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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 3, 2018 6:43:05 GMT -7
Luna's iVVD (C2/C3) Hi, ☀︎1-- Which breed? What is your dog's name? Your name too? Pure beagle, Luna, Reuben ☀︎2-- How much does your dog weigh? 34 lbs☀︎3-- Neurology specialist ☀︎4-- What was the date of the surgery? Monday June 25th, 2018. They prescribed 2 weeks of cage rest. She can walk pre and post ventral slot surgery. ☀︎5-- 2 weeks post op cage rest, they prescribed no PT. I asked about PT, they said not needed. ☀︎6-- How many weeks did the surgeon want for crate rest including his directives for supervised and controlled PT? 2 weeks ☀︎7--Is there still currently pain? -Not that I can see so far (1 week after surgery, 3-4 days after taking her home). ☀︎8-- Please list the exact names of meds currently given, the start date, their doses in mgs and how often you give? Gabapentin (200mg) every 8 hours Tramadol every 8 hours Cephalexin (antiobiotic, every 8 hours Prednisone every 48 hours (first few days was every 24 hours) Prilosec OTC (every 12 hours until Prednisone is done) All meds were prescribed to last 10 days. ☀︎9-- She walks, and wags for treats. ☀︎10-- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up?No. ☀︎11-- Eating and drinking fine (Prednisone probably causing moreso than normal). Luna had an incident when she was 6 years old that the vet prescribed "house rest". I'm not sure if my mom heard him right, since Luna jumps on couches (headrests/etc). She got over the incident with medication. Now at 7, Luna had a much worse incident. She was on "house rest" again, but I turned all the couches around. She lives with my parents. For 2 weeks she was yelping 3-4 times a day trying to get up from her beds. She was on Tramadol and Methacarbomal (muscle relaxant). One morning, she tried to get up from her curled bed and yelped 3 times twisting out of her sleeping in back position - and then went into a constant roar. She searched everywhere to find comfort, even tried to sit in my lap. It was extremely sad and the noise is haunting. She laid on her side and trembled everywhere, with her eyes darting away and back at me. Luna used to go on 60 minute walks with me when she was healthy, she loves walking, she loves being high up on couches. We rushed LUna back to the vet and they gave her a "hydro" shot which after 30 minutes or so caused her to lay down and pant, but probably not in as much pain. We took her to a neurologist specialist referral center in Michigan (Dogwood Referral Center). They gave her an MRI and said her C2/C3 has significant damage and she should get surgery to repair since pain medication has not helped the situation. She had surgery immediately following the MRI. We're on day 4 of the cage rest. We built a ramp on the deck so she doesn't have to use stairs. She does leave her cage (on leash only) to walk to the deck. I put an artificial grass turf on the deck in case she didn't want to go out in the lawn. THe first few days she used the ramp (slowly), the last day or so she's only using the turf on the deck (which causes her to not have to walk as much). I have let her sleep outside the cage sometimes next to me (on blankets) because that seems to keep her calmer/happier when she does have to go back into he cage. I'm scared that we're letting her "move" too much. Because of prednisone, she has to pee maybe every 3 hours. The vet put in writing "3-4 times a day", the doctor told me every 4 hours. Also she likes to "dig" her bedding in her crate before she lays on it, I try to keep her calm/stop her but this is "her thing". I don't feel comfortable picking her up so I let her walk (on leash) to potty. I try to feed her and give water in the cage when possible. My parents are older (70+) so I'm helping them although Luna lives with them. I feel like I'm not demonstrating enough self control with this situation in keeping her as still as possible and I'm feeling disappointed in myself. I have not heard her yelp again (but it's probably because tramadol/gabapentin are keeping her feeling "OK") after surgery. Just looking for any thoughts from others who have gone through these situations. The first day she suffered from some constipation, getting into position but nothing coming out. We've fed her chopped up frozen carrots (chopped into the size of kibble), and that seems to get a lot of poop out once a day (whenever it happens). Thanks! Reuben
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 3, 2018 6:59:45 GMT -7
Here's a day 1 cagerest picture of her surgery location (ventral slot, they cut through the phone in the front). She uses this to pee (she's been avoiding the ramp to the grass now, unless it's to poop, which is now once a day but a lot at a time - and pretty normal looking). Turf is from a place called Southwest Putting Greens (artifical pet turf). It's about $4 a square ft. We built a ramp with ballister rails so she can't jump off, I put 3M safety step (home depot) every 6" so she has grip, but eventually put down a large rubber mat (from HeatTrak) that heats during winter so it's not slippery (we used that on the deck to keep a clean area for her to walk before we knew she had IVDD). She of course avoids stepping on it when trying to go down the ramp.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 3, 2018 7:15:47 GMT -7
