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Post by rollnndice on Sept 30, 2013 11:09:30 GMT -7
My name is Bonnie Sue. I'm an almost 7 year old Mini Dachshund who's just recently started having a back problem. I weigh 15 lbs 6 oz. I've been to the vet and I'm not sure if I received a specific ivdd diagnosis but he said it was a back problem. He thought she was treatable since at the time she could still stand , stumbling some, and her tail wagged still. He gave us some prednizone and after the first night it did seem to help her feel a bit better. But he also see a holistic vet in st louis. We took her up there and she used a tenser?sensor rod ?? and supposedly that helped her pick out some supplements that would help her. Here's the supplements she gave me,,, Cod liver oil, FeverFew, Gotu Kola, MSM, Zinc liver chelate, Canine Whole Body Support. Also recommended some all natural high protein foods which we haven't start yet because we don't have any access to them here and will have to order through the mail. She also put her on electro therapy treatment which we've been doing 2 times a day. The vet trip was on 9/20 and the holistic vet was on 9/25 Since the holistic vet treatments have started she's gotten worse,,,she's basically dragging her hind legs right now,,but still with some tail wag and she does still pee and poop. Not as often as normal but still does some. She had one instance a couple nights ago while doing her electro therapy treatment where she started panting and shivering ,,we set her on the ground and she proceeded to pee alotttt,,,,after that she was fine. It's the only time she's done that. Theres' been no xrays or MRI's yet,,,the holistic vet felt her back and said her problem was in middle of the back. She's resting in her crate all the time now except for meals or pottying. We're of course worried about her and have no clue if we're doing something wrong by not getting her into a hospital and checked out or?  ? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Jim |
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Sabrina
Helpful Member 
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471 
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Post by Sabrina on Sept 30, 2013 13:09:50 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Jim! I’m Sabrina. I’m so sorry Bonnie Sue is going through a disc episode. But I’m so glad you’ve found Dodger’sList! Have you already found your way around the Dodger’s List main site? If not, here are some good places to start reading: Overview: Healing during a disc episode - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmIndex to Overview: Phases of healing - www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmYES, Your Dog CAN Have a Great Quality of Life! - www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmFirst of all, is Bonnie Sue showing any signs of pain? “Signs of pain are holding the head in an unusual position...head held high or nose to the ground, shivering/trembling, not wanting to move much or moving gingerly, yelping, tight/tense stomach muscles, holding leg up flamingo style...not wanting to bear weight on the leg, just not their usual perky-interested-in-life self.” IVDD is typically quite painful, so it’s unusual for a dog with a disc episode not to be on pain medication: Pain Control: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmHave you researched and discussed with the holistic vet if the supplements she has given are safe to use while Bonnie Sue is on Prednisone? I’m so glad to hear you have Bonnie Sue on crate rest. 100% Strict Crate Rest is vital to healing, so be sure to feed her in her crate, and carry her out to her potty spot, then only allow the fewest sling-supported steps as possible: How to lift and carry - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/liftcarry.jpgwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/slingwalk.jpgwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies/Figure8.jpgWith conservative crate rest, she needs a full 8 weeks to develop enough scar tissue to help prevent the disc from further damage. In case you haven't seen these, here are some helpful links about crate rest: Conservative treatment for disc disease (IVDD) - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/conservative.htmCrate Rest Recovery Process - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmClark's helpful supplies for crate rest - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htmIs Bonnie Sue on any kind of stomach-protector? With prednisone, there’s a risk for GI problems, and often times we don’t know that GI problems are going on until they are advancing to a dangerous stage. For all dogs on anti-inflammatories, Dodger’s List urges you to ask your vet: “Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?”Medications used - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/IVDDcourse/medications_used.htmlBecause of the risk of GI upset with prednisone, it’s usually best to continue with the dog’s normal diet (assuming it’s healthful) – otherwise, it can be unclear if the GI upset is caused by the pred or the diet change. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/nutritionhealing.htmIs the electrotherapy something that you are doing at home? Or is it electroacupuncture? The holistic vet isn't doing any sort of Chiropractic treatment on Bonnie Sue, is she? Chiropractic treatment is not recommended for dogs with disc disease: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiro.htmCould you fill us in on a few more details so that we can better understand Bonnie Sue’s current situation? -- Is there still currently pain - shivering, shaking, crying when picked up or moved? -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? -- Can your dog sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? -- Eating and drinking OK? -- Poops OK - normal color and firmness no dark or bright red blood? -- Is Bonnie Sue now on 100% Strict crate rest? -- Have you spoken to the vets about Bonnie Sue getting worse? Hang in there! I know there is so much to learn about IVDD – when my dog was first diagnosed I had to read the Dodger’s List articles over and over before things started to make sense to me! Dodger’s List also has a great comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD. It’s great not only for your own education, but also to show to friends, family and those who will be caring for your dog (you can also order extras for your vets!) www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htmDo let us know more about Bonnie Sue – we are here to support you! ))Hugs!(( Sabrina |
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Post by rollnndice on Sept 30, 2013 20:30:02 GMT -7
Hi Sabrina,, Thanks for the welcome and your response.
