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Post by Sara & Murphy on May 10, 2024 7:40:05 GMT -7
[Original subject line:Cervical IVDD episode, can't use front legs ]
Hello DodgerList.
Thank you in advance for the support and resources you provide. In 2018, I used the conservative forum for guidance when my doxie Murphy lost the use of his back legs. He made a full recovery with meds and crate rest. This latest episode with him is different, however. I'll answer questions below.
QUESTIONS
☆ 1 No, pain well controlled on medications.
★2 13 lbs. Age? Approximately 10 years
Carprofen 12.5 mg twice daily with food
Tramadol 12.5 mg every 8 hours
Methocarbamol 125 mg every 8 hours
Clavamox 62.5 mg twice daily
Famatodine 5 mg twice daily 30 minutes before taking carprofen
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
13lbs 10y.o.
Carprofen as of 5/6: 12.5mg 2x/day for how many days? Then a TEST STOP for _ pain and _neuro
traMADol 12.5 mgs 3x/day
methocarbamol 125 mgs 3x/day
clavamox 62.5 mg 2x/day
famotidine 5 mgs 2x/day]
☆ 3 stomach damage? No
☆ 4 What breed? Dachshund Your dog’s name? Murphy Your name? Sara
☆ 5 🔘 Likely disc herniation DVM, Yes
☆ 6 🔘 date you saw the vet for CONSERVATIVE treatment? 5/6/2024
☆ 7 🔘 bladder control? Yes, although more to say about this... vet catharized bladder on 5/6/24 and 5/7/24 to empty bladder to avoid distention and retention. Retention was reason for starting 10 days of Clavamox. In last 24 hours has voided twice daily into grass with human supporting shoulders.
☆ 8 Currently can your dog wobbly walk? No. Move legs at all? Does not move front legs. Wags Yes
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,793
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Post by PaulaM on May 10, 2024 7:59:38 GMT -7
Sara, sorry to hear another disc episode. A neck disc can take longer or be more painful due to having to move the head when any other part of the body moves. These are the extra you can do at home to help: ==> dodgerslist.com/2020/05/05/cervical-care-tips/For how many days is the carprofen to be dosed. That is important info for you and us to be aware in advance of the stop. Here is a good refresher on how anti-inflammatory such as carprofen are used during a disc episode. --- let us know what you have worked out in advance of carprofen stop as your plan b if pain should surface when the vet is not open  *Do you need a front end sling for potty times? Or is his harness sufficient support? 1) DIY sweatshirt sling...can be used for front or the back legs. Use same concept with cut out leg holes in a long strip of towel: www.lyonpuffpetsit.com/htmlslp/sling.htmlFYI: Remember to bookmark Murphy's thread to get auto e-mail alerts when a reply appears. Go to the CONSERVATIVE board: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/6/conservative 1. Look for your dog's thread and checkmark it. 2. Look for the white ACTIONS button towards top. 3. Select “Notification Options" from the pull down menu — check mark “NEW POST” change from never to INSTANT email — press the SAVE button. Click the “x” to close the window 4. Next choose the “Bookmark” See the tiny book symbol now!  **Is there any specific concern you have, that we might address? |
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Post by Sara & Murphy on May 10, 2024 8:11:39 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
Thank you for your quick reply. I appreciate the resources you shared.
No plan for how many days of dosing carprofen. It's on my question list for the vet.
Specific concerns...
1) tips on caring for a dog unable to use front legs (we've tried his harness for support, but he seemed unsure/painful so we stopped using it. We may give the tshirt sling a try).
2) looking for hope that he can recover. He's eating/drinking well and interested in life. We're taking it day by day.
Thank you so much!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 10, 2024 13:36:01 GMT -7
Happy to hear that Murphy's pain is controlled, and he is back to being interested in life.
There is always hope. Many dogs have recovered with conservative care.
You can refresh your knowledge of crate rest with the info below:
Murphy may be unsure about being supported by his harness because the experience is new to him. He may adjust to being supported like this in time. There are commercial slings designed for dogs with front leg issues, but the t-shirt harness is soft, and he may find it easier to tolerate.