Reuben, welcome to Dodgerslist. We are glad you have joined us all. Sounds like you are doing a good job in caring for Luna post op. Crate rest post op is to let all of the surgical sites heal. The idea is to not let her get rambunctious running around, walking too fast , overdoing things, etc. So that is the reason for the recovery suite. When she is out of the suite, then a harness with leash (no more collars except to hold a tag or two) at potty time will prevent her from going too fast and ensure she is gently walking. After the two weeks of crate rest is complete, discuss with your vet about a slow introduction back to family activity. Your surgeon may have already indicated how on the discharge paper? Here is a sample time table PLUS ideas to make your parent's home back friendly for Luna: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmNeck dogs often do have the PT as maybe a slow walk to and from the potty place. You are right while on pred you would expect that she's drinking more and thus the need to have to potty every 3-4 hours. Once off of pred then back to her normal of say pottying every 4-6 hours and definitely 8hrs through the night. Now that pred is every other day she may be starting to not drink so much. Luna should tell you when she needs out...pacing, getting agitated in needing to potty? Do be very vigilant about sleeping outside her recovery suite. Dogs have been known in a blink of an eye to dart off, jump at the sound of a TV doorbell, something floating past the window. Harness and leash ensures safety while healing. Your might find some good ideas on our supply list to help the rest period go smoother. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htmIt is OK for her to arrange her blankets abit. IF getting too aggressive with digging, then do give the command to sit or lie down, bring her a treat to redirect her attention away, etc. Dr. Isaacs at Dogwood has really helped our IVDD community understand a lot of things about IVDD with the Neuro Corner, articles he has written, and when we are stumped in helping a member he helps us to understand the tricky stuff. Which of the surgeons's there did Luna's surgery? Dr. Isaacs on surgery and what to expect: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgery.htmThe Neuro Corner: www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner.htm
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 3, 2018 8:47:44 GMT -7
Hi, Thanks for this website and information!
Dr. Isaacs oversaw Dr. Mossine. She's a resident but is only 2 months away from being a Neurologist.
We have Luna crated most of the time with crate covering to keep her calm.
I called Dogwood for my seemingly daily question (lol), they recommended to not shy away from teh ✚Trazodone (anti anxiety) if necessary. I plan to start it tonight. It's prescribed 1-2 tablets (200mg) every 8-12 hours.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 34 lbs Prednisone taper every 48 hours Gabapentin (200mg) every 8 hours Tramadol every 8 hours Cephalexin (antiobiotic, every 8 hours Prilosec OTC (every 12 hours until Prednisone is done) .✚Trazodone 1-2 tablets (200mg) every 8-12 hours.]
We gave her Trazodone only once so far (the first night home) and she slept about 7-8 hours straight.
It seems to help both her and I (lol) get rest. I've been sleeping about 2 hours a night on average so far. I think if she stays a little more sedated, it will give her discs time to scar. I'm very worried that it scars as well as possible.
She's not an over active beagle at 7, on leash she just sits and sleeps elsewhere with me. Currently, she's not leaving the crate without body harness and leash. I know ideally it should be crate only and just don't move at all; I have my parents who I have to also convince that this is best for her and I shouldn't even let her out on leash if I could help it (but when she goes to pee, sometimes she wants to sit/lay on the deck in the sun, so I let her do that for a few minutes). It seems to help her think this is more "normal", but right now I don't care TOO much about her feeling normal or not - I want the disc(s) to scar.
We remove staples July 12th (Thursday). She will still be on crate rest for a few more days after that. I wonder if I should reschedule the remove staples appointment until the day crate rest is over? We are supposed to discuss post life care at that time.
For now, I've tried to prepare my parents there are no more couches to jump on, no more steps. We've baby gated the house away from any area that has steps (including her favorite step down living room). We also turned couches around so they can't be jumped on for the time being. I made a list of "short term" and "long term" changes that will probably benefit her, without the Doctor talking to us yet first, so we'll see how that list looks after our staple removing appointment at Dogwood.
When we first stopped at Dogwood for Emergency, we wondered if we were in the right place. A Wild Turkey was roaming the front yard to greet us. Dr. Mossine has been very nice, pleasant, happy, and gives owners hope - exceeding any high expectations a pet owner could have for a surgeon. We have read rave reviews of Dr. Isaac since Luna's surgery, so it's good to hear he is famous here too - and that he was watching over Luna's ventral surgery.