Let's see,,, no I haven't had a chance to really go through the site yet but I will. Right now I just feel like I'm grasping at straws here hoping to save her because she's actually our 2nd girl that's had a back problem. We had Lucy (about 7 years old) and she had severe back problem and no responses at all from hind end, and we had her put down. Maybe too soon before weighing all of our options and I want to do that with Bonnie for sure (Since supposedly she's not as severe,,yet)
The only pain it seems she has is when you go to pick her up and she groans. She has held her head up some too but no whining or complaining heard then. She doesn't bear weight on her hind legs at all now,,at first she did and stumbled around,, now she's just dragging them. Still getting a small amount of tail wag now and then.
When we went to holistic vet,,,she told us to stop the prednizone when she gave us the supplements. It was wife and I's thought to give them again to her because the first couple doses the original vet had given her seemed to do some good. We have it to give her 1 a day but if you think we should stop we will??
Yeah the holistic vet didn't say a thing about any pain medicine,,,I know she didn't forget,,,just figuring maybeee she didn't think she needed it at the moment. She did say something about her pain threshold something or other?? Not being bad yet??
She's on no stomach protector but of course the holistic vet doesn't know we had started the prednizone back up so not her fault.
The electro therapy we are doing at home. She sent home the unit with us to use twice a day for like 10 days I think then I'm supposed to send it back to her. Bonnie sits still really good for her treatments.
No chiropractic treatment. The only thing the holistic vet did was to feel along her back until she said she found the spot where the problem is (middle of back).
Meds with doses:
Cod Liver oil 1/4 ts 2 times a day
Fever Few 1/2 tablet 3 times a day for 2 weeks
Gotu Kola 1/4 table 2 times a day for 4 weeks
MSM powder 1/3 ts 3 times a day for 3 weeks
Zinc Liver Chelate 1 tablet 3 times a day
Canine Whole Body Support 1/8 ts 2 times a day
She's peeing for sure I've seen that but with her legs dragging, I didn't see any poop today, but she did yesterday 2 times. Color and firmness were normal
She is as of today on 100% crate rest and I did call the holistic vet about her getting worse but had to leave a message with receptionist. She's supposed to call me back. I'm expecting call in the morning now.
It's 10:30pm here and she just went out for a pee and had her last dose of medicine which we mix in with some tuna and she gobbles it up easily mixed in like that.
Hope all this info help with ideas or any more help I can get thanks.
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Post by Pauliana on Sept 30, 2013 21:54:25 GMT -7
Hi Jim, welcome to Dodgerslist! It concerns me that the holistic vet recommended taking her off Prednisone without tapering. Tapering is for health reasons to signal the body to make it's own cortisol again. Glad you decided to continue giving it. She is dragging her hind legs because the disc is pressing into her spine. She needs to be seen by a Neurologist that is experienced in treating IVDD. Here is a link that tells what to look for in a Vet treating IVDD. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm I went through this with my own dog, Tyler..He woke up one morning unable to move his back legs.. It was a traumatic experience for us but he is now a living example that a dog can live a happy and fun life with IVDD after recovering. There are thousands of dogs that have recovered using either surgery or conservative treatment of crate rest and medications. It's knowledge of IVDD that will save Bonnie Sue and it is important to learn all you can from our website to protect her from treatments that may harm her..Sabrina gave you the best links to begin your reading for Bonnie Sue's sake. It's a good idea to read up on the herbs she is being given. Some have risky side effects such as Fever Few, can cause blood clotting problems. Gotu Kola can cause liver damage. Be sure to tell any Vet you take her to that she has been on Fever Few and Gotu Kola just in case of drug interactions. www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-933-FEVERFEW.aspx?activeIngredientId=933&activeIngredientName=FEVERFEWwww.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-753-GOTU%20KOLA.aspx?activeIngredientId=753&activeIngredientName=GOTU%20KOLAGlad to hear you began crate rest. It is lack of movement and rest that heals the disc.. Prednisone takes down the swelling. Disc herniations are painful, some dogs are stoic but it doesn't mean they aren't in pain and pain deters healing. It's important that she has pain medication so she can begin to heal. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmDo everything possible to preserve the spinal cord with good crate rest principals! The true success with IVDD is measured by the most important goal of returning your dog to a pain free, happy and full-of-love quality of life after crate rest. Should paralysis occur, please know that dogs do not view the lack of ability to walk as a minus as humans do. Dogs adjust to what is and then get on with the business of fully enjoying all that life has to offer until nerves repair.. REGAINING NEUROLOGICAL FUNCTION has no time limit for nerves to heal. Nerve repair is individual as each injury is different and each dog’s ability to heal is different. If deep pain perception (DPP) is present, even in paralyzed legs, there is a chance your dog may be able to walk again. For those dogs who have lost DPP, do know nerve regeneration can take place and that function may return. Once deep pain perception is regained, your dog has a chance at a walking recovery. Thousands of dogs on Dodgerslist have regained functions in as little as 2 weeks, others 11 months, and still others 3 years later. IVDD is a disease of patience to allow the body to heal on its own terms. Acupuncture and Laser Therapy stimulate the cell’s metabolism that leads to the body’s natural repair abilities and can be started at any time. Sending healing thoughts and wishes to Bonnie Sue. |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Oct 1, 2013 6:49:24 GMT -7