If you feel being supported by his harness is causing him pain, then it may be best to carry him to the potty place and support him with your hands. If, at 13 lbs you cannot comfortably carry Murphy for any length of time, consider putting casters on the crate. This would allow the crate to be easily moved towards the door. Another option is putting a pee pad right outside the crate. You might have to encourage him to use the pee pad by placing a paper towel with a little urine from another dog on it. I had to do this for my dog during his disc episode. Either of these methods would minimize the movement of Murphy's spine and save your own back from having to carry him. |
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Post by Sara & Murphy on May 15, 2024 14:07:30 GMT -7
Hello DodgersList,
I want to provide an update. Murphy is day 11 today from his onset of this neck disc episode (5/4/24).
Things that are going well:
Urinating 5-6 times daily
Pooping 1-2 times daily
Eating his normal food, normal amount with the normal amount of water added
Tolerating crate rest ok
Sleeping/napping as normal, seems comfortable
Pain appears controlled nearly all the time. He's rarely tremulous and when he is, it seems like it's a need-to-potty issue, not necessarily a pain issue
Bright-eyed
Wagging tail at happy talk
Engaged in what's happening in the home
Ongoing concerns:
Unable to use front limbs
Will slightly pull L front paw away from pain stimulus,
doesn't pull R front paw away
Occasional wincing when moving in crate (at most once a day, that we have observed)
He saw his general vet [5/15] today. She was hoping for a better neuro response in front limbs, but we are not too discouraged because we know that takes a long time. She asked us our thoughts if he plateaus at this point (no further improvement in neuro function of the limbs). We didn't really know how to respond other than explaining we know healing from this is a long process and it's only day 11.
He had a metabolic blood panel drawn today to check kidney and liver function related to use of carprofen. Vet wants him to stay on carprofen for now since he does show occasional signs of pain.
She said we could stop the ➖ methocarbamol as he seems pretty relaxed, less tense in body than last week. We will keep all other meds the same and I listed those below.
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
13.75 lbs 10y.o.
Carprofen as of 5/6: 12.5mg 2x/day for how many days? then a TEST STOP for _ pain and _neuro
traMADol 12.5 mgs 3x/day
clavamox 62.5 mg 2x/day
famotidine 5 mgs 2x/day]
His weight today 5/15/24 was 13.75 lbs (vet records say 14 lbs on 5/6/24)
Carprofen 12.5 mg twice daily with food
Tramadol 12.5 mg every 8 hours
Famatodine 5 mg twice daily 30 minutes before carprofen
She referred us to a partner vet who does acupuncture. I've reviewed the details about acupuncture and laser therapy on DodgersList. We are waiting for a call from the vet to discuss this so we are informed in our decision. Our questions are:
How do we know when it's the right time to do acupuncture?
Any pain with acupuncture?
Frequency of appointments?
Duration of appointments?
Results to hope for?
Cost?
I understand that ideally acupuncture would be done at our home to avoid transport to the vet. I will ask if this is an option. I am curious if other DodgersList members have experience with acupuncture with a neck disk episode.
Thank you for all the support and information sharing.
With gratitude,
Sara and Murphy
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 15, 2024 14:50:09 GMT -7
Nice to hear that Murphy is bright-eyed and wagging his tail.
I am so glad you understand that nerve healing takes time. Neck discs take longer to heal than back discs. Disappointed to hear your vet ask about plateauing so early in the healing process.
Wincing in pain once a day is concerning. There should be no pain. Even the vet, who does not see Murphy as often as you do at home, mentioned he was showing signs of pain. Since you are stopping methocarbamol now, watch carefully for any increase in pain. If you see any, let the vet know immediately so pain meds can be adjusted.
Checking the paws for movement away from pain stimulus does not really give useful information. Movement away from pain is often a reflex, like when you move your hand away from a hot stove. Acupuncture can be helpful during an IVDD episode. It can be started at any time. There should not be pain, but Murphy may be tired afterward. Frequency and duration may vary, but I know some of our members go twice a seek. Acupuncture is used to help re-establish the connection between the nerves and the body. I don't know the cost, but maybe some of our members who have used acupuncture will share their experiences.
One of our moderators used acupuncture during her dog's disc episode. She mentioned it was important to ask about the credentials of the acupuncturist, how long was their training and if they have experience treating dogs with IVDD. |
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Post by Sara & Murphy on May 25, 2024 9:20:29 GMT -7
Good morning!