I will read the post op care article now, thank you very much for this forum. I think this is a very tough time for the dog but the owners can also get thrown for a loop through this "shocking" time and lifestyle change.
Luna does not leave the cage at all without harness/leash, and I put a sign on the front door "Don't knock. Don't ring." and duct taped the doorbell. So far, that has helped. Also, the medication sometimes has her in a "knocked out" state lol that she doesn't respond as much to certain things. Mentally, she seems "there" though, which I'm happy about.
In the long run if Luna can just sit on the deck, enjoy the sun, go on a short walk and sleep, she will be happy. There are other things she loved to do, sit on top of couches to look out windows, jump on her toys and play kill them by shaking her head, that she won't do again. She also likes to hump me (as embarassing and odd as that is, since she's a spayed girl) - it was just a frustration release for her before taking a nap I think. Some of those things can be alleviated long term;d there are other areas of the house she can get to that have lower bay windows. After talking to the doctor I'll see if there's a way to devise her to get up near a bay window that is only 1ft off the ground (maybe an orthopaedic matress, if she's allowed to climb one sitting on the floor).
I took half days at work the next 2 weeks so I can basically lay next to her 24 hours a day to monitor/help give meds, and I work remotely, so I'm doing the best I can do.
Reuben
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 3, 2018 12:27:37 GMT -7
Again your attention to detail is the reason Luna is getting such good post op care at home....good job!!!
You could stick with the July 12 staple removal, sometimes they can get itchy. But, then you can always ask to consolidate vet trips if that works out better for your family.
Your carpentry skills are fabulous...how fortunate Luna is to have such a wonderful ramp to down into the yard!
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jul 3, 2018 15:49:30 GMT -7
Reuben, you're doing a wonderful job caring for Luna!!
Just take it a step at a time.
Maybe have your parents watch some of the IVDD education materials at the main website.
There's a 10 minute overview that explains IVDD. The better they understand this disease the more they can help Luna.
One tip I've discovered for blocking sofas are folding fireplace screens. I've found them at thrift stores and online.
Healing thoughts and prayers for you all.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 7, 2018 6:30:43 GMT -7
First milestone: Antibiotics are complete (7 days of Cephalexin 3x a day). She's got some yellow flaking on her neck near the surgery site that the doctor said is a scab and probably nothing to worry about (not directly on the incision, looks like maybe she got a little injured when they were shaving her hair perhaps): Luna seems to pant often around the Tramadol/Gabapentin time, but even slightly "before" the scheduled 8 hours, so it's hard to tell if she's in pain - or if it's the medicine side effect. She definitely does it more after Tramadol/Gabapentin, but yesterday it lasted for about 3-4 hours (3-7PM). It kind of seemed anxiety related too, she's starting to reject her cage more (lol) and wanting to sleep outside of it. I set up blankets and sleep next to her outside crate (bad habit, now). Sometimes she postures to poop and nothing comes out, we still feed her sliced up carrots (maybe 4-5 kibble sized portions a day) to help. Can't tell if it's due to the medicine or back pain that pooping is sometimes tough for her (slight constipation?), the consistency is fine though and normal. There's a step down into the living room, that has a hanging lip - we've gated it off with a baby gate for now, but Luna is slowly trying to walk back over there (small signs of regaining health/mental status? lol). This was "her" room, with couches she'd jump on to look out the bay window. Mom still wants her to "live" there, but without the couches to see the bay window, I don't think Luna will be 100% happy in here, but I have to make some deals with mom and dad since it's their house and Luna lives with them: This place makes " threshold ramps" (I think I found this site from you guys), meant for wheelchairs and 1 steps (up to 6"). I contacted them if they can make one at least 7", I'm worried about the tripping hazard the lip has though, and I'd like it wider than 36" otherwise we will need to get creative with furniture/etc. to block the sides: www.discountramps.com/silver-spring-lightweight-foam-threshold-ramps/p/THFS/What do you guys think about it for the purpose? QUESTION: Luna's Tramadol/Gabapentin is set for 10 days (so will run out in 2-3 days). It's not being trailed off slowly (Prednisone is, that's basically cut in half right now). Should I inquire if the pain meds should be trailed off slowly (it's listed just to finish it, at 8 hour increments), and what should we expect out of Luna once she is off pain meds? Is it likely she will need to always have them on hand in case of an incident, or should we expect she might need long term low dosage or something? Thanks! Reuben
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 7, 2018 9:37:33 GMT -7
Reuben, hope the UTI is now fully cleared up with the conclusion of the Cephalexin!! If you see no other signs of pain to help confirm pain, then the panting can be narrowed down to tramadol and/or anxiety. The vet takes into account how long on pain meds and other factors to decide if he wants a taper of the pain meds or just a stopping them. Once of pain meds, no need of them. Learning how to spot a suspected disc episode and crate right away is how to prevent a worsening spinal cord situation and prevent a surgery. Our Emergency FAQ page might be something to keep in her folder at home: www.dodgerslist.com/faq.htmAnother to put on the Fridge to recognize emergency signs: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdfTo help with constipation high fiber foods such as carrot, potato, pumpkin need to be finely shredded or pureed OR cooked and mashed to break down cell walls that dog's digestion cant do. Plain pureed canned pumpkin is easy to find. NOTE: alternatives are really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potatoe. --To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal and soak overnight. At mealtime add 3 teaspoon plain canned pureed pumpkin once a day -- To firm up the stool add 3 teaspoon plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day to Luna's kibble. Sounds like the threshold ramp would work and wider is better to ensure Luna is more likley to use if it covers more of her normal pathway.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 7, 2018 17:52:27 GMT -7
Thanks for the information!