Hi Jim, Welcome to Dodgers List. I have worked with a holistic Vet and have studied herbalism and I am very concerned that your Vet has taken Bonnie Sue off of the prednisone and that she has nothing for pain. I am also concerned that her electrotherpay may be the type that causse muscle contractions. ALL of these are no good for IVDD. While the herbs and supplements that you have been prescibed help with inflammation and the stress of being ill or injured, Bonnie Sue needs the big guns of Western Medicine right now. Anti-inflammatories like Prednisone, pain medications, and a stomach protector like Pepcid. She also needs to be as still as possible - 100 % crate rest, only out to potty, with nothing else to stimulate her muscles, she will lose muscle mass during her 8 weeks of crate rest - no doubt about it - but muscle is quickly rebuilt AFTER the disc has had a chance to heal and form good scar tissue. Please consider finding an IVDD knowledgeable Vet that help Bonnie Sue through this episode. Accupuncture and laser therapy are great treatments for IVDD that help speed healing too.
Keep us posted. Keeping Bonnie Sue in thought and prayer.
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Post by rollnndice on Oct 1, 2013 14:31:34 GMT -7
Thanks for replies Stevieluv and Paulina. I took Bonnie back to our regular vet today just to check on the size of her abdomen. Worried about retaining water/pee and poop. He said she felt fine and the tensing up of her muscles probably were causing her belly to look bigger than normal. He tried to express her and didn't get a drop of pee out of her ( she had just pottied before I took her) , he did get one tiny piece of poo which is good I guess. LOL I also talked to holistic vet again today and told her about her hind end being worse and she wants me to go up there tomorrow and she's going to give us a different stimulator machine that she'll wear 24 hours a day for awhile. Instead of the unit we have with only 2 treatments a day right now. She's also wanting us to go ahead with the prednisone (I had reg vet give her a shot today while there to get her started again) have 5 mg pills for later. I'll ask her tomorrow about the pepcid for a stomach protector too. She's doing fine with her crate rest and taking her supplements right now. Hopefully I'll learn some more tomorrow too. Thanks again. Oh and reg vet did say that there definitely is DPP so that's a good thing. right?  |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 1, 2013 19:07:35 GMT -7
Jim, I too am very concerned that you have two vets who are just not comfortable in treating a disc episode. Herbs and supplements just are not the high powered meds that are needed with a disc problem to get swelling down and save neuro functions from diminishment. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 is the single most important part of the care during conservative treatment…it is to let the disc heal. The advice to cold stop prednisone w/o a taper is worrisome too. Wearing something that goes on her back 24 hours a day is something I question as well in keeping with appropriate IVDD care. What is means is more than ever YOU have to be up to speed on this disease, the meds and the care Bonnie needs to heal. Your self education can help you look in to finding an IVDD knowledgeable vet if it comes to that. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm [quick and easy how conservative treatment works-- a must read] Very experienced holistic vets will be hesitant to prescribe herbs when conventional medication (prednisone)is already in use for a disc episode. The reason is there is no asurity there would not be any interactions with the other medications that could make your dog sick or worse. There is no regulation of herbs to ensure the contents match the ingredients listed on the label. We owners have to play the role the nurse would in a hospital, we have to know our dog's meds to protect them, double check for errors using contraindicated things. Did you Google each of the supplements yourself to know what Bonnie is taking? I just Googled to find out FeverFew --can increase or decrease the effect of meds whic are broken down by the liver such as Prednisone. --FeverFew slows clotting not a good companion when taking prednisone. Pepcid AC is a required stomach protector when taking prednisone to help prevent bleeding ulcers. As SteiveLuv remarked, it is really is the big gun meds that Bonnie needs, not herbs and supplements. Please let us know --the exact name of the shot Bonnie got -- The dose of prednisone in mgs and how often she is supposed to take it. -- That Pepcid AC is now on board to protect her stomach. The way to ask is: Is there any health reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC? If there is no reason, the do give 5mg Pepcid AC 30 mins before prednisone and thereafter every 12 hours. Be sure to give a meal with the Prednisone -- May I recommend you choose one vet for western medications (prednisone, pain meds, and pepcid AC) and another for only the type of therapies that are productive with an IVDD episode such as acupuncture or laser light therapy. Having two vets prescribing different things which could end up being contraindicated can be unhealthy for Bonnie. As of today do you observe any hints of pain such as trembling, yelping, not her usual perky self, tight tense tummy muscles? There is still very good hope to have Bonnie back enjoying family life again after 8 weeks of crate rest and proper IVDD medications to help the swelling, give comfort from pain AND a stomach protector. |
