home she ran to get water, then tried to run around the house in joy (like she usually does after walks). I kept trying to tell her to stop, and finally coaxed her into her create with a treat and she sat there calmly for 5 minutes then I let her out - and she's walking around normally again.
She did look confused in the cage, like "I'm not allowed to be happy?" type face, lol. Tough love, kid.
Let's see how she reacts today, Luna really loves going on walks. She usually does her run around the house crazily thing and then sleeps for most of the day.
Trying a new routine, walk, drinks water, treat to get into cage to calm down, 30 minutes later eats her first meal.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,604
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 17, 2018 8:54:28 GMT -7
Reuben, just may have been too long a walk and a shorter more gradual build up of stamina and muscles is needed. Sounds like a much better walk this morning does not have have her so exhausted she needs to sleep for 6 hours. Dogs do not understand the principal of easing into anything. So your new routine has her taking it more easy at home after the PT walk. After surgery discharge it is quite normal that you would then seek council from your regular DVM vet. I LOVE my most excellent vet who knows his IVDD and has helped Dodgerslist with the video series! My vet did not call me, I called him to make an appt to take out the staples. My surgeon was 7.5 hrs away from my home. Each practice handles things differently.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 17, 2018 10:38:53 GMT -7
She's still sleeping a lot today, lol. She seemed better immediately after the walk than the first time. An hour or two later she's conked out. I think this is Luna, though.
She got pretty far in only 5 minutes, probably 1/4th of her longer walks (0.3 miles). She of course wanted to keep going and she was trying to trot at a high speed, especially when she saw the van that was coming to pick her up - lol. She kept looking back at it (like why is this van here? I know this engine though)- and it made her try to walk faster.
The doctor said her bolstered beds are fine (the ones that are high on the sides, to let them curl up or with Luna, sleep on her back easily) - but she struggles to twist her way out of the back position in these. This is how she finally ruptured her weak C2/C3. What are your guys thoughts on types of beds? She has orthopaedic and memory foam in her crates, outside shes only using blankets because we're feeling unsure of the bolstered circle beds even though the Doc is OK with them.
She got up from her nap now and shook her head a couple times, I think her neck is still tight/bothering her - any thoughts on that? Seems to be a couple times a day.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 17, 2018 13:44:54 GMT -7
She may get tired as her muscles are still gaining strength so that is why she is sleeping. Dogs sleep quite a bit anyway and more so as they age.
It seem to me that any bed where she needs to struggle to get out of is not right for her. I have seen beds that have a sort of raised pillow area but only on one end. Something like that may work better for her.
Her neck may indeed be tight and she is sort of stretching it out. It doesn't sound like pain to me.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 17, 2018 15:07:33 GMT -7
Thanks! Yeah, we're going to get rid of the bolstered beds. She still sleeps on her back (even on just blankets or memory foam), but she turns her neck for support (like at a 45 degree angle on her back). But she can easily fall out of that position when waking up. She'll also prop herself on the side of her cage (if she decided to go in there). By the way, I caught her arching her back in her cage (after getting up, also). It seems like it's probably all related (tight neck from sleeping). She isn't crying about it, it might just be one of those things she has to live with long term (I read the disc scarring is stronger than the discs themselves but not as much range of movement). The shaking of her head is like her saying "no", it's not a full on shake, ears don't wag much. I've only really witnessed it when she gets up from sleeping so I think it's just tightness. Now that we're talking about beds. My friend's dachshund had paralysis IVDD, she recommended a high quality mattress for them to sleep on. What are your thoughts on that? We're willing to buy a nice memory foam mattress if she's allowed to make the 6-8" step up to it. THe doctor said he wasn't worried about a 6-8" step into the living room (sunken) but we built a 5ft long ramp for that 8" drop. Right now the living room has a fenced off couch for my Mom to sleep on (or me, if I'm visiting) while Luna sleeps on the floor/blankets/etc (she used to sleep on the couch next to my mom). Mom thought she coudl get 2 mattresses on the floor, one for Luna and one for her - lol - good or bad idea? When I bring a variety of blankets/bed covers to sleep next to Luna, she usually ends up stealing the ones meant for me and I end up using her blankets. Like she's sleeping on my blanket and resting her head on my pillow right now, where I'm laying on the carpet with her blanket. Reuben
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jul 17, 2018 16:18:33 GMT -7
I've heard of people putting their mattress on the floor with an IVDD dog.
Sounds like having two mattresses on the floor would work.
You're all doing a wonderful job with caring for Luna!!
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 18, 2018 6:13:39 GMT -7
I sleep on the floor every night with her nowadays but last night she decided to use me as her bolster, there is nothing better (other than a real baby lol) than your dog sleeping up against you at night time.
She went on a 5 minute walk again today, this time I used a timer on my phone. She was slow to start (because of the weed eater in her, lol), but made it as far as I thought she should in 5 minutes.
Came home, wasn't as happy to run around this time, ate her food after 30 minutes and now is starting her long nap. She definitely wants to go farther on walks but we don't let her.
My mom follows us in the van (so we can crate her and take hr home). Luna knows that's "her" van, she continuously looks behind her and is like "why is this following me?" in a sense, "I don't like that, I want to keep walking!".