Well Luna is trying to move more than she should, it's been tough today keeping her in the cage and not resting outside. She slipped on a blanket (front right foot) while out of the cage on the leash. I'm terrified she's done damage to herself, she seems OK right now (but I'm sure that didn't help at all, and she's on pain meds so how can we even know, lol, sigh). This is a stressful time right now, I'm not getting much sleep or work done and trying my best.
Reuben
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 7, 2018 19:24:51 GMT -7
Reuben, it really is best for your sanity to have Luna in a recovery suite. Then your mind can be at ease she is in a safe place so YOU can sleep better, take a break.. An expen, a wire crate are both types of recovery suites. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives (ACE or trazodone). Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Place a DAP pheromone diffusor at floor level where the recovery suite is: --DOG Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/Use diffusor with one oral calmer from below: Choose one Oral calmer: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php Let us know how they work for Luna. Other ideas for emergency crate training are here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htmWe've not heard of a surgery having 2 weeks of post op crate rest which does include the supervised PT the surgeon directed. Would you confim the number of weeks of post op crate rest BEFORE she is allow to be out of the recovery suite for short periods of time and gradually re-introducing her back to family life. She just may have dodged a bullet, observe her for any new signs of limping if she pulled a muscle.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 8, 2018 5:04:34 GMT -7
She's supposed to be in the crate for 2 weeks, at which point the doctor will tell us how to proceed.
She sometimes sleeps on the floor (on blankets) on her way back from the deck (outside to potty), which I let her do on a leash. It's been tough since my mom is really against her cage time, I've successfully kept her in the cage 22-23 hours a day so far except today where she's starting to reject the cage with anxiety/screaming for longer than 20-30 minutes.
She shouldn't be doing any PT right now, and none was suggested when I inquired about initial post cage time care. Doctor said [her PT is:] no more than 5 minutes of walking outside when trying to potty, she's usually only out there for 2 minutes at a time and brought back inside (she walks herself back on a body harness/leash, I keep her moving as slow as possible), but sometimes will now try to sleep outside her cage. Up until today I've only let her rest on her path back from potty as I didn't find that adverse (our house is relatively contained, nobody visits and she isn't affected by other people/pets walking, she just watches them).
I also asked about hydrotherapy and laser, doctor mentioned laser therapy is hit or miss and he didn't think she'd need hydrotherapy (or PT).
Yes I'm disappointed in letting her out on a leash with me outside the cage to sleep sometimes, especially since we're only 1 week in to only 2 weeks of initial cage care.
I will continue to do my best to keep her in the crate until 2 weeks are up, the staple removal is this Thursday (July 12th) and 2 weeks is July 14th.
I read the emergency crate training material. Thank you! I've noticed she does get rowdier if I'm trying to keep her calm near her, and sometimes goes to "sleep" quickly if I leave the room. We used to clicker train when she was a puppy, but not for crates. I'll try tomorrow to see if the walking out of the room thing works. ------
I tried the ignoring trick last night, her anxiety was pretty bad. I kept walking away anytime she got rowdy, one time I came back and she almost threw up (it seemed like a wet burp that she swallowed back down). That's not good, so I tried another technique that will be a bad habit in the future, but she seems to be much better with for now when she should be in the cage a maximum amount of hours per day.