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Post by rollnndice on Oct 3, 2013 12:33:56 GMT -7
Thanks for reply Paula,,
Yes Bonnies getting 100% crate rest for sure.
I went to the regular vet day before yesterday to have him check her for urine retention and show me how to express the bladder. And she wasn't retaining anything ,,which is good I guess but her stomach muscles he said were just tensed up making her look bloated.
We did confer between him and the holistic vet and put her back on the prednizone. I don't have the sheet from regular vet so I can't tell ya the exact name of the med given in a shot that day. I do know it was 16mg? Something like dexamezone? not write spelling at all ,,just unsure. She's not on prednizone pills 5 mgs each 2 times a day for 2 days then down to 1 time a day for the next week.
Yesterday I took her back to st louis to the holistic vet. She wasn't improving with the electro stimulator with the probes a couple times a day. So she wanted to put her on a different electro stimulator that she wears for 24 hours a day ,,,she'll wear it for 5 days,,,they shaved her and put four electrodes on her then put a blue snuggie sweater type thing on to hold them in place, then also put a harness on her to help hold her back straight. After the 5 days with this unit we go back to the original unit ,, using the probes 2 times a day treatment for the next 2 weeks,,then we have a return visit to check progress.
Holistic vet knows all the side effects of the supplements because we talked about each one of them extensively. As for the fever few, she doesn't think that will be a problem with Bonnies specific condition. And I asked about the pepcid and she said she wouldn't have any problems there because of the limited length of time she'll be on the prednizone.
This morning when I took Bonnie out for her first potty I set her down and kinda held her hips and she did manage to wobbly stand with little help from me while she peed. That was an improvement over the past few days for sure.
The holistic vet also gave me a couple new exercises to do with her hind end to try to help keep some muscle tone and gave me a giddyup device type sling thing to help keep her up and walk her around a little in a kiddy pool too. Still gotta get a kiddy pool,,,but doing the hind end exercises already too.
Bonnies been resting in playpen we got her in the living room real good today so she's been comfy.
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Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Oct 3, 2013 14:32:29 GMT -7
Hi Jim, I'm happy to hear Bonnie Sue has been resting comfortably today, but I'm concerned about the holistic vet instructing you to get a kiddy pool. Water therapy should not be done until after all 8 weeks of conservative crate rest are finished: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htmThe best thing you can do is to research everything yourself so that you know if a particular vet is recommending helpful or harmful things. I'm concerned about about the "harness" to "help hold her back straight" - was this a product custom-fitted to Bonnie Sue? How often does she wear it? According to Dr. Andrew Isaacs, DVM Diplomate ACVIM (Neurology), "Therefore, as a general statement, "back braces" should be used under the supervision of a veterinarian familiar and knowledgeable with the treatment of intervertebral disk disease." www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/backbraces.htmI'm concerned because if the holistic vet is recommending water therapy to you to start now, then that vet isn't knowledgeable about treating IVDD with 100% Strict Crate Rest. Here is an article on Dodger'sList about Massage & Passive exercise: The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a paralyzed dog on conservative treatment. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmIt's a good idea to check the exercises the holistic vet gave you against this article to be sure they will not cause more damage to Bonnie Sue's disc. I'm glad that the Pred is now at the anti-inflammatory dose, but do know that 2 days and then a taper is a very short amount of time. "Swelling of the spinal cord may take anywhere from 1-2 weeks with post-op swelling to over a month on a steroid to resolve the pain caused by inflammation during conservative treatment": www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmIf when you taper the steroid you see signs of pain, then it's time to report that to the vet who prescribed the pred so that that vet can give the ok for Bonnie Sue to remain on the 5mg pred 2x/day. Just so that we're all on the same page: -- Are Bonnie Sue's stomach muscles still looking tense? If so, that is a sign of pain. -- Is the PepcidAC on board? ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 4, 2013 14:09:44 GMT -7
Jim, I too am concerned this holistic vet is not comfortable in treating this disc problem.