It's funny how quickly dogs adapt, since they can't talk, I told my mom we just need to keep routine and order and she will follow. She knows the walks now start out of the backyard gate instead of the front door, for instance.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 18, 2018 10:50:14 GMT -7
Dogs ARE creatures of routine, maybe more so than people are. Sounds like you and your mom are working well together to give Luna good exercise but not over doing it. Luna is certainly in a loving environment and you have done so much to ensure she is getting good care as she returns to normal family life activities...slowly!
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 18, 2018 12:30:11 GMT -7
She's still super sleepy even after those short walks! I think she's normally like this, lazy beagle, sitting in the sun on the deck, sleeping inside, eating, sleeping. She isn't showing any other signs of pain from what i can tell, just sleepy/bored/lazy. The day we skipped the walk she also slept a decent amount, I think this is just her nowadays (18+ hours of sleep, maybe out of boredom). She seems to "wake up" in the late afternoon/evening to want to play, but there's nothing to play with! We need some toys.
Is there no chew toy that is soft enough that won't put pressure on her neck, but also she can't bite off and eat? lol. She loves the Benebones, doctor didn't want to for the first 2 weeks but gave OK for now, but we read that as we better wait as long as possible (but she gets bored and loves biting them).
I've begun to let her out on the deck without a harness/leash, she is her normal relaxed self just laying there for a few minutes in the sun before coming back inside. Slowly going back to her normal life (other than long walks). She usually watches squirrels/other dogs outside but doesn't move position and lays back down (lol).
Interestingly the doctor said if she "used to go on 1 hour walks, then start with 10 minutes" - which made me think she's still allowed to go on those longer walks with me when she's back to healthy. With mom she walks about 20-30 minutes, with me it's usually 45-75 minutes and she tries to go way too far (exit neighborhoods, go on main roads/etc. nonsense). It's like she's bored and wants to explore different paths. I don't want to put pressure on her like that anymore (although she's the one that was tiring me out!), but it would be nice to be allowed to go back on 45 minute walks. She used to sleep all day after those (IVDD pain or not, no idea).
When she was a puppy she needed 45 minute-1 hour walks 3 times a day just to tire her out, those were the healthy days, lol.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 18, 2018 13:19:48 GMT -7
When Luna is fully healed she can again take longer walks. You just have to work up to the length of time you want to stay out with her. I hope your deck is not so large that you can not keep a close eye on her. She will need you to do this for a while.
I would not resort to fear based methods to train her. I am not sure if you have seen these videos which use positive reinforcement to teach dogs not to jump up:
Teach your dog to sit down rather than jump
AND keep all four feet on the ground
I am not sure what type of chew toy would be soft enough for her at this point. I hope some other members chime in with their experiences.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 19, 2018 5:23:19 GMT -7
Went on a walk again this morning, seemed pretty normal on the walk as expected (still trying to eat weeds). Get about 12-13 houses in 5 minutes and picked up. Waiting 15-30 minutes to feed her after that, starting to act a little more "normal" (energetic), she stole someone's sock and dropped it for a treat.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,604
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 19, 2018 7:07:04 GMT -7
Reuben, good to hear your report that Luna is acclimating well to gradual increases in activities!!
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 19, 2018 14:43:19 GMT -7
She's still sleeping an awful lot. She was pretty energetic after the walk (this is how she used to be), but within an hour or two she went back into her super long nap. She woke up at 3PM to eat but she went back to sleep (she's still sleeping, 8 hours long after the walk). She's meandering around the house just to find spots to sleep. There isn't much for her to do (boredom), she doesn't show any other signs of pain though either?
I feel like she's sleeping "too" much, I don't know.
We have to skip tomorrow's walk because nobody is here to pick us up in the van, my parents had to go to go a funeral in the family. SHe seems fine on walks and right after, but after that seems just super sleepy. She's usaully a little more active at night before bed, but it's almost 6PM and she's still sleeping, a little odd.
Her walks are really short, I know if we went on one now she would "wake up". I thought I heard "someone" mention you can do multiple walks a day, just 5 minutes at a time, but we're only going to do 5 minutes a day, then 10 minute walks a day...etc.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 19, 2018 15:00:34 GMT -7
Dogs typically sleep 18 hours a day and she is getting up to eat so probably fine. Luna probably could do more than one 5 minute walk but best to get the vet's okay. It can't hurt to very slowly move her back to activity but it could hurt to go too fast.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jul 19, 2018 15:09:03 GMT -7
Luna's had major surgery and is a little older. Sounds like she's still recovering. Overall, she's doing very well!! I know it's hard not to worry. Your all doing a wonderful job with caring for Luna.
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Post by Michelle & Keira on Jul 19, 2018 21:03:44 GMT -7
Luna sounds like she is doing really good. If her surgery was June 25, that is only 3 and a bit weeks ago, such a big surgery, her body is still in the healing process. Give it time, her energy levels will increase over time. The ramp you built is amazing.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 20, 2018 11:59:23 GMT -7
Dr. Isaacs said he'll get back to us on her shaking her head (no) once a day and why she's sleeping sooo much. I think that she's bored, no couches to jump on, no toys to play with, if I say "let's go for a walk", her energy will come back. I will ask if she's allowed to do two 5 minute walks a day instead of just one (after this first week). I think it'll be fine because she's supposed to do 10 minute walks next Monday.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 20, 2018 13:23:18 GMT -7
Hopefully once Luna starts going on somewhat longer walks she will show her energy more often. If she is eager to go on her walk, that is excellent. She doesn't know she is supposed to do this gradually. But we, pet parents, know this.
Let us know what the surgeon says when you speak to him.
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