She goes in the cage easily waiting for a zuke's mini treat. After that, I stick my head in and massage her body for about 5 minutes. I tell her this is a deal right, 5 minute massage so you sleep for a couple hours. It's worked the last 2 times and I think helps her anxiety more than ignoring her (I guess, to each dog their own, lol). I also bring my laptop near her so she can see me work, but not right on the floor next to her. After all, this is how she is when she's healthy, always following me around and wanting to be within a 5ft radius.
I think a wired cage doesn't work that well for her, I think she feels like she can't pass go and don't collect $200 type thing lol. I saw some soft cages online, not sure what she'd think of those. Or the ex-pen to make the suite nicer than just a couple cages in the house.
I use orthopaedic pads in both, I noticed in one I think she likes it more without any blankets so she can stretch out on the pad without anything blocking her. One crate has a 4" ortho/memory foam pad the other has a 2" ortho pad with a blanket. I think she likes the 4" ortho/memory pad more.
She broke one of the Gabapentin pills in the pill pocket when eating it this morning (she takes 2 every 8 hours). Some of the powder came out, I could see the half pill on the carpet with powder in it. She did this with the antibiotic too. The Gabapentin pills are so large they almost need 2 pill pockets each, but the technique I use now is to give her the pill pocket and cup my hands under her chin (but not touch her), so she senses she doesn't have much room to push her head down (and spit the pill out lol), so she ends up successfully eating the pill pocket.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 8, 2018 5:24:19 GMT -7
Some dogs do seem to do better in an ex-pen. You can fill in extra space with rolled up blankets or towels.
You're doing such a good job caring for Luna. She's very lucky to have you in her life!
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 9, 2018 6:42:16 GMT -7
Thanks! I'll consider getting an ex-pen for the next phase of her recovery, I don't know what the doctor will suggest but I'm thinking it will be "1 room only with no furniture" for now, which could be a few days of an ex-pen and cage before expanding to the room. Here's a picture of the deck ramp we built, it's still a "little" steep, but I guess it's better than the steps? She's stopped using it for now and peeing/pooping on the deck's artificial grass lol. It's 12ft long with a drop of 32" (4 steps at 8" each). A wheel chair ramp angle would have been 32ft long. We have 1 tramadol pill and 3 gabapentins left. The reason we are off by 1 is because mom accidentally gave only 1 gabapentin instead of 2 in the first dose (lol). Luna seems to be doing better, wanting to run/move more when she's out of the cage to go potty, she seems alert. Kind of seems like someone revived her from death or something. I'm scared that when we stop giving pain medication she's going to start acting in pain again. It sounds like if we follow the rules for recovery, that shouldn't be the case?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 9, 2018 7:57:37 GMT -7
Reuben, the ramp is so very wonderful for Luna to safely get down to the yard. It's beautiful work you have done and the extra touches of traction and a heat mat to melt the snow/ice is fantastic!!! The pain post-op is due to the major surgery caused swelling of tissue. It usually takes about 2 weeks for all that swelling to go away and no more pain. The reason for a slow and gradual increase of supervised activity upon graduation is you do not want to be confused if you were to see pain whether it would be due to over using muscle pain or involving a disc issue. You can looks again at what we point to at the end of rest to get an idea of what kind of time table for easing back into family life your surgeon may suggest: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htm So during this time of easing back in to life, when the alloted supervised time out is over (a bit of wandering in the house, some walks around the yard, etc, then back into the recovery suite (crate, ex-pen). Sounds like Luna is feeling very good now. This is the time to continue to supervise and do that slow gradual thing when the surgeon indicates crate rest is over. Dogs just do not listen like a person might about "take it easy on overdoing things, you just had a major surgery."
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 9, 2018 9:47:01 GMT -7
My mom said she "can't" do some things we think are going to happen (like your suggestions), lol. And Luna has already been unfortunately doing 30 second walks around the house to get to potty and sometimes sleep on her way back to her crate. When I told my mom (remember, I'm almost 40 and helping them), she just said she can't. She isn't saying it in a way that is asking for help, she's saying it in a way that she "won't" do it.
I just said if you can't perform what the doctor's ask, let me know and I'll do it and/or take Luna. I think my parents have had real problem with me implementing the doctor's orders when I feel their solution to the orders is lacking towards Luna's health and for their own ease. I've said the only thing that matters right now is her spine, not her happiness, not our happiness - lol. I get it, when you get older, you don't want to have a lifestyle change. They also blame me (somehow?) for Luna's IVDD! They say it's because she runs on walks with me before. They say whenever Luna stays with me, she gets sick. That's because I'm always there for her when she's sick, not the other way around! She got H3N2 last year (the flu) and it got bad. SOmehow I was blamed for that, although the dog daycare here had an infestation that they closed for 2 weeks to clean it out. They get angry that I've temporarily flipped all the couches to the wall so she has no chance to jump even if she escaped the leash somehow. I'm very cautious, I think about what could happen and stop it, I don't react to the situation as it occurs, I'm a planner. I continuously plan, I don't make plans, because plans change. This aids or has developed from my profession (programming).