Right now the single most important part of conservative treatment is the limited movement part…the 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out of the recovery suite to potty. Water therapy must wait until it is safe for the disc… after all 8 weeks have allowed the disc to form good secure scar tissue. Muscles will come back quickly when 8 weeks is over and it is safe for the disc. The spinal cord may never come back if too much damage is caused by water therapy. Water therapy is just a very, very bad idea during conservative treatment. It is a clear sign this holistic vet is not aware of the proper treatment for a disc episode.
Putting a harness on a painful dog is also a concern of the discomfort to be caused along with potential for too much movement for the spinal cord in getting the thing on. The recovery suite is perfect in doing the job of limiting movement.
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Post by rollnndice on Oct 4, 2013 20:49:10 GMT -7
Thanks Paula and Sabrina,
We haven't gotten a kiddie pool yet and kinda doubt we will for awhile,,going along with your thoughts with that.
Actually I'm very impressed by the holistic vet and her operation. Of course I'm still leary of anything not mainstream, but I'm giving it a chance.
Bonnies getting her rest and using her stimulator unit and seems to be adjusting well to the gear she's wearing. The electrodes with a snuggie on top to keep them in place and harness over top of that. We don't have to take the harness off for her to potty and she seems to rest well as she is.
Last night she'd had an pee accident (our fault being late) so we did remove everything overnite while we washed snuggie etc. This morning when I pottied her first thing she went out without anything on. There was a squirrel on side of tree that I hadn't seen and when I set Bonnie down and she saw it she actually wobbly ran about 8' before I had chance to yell stop (and she did) ,,she barked some and her tail was wagging big time. I know that wasn't good for her back, but sure gave me hope that there's something there still. Just seeing her tail wag like that and the excitement in her felt great to me.
After I got her in and fed breakfast n supplements. I got the electrodes and rest of her gear back on her and back in her playpen she went (yes she has a playpen to lie in now) It's much easier to get her in and out of than her crate and she doesn't do hardly any moving around in it with plenty of blankets for support and comfort.
She's just rested the rest of the day except for her potty trips peeing and pooping still are just fine.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,549
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 5, 2013 7:44:01 GMT -7
Jim, while that was a very dangerous attempt to run for the early healing disc, what you saw was a very good sign of the self healing of the nerves!!!
Pat on the back on your understanding for disc healing being a priority over bulking up muscles during these 8 weeks. Your commitment to the 100% STRICT rest is what will ensure Bonnie has the very best opportunity to heal.
As Bonnie is feeling better it will be a challenge any time she is out of the recovery suite to protect her from herself. I agrree a playpen really does make a nice recovery suite. I found setting up an ex-pen or other kind of a fence in the grass with a 6 foot diameter area is what made a great deal of difference. The dog then can see their limit both visually and physically to not just take the minimum footsteps but to not be able to dart off after something. With these guys we just have to be one step ahead to protect them from themselves.
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Post by rollnndice on Nov 5, 2013 15:33:22 GMT -7
Heres the most recent news about Bonnie Sue. She's still on her crate rest and is actually alot perkier than before and of course wanting to be mobile when we take her out to potty. We no longer use the giddyup rope on her for potty time,,,she squats well and can walk seemingly without pain enough to sniff some and get to her potty spots. Then we pick her up and bring her in. She's still getting alpha stim treatments 2 times a day and still getting her supplements. With ▼ prednazone being weaned way down right now and others all about the same. We've definitely seem alot of improvement so far so were really optomistic that she'll get back to normal eventually. She sure hasn't lost her appetite at all either.
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? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Jim