It's really been a lot to handle when I'm working fulltime and taking care of her almost solely, I would still do all of it for Luna, but I'm at the point to where I've at least asked my dad to just please stay out of my way during this time - lol. My relationship with my parents is taking a hit at the expense of Luna's health, but that's what it has to be. I guess you can call it tough love, but I've noticed when my parents get older, they're starting to act like my nephew/niece (who are 4 and 2 respectively). I guess living the human life is a bell curve.
I feel like my old beagle Pepsi and Luna will be waiting for me after this lifetime to say thanks with the way my parents are treating this whole process lol.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,603
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 9, 2018 12:57:29 GMT -7
Reuben, it is really, really hard to make a commitment to caring for an IVDD dog when people are not up to speed on what disc disease actually is. Then other folks just do not have the same dedication to detail care as others may have. Your parents have gone the extra mile in their own way with the installation of the ramp. They are just not all in in understanding the disease Luna has and thus crate rest, etc. doesn't make sense. A little bit a honey works alot better than vinegar for the parents you love! See if teaching/explaining the reason behind what the surgeon wants helps them to buy in. Would they be open to watching a video as a family so you can stop and talk about things as you watch? if they are not so much wanting to read about IVDD on-line? IVDD Videos: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/theater.htmAre you in a situation you could bring Luna to your home for the couple of weeks a gradual return to family life at the time the surgeon says she is graduated from crate rest? Would your mom be happier to have her house back with some simple but nice looking furniture blockers (large decorator pillows to making PVC frame with an attractive panel of fabric) rather seeing her furniture tipped over? www.dodgerslist.com/literature/protectback.htm
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jul 9, 2018 15:52:02 GMT -7
Another option I've found is folding fireplace screens to block couches.
If your parents would watch a video Dodgers List has a great one for $3.
It explains all about IVDD and how it needs to be treated.
I'm sure this is very stressful for everybody.
Maybe it would give everyone a break if you could give Luna respite care at your place for a while.
Your parents could have a chance to learn about IVDD and decide if, as much as they love Luna, if they can commit to her care.
She will always need special accommodations to protect her and there's always the possibility of other episodes.
There's a possibility that it might be better for Luna to live with you and be a frequent visitor to your parents.
I have 2 IVDD dog's and it's a serious commitment. Not everyone is able to do it.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 10, 2018 9:54:49 GMT -7
Parents are coming around, they're helping with ideas of how to "fix" their house. I have a lot to do at my own house to fix it too, going to be interesting/tough. I've tried to pass Luna should live with me, but she's mom's baby. Dad is OK with it. I think I'll make their house fixed for her and then fix mine, and see how it goes from there. I'm planning on buying this from amazon and creating a semi circle around the couch in their living room (and securing it to the wall on each end): North States Superyard 3 In 1 Arched Decor Metal, Matte Bronze Luna is now off all medicine except Prednisone (every other day) and Prilosec. It's kind of hot in Ohio (87). I read Prednisone can cause panting and a dog's inability to handle heat. I've kept the house relatively cold, she still wakes up panting sometimes - and does like to enjoy the sun but for very little time during her potty breaks, I'm guessing it's the Prednisone. Sometimes the panting stops when she gets out of the cage to eat/drink/pee (it could also be anxiety/stress related from the cage). She also sometimes has a reluctance to leave the cage when I open the door and get the harness on her, I don't know if she's feeling tired or what. Also, every couple days I catch her shaking her head a bit when she gets up from a nap. Not the full on shake full body/ears, it's half that much wiggleness and only her face (her ears swing a little). I have to imagine her neck is tight. I'll talk to the Doctor about it on Thursday (today is Tuesday), but what are your guys thoughts? I read that disc scarring is stronger than the disc itself, but the range of motion is not as much anymore - maybe it will always feel "tight" from waking up? Reuben
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 10, 2018 13:55:44 GMT -7
Pred does cause panting but so do other things, like anxiety. What we have seen work is a fan near the recovery suite but not pointed at the dog. You can also try frozen broth ice cube for Luna to lick on. Although she should be recovered from the pain caused by surgery, Reluctance to leave the crate could be a sign of pain. Sometimes panting is pain related also. Is she showing any other signs of pain such as ☐shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved ☐reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ☐tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position ☐Arched back ☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ☐head held high or nose to the ground ☐Not her normal perky self If you are seeing another of these signs which would help confirm pain, it is likely pain and you should let the vet know.
The shaking of her head may be stiffness and because she is starting to feel better she can do the shaking. Let us know what the vet says about this.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 10, 2018 14:53:20 GMT -7
Hi,
I sent the vet a question about the shaking, I'll let you guys know. For the most part the panting ends when she's let out of the cage.
If the signs you listed, I'd say she does get up sometimes in the crate and move slowly to find another position to sleep in, then plops down a little harder than is probably normal. She does like to mean up against the cage, support for her back, but she also sleeps in a variety of other positions including on her back! There has been no yelping like before surgery, thank the one above. She herniated the disc sleeping on her back in a bolstered bed, trying to twist her way up and helped three times and then went to a constant roar for twenty minutes or so. That noise will haunt me until I'm gone, she was shivering too and pacing all over. We got her to er vet at 4 am and they gave her a hydro shot, is what they called it. Then straight to dogwood veterinary referral.
What is flamingo style? I've seen her bend her hands under herself when sleeping, and both out fully forward. I think she looks uncomfortable in the folded in under chest position.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 10, 2018 15:07:51 GMT -7
With some dogs with neck issues, they hold one of their front legs up when they are standing. They do this because it hurts to put weight on it. That is what we mean by flamingo style
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 10, 2018 15:25:25 GMT -7
Thank you for the description! In sitting position, she often puts one paw up or the other if I'm petting her, but I think that's her sign on dominance. She'll sometimes forcefully wrap her hand over mine lol. Standing, no signs of flamingo, but she is walking slowly unless she knows a treat is coming, then she's trying to move fast.
She's not using the ramp on the deck much anymore once she's figured out she can poop on the artificial grass too. I don't know if this is a sign of reluctance to use the ramp and walk in the yard, I know it's good for her recovery stage though, less steps, but she was using the ramp a bit more at first.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 11, 2018 9:48:49 GMT -7
Doctor said he'll answer our questions when staples are removed tomorrow (Thursday), so I think they're not as concerned.
She just tried to shake her head again and she's sleeping a LOT today. A little strange since today is a Prednisone skip day, and her only medication is Prilosec OTC. I don't think she's in pain, no yelps/shivering, just sleeping a lot more than even the last few days.
Think her back/neck hurts in some fashion though based on how she sleeps (back pressed up against everything), but I think this is how she has always been. Also seems a little confused outside on the deck after going to potty out there, will walk from one place another before laying down in the sun. I know that type of pacing could be considered a pain indicator, don't know.
Based on her sleeping so much, I'd say her energy level is lower than usual lol, but she's not a super active Beagle anymore anyway.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 12, 2018 3:48:13 GMT -7
Hi,
What toys have you guys found safe for dogs with IVDD?
Luna used to like the toys she could play kill (swing left and right) - those will be out according to the doctor. She also has pouncing toys, she like to just dig on them so they squeak. I haven't given those. I will ask the doctor.
She has Benebones (similar to nylabones) that she bites on, for crate period Doctor said no (could put strain on neck). Not sure long term if she can.
What are puzzle toys? I think I got her something with little squirrels coming out when she was a puppy, I don't think she'd be as interested in it as a senior (age 7).
I've never seen her bite into soft toys, Doctor said she could do that (during crate time). I gave her a wadded up paper ball and she started to rip it, and I got scared the motion of her neck wasn't good so took it away.
Basically she's had no toys at all in crate, and in post 24 hour crate time I'm wondering if you guys know of good toys to keep her mind entertained.
Thanks!
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Mary & Mila
Helpful Member
FEMALE— DACHSHUND
Posts: 218
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Post by Mary & Mila on Jul 12, 2018 4:08:13 GMT -7
Hi Reuben, They all seem to like those toys that can be killed or shaken to death! How about trying one of the kong toys, the ones you can put a treat or two inside, if you feed Luna kibble you could mix things up by putting a small amount of her food into the kong as a distraction. You can also buy soft food from the pet store that you can put in the kong center as well. When Luna gets back to herself you could try these puzzle games, where the treat is hidden under certain cones, my doxie loves them! kind regards and best wishes to you both, Mary
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 12, 2018 6:13:01 GMT -7
Thanks! Reuben may not be back to himself for a while because he hasn't slept the last couple weeks while trying to work and take care of Luna - lol! Luna does have kong treats, we just put dog peanut butter inside it. The toy itself doesn't seem to interest her much. We can try other puzzles like you suggested, Luna used to like to steal my golf ball when putting on the putting green - then run inside, and get a treat to drop it (lol). Seems like a lot of fun things for her are going to be gone.
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Mary & Mila
Helpful Member
FEMALE— DACHSHUND
Posts: 218
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Post by Mary & Mila on Jul 12, 2018 8:57:33 GMT -7
Oooops, what was I thinking, I'll correct that right away! Sorry Reuben Luna can still pick up the golf ball when she is ok again, I don't see any harm in that Don't worry about the things she cannot do anymore, most dogs are super happy to just hang out with their owners anyway, and as long as you've got climbing/jumping precautions in place, I'm sure Luna will find other games to amuse herself with, chasing squirrels for example. Mary
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 13, 2018 3:27:56 GMT -7
Update: Luna had her staples removed.
Luna is no longer on any medication. Dr. Donaldson watched her walk in the office and said she's ready to start 5 minute walks a day and she can roam the house freely (in protected areas with no furniture of course).
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 34 lbs Prednisone stopped 7/13 Gabapentin (200mg) every 8 hours- stopped 7/13 Tramadol every 8 hours- stopped 7/13 Cephalexin (antiobiotic, every 8 hours- stopped Prilosec OTC every 12 hours - stopped ✚Trazodone 1-2 tablets (200mg) every 8-12 hours - stopped]
He recommended increasing 5 minutes every week, until we're back to "normal", for example if normal walks are 20 minutes - it will take 4 weeks to get there.
So Luna seemed a little happier to be allowed to roam half of the first floor yesterday afternoon.
She went to her usual scratch the fridge to get a peanut butter kong routine. She was resisting some of the kong peanut butter a little while on medicine.
So she ate maybe 3 of them yesterday (which is not abnormal for her), but this morning at 5:30 AM she threw up! Interestingly she didn't throw up at all in cage time/on medicine. We've noticed the kong peanut butter consistency doesn't look the same as it used to, so we might have to stop with that completely.
Dogwood said since she's cleared checkup we should talk to our vet now, but they said offer her half her normal food - if she holds it down, give her the rest.
Mom is going to try and pick up some I/D food from the vet (wet food meant for digestive problems), but I think it needs a prescription. Usually you feed one can for the whole day. I think we want to give just her first meal as I/D, see if she holds it down, then lunch is a mix, and dinner is back to dry food.
She's not "completely" off her medicine, if she was still taking prilosec OTC it would have been taken in an hour, but she's "done" so nothing left.
The throwup had a small piece of carrot and it was watery and yellow. I don't know if that's bile or what.
She hurled about a month ago, and this is what started to cause the yelping, which ended up herniating her disc weeks later and needing surgery. I hope her neck is strong enough to withstand this event.
Reuben
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 13, 2018 4:02:32 GMT -7
Such a good checkup, Reuben! Please keep us updated on how her stomach is doing and if she's able to keep food down today. She's doing very well so soon after surgery. Just need to get that belly feeling better.
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Post by Reuben & Luna on Jul 13, 2018 6:00:30 GMT -7
Thanks!
We went to our normal vet and got some cans of Hill's I/D prescriptive dog food. She went crazy to eat it, so we gave her about 1/3rd a can and a few pebbles of dry food. She seems happy and is sleeping now. Vet can give you 6 cans at a time, they expire in 2 years, and you usually feed one can a day (when trying to recover from something).
I don't know how long we should wait to see if she can hold it down, I'm guessing if she hasn't thrown up in 4 or 5 hours she can have a little more dry food than the I/D, and at dinner try to give just dry food (but not a lot)?
She does seem to want to go on a walk, now that she roams the house herself, when I put her body leash on her she quickly trots to the front door (of which she can never go out again, at least for the time being, as it has 3 steps). Spirits seem better (depressing living in a cage 24 hours a day when you really don't live in crates, I guess!). Also being constantly tethered to me outside the cage was probably driving her as much nuts as it was me, lol.
She's gotten on her hind legs to look at the kitchen tables 3 or 4 times since coming home, I've yelled no each time and she got down (in a little fear). The doctor said to lightly push on her chest, too. Is it bad to resort to fear (e.g., the bells I got her that hang on the patio door so she could ring them instead of stand on her hind legs to indicate she has to go out, she's TERRIFIED of!). Just the slightest ring and she gets scared (must be loud?). What if I were to ring this bell when she's on her hind legs and say no, I'm afraid she'll run in the house and get hurt though.
Thanks! Reuben
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