Murphy is 3 weeks post his most recent disc episode (May 4, 2024, neck). We have been encouraged by his progress, as has the vet. It's slow but we are seeing progress, for example: he is moving front legs now (especially when excited and when being held on with his feet to the ground when outside); he is able to bare weight on the front legs without human support as long as he stands still; he shows signs of feeling/sensation in the front paws.
We continue to crate rest him.
We discontinued tramadol on 5/20/2024 because he had not shown any signs of pain for several days. We have tramadol on-hand should pain return.
His current meds are as follows:
Carprofen 12.5 mg twice daily with food
Famatodine 5 mg twice daily 30 minutes before carprofen
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
13.75 lbs 10y.o.
Carprofen as of 5/6: 12.5mg 2x/day for how many days? then a TEST STOP for _ pain and _neuro
traMADol 12.5 mgs 3x/day stopped 5/10
clavamox 62.5 mg 2x/day STOPPED
famotidine 5 mgs 2x/day]
The vet wants a "few more weeks" of carprofen. She talked to us about Librela (bedinvetmab injection) which would be in place of carprofen. It's a once-monthly injection of a monoclonal antibody that controls osteoarthritis pain in dogs. Does anyone on DodgersList has experience with this medication?
Murphy has had 3 acupuncture treatments in the last 10 days. For other followers' reference, where we live (central Wisconsin), acupuncture is $99/treatment. The initial treatment was $160 because it included a consultation. One of the vets at our clinic is certified in acupuncture. It's impossible to know the role of acupuncture in Murphy's progress, however he has made progress since receiving treatment. Next week he will have an electro-acupuncture treatment where they will focus treatment on the forelimb area (his area of paralysis).
We continue to be hopeful Murphy will walk again and our vet said the same. Patience! We are so grateful he is happy and eating/drinking/sleeping/urinating/pooping well and treasure each day with him.
We wish all our DodgersList friends a wonderful weekend.
With gratitude,
Sara and Murphy
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,793
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Post by PaulaM on May 25, 2024 11:32:58 GMT -7
Sara, are you able to speak to the issue of the disc epsiode itself.
--- Normally it is the stop of carprofen when the pain med is also stopped. This allows a very fast and effective method to assess of all of the spinal cord swelling is gone or not.
--- Usually the amount of time on the anti-inflammatory must be guessed at. The usual time is maybe a 7-day course or even a 14-day course and then STOP. That gives you, the owner clear opporunity to asssess of pain is really gone without any meds at all on board. Meds on board would blindfold you to the reality of pain around the cord existing.
Todate Murphy has been on carprofen for 20 days!
Did you discuss if the carprofen stop could be on the same date as you stopped traMADol or even today? Carprofen has advserse side effects. IF it is not needed because the benefit of all spinal cord pain is gone, then all there is left are the side effects
Once pain is thought to be observed fully gone, then it would surely be a good idea to investigate other things for arthritis.
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Post by Sara & Murphy on May 25, 2024 12:24:43 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
Thank you for your quick reply and comments. I've discussed the timeline for discontinuing the carprofen at each vet visit. The vet said she wants to "make sure all inflammation is gone" and therefore continue to carprofen. I understand your concerns and rationale for stopping. I will contact the vet to ask if she would support stopping it.
Thank you!
Sara
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Post by Sara & Murphy on Jun 3, 2024 1:39:21 GMT -7
Hello DodgersList, With vet approval, carprofen and famatodine were stopped 5/29/24. We didn’t see any change - pain did not return.
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
13.75 lbs 10y.o.
5/10 confirmed bladder control. Does not move front legs
6/3 owner reports uses l.f. leg to push up/ reposition in his crate but not the right leg..
Carprofen as of 5/6: 12.5mg 2x/day for 34 days; 5/29 TEST STOP for _ pain and _neuro
traMADol 12.5 mgs 3x/day STOPPED 5/10
famotidine 5 mgs 2x/day STOPPED 5/29]
It’s been 4 weeks since this episode began. Murphy is not walking but uses front legs to push himself up/reposition in his crate. His left front leg is stronger and more responsive than the right one, which has always been the case in this episode.
We are a bit weary from the 4 weeks of this episode but are remaining positive. He has acupuncture scheduled again this week. Last week the vet tried electro-acupuncture but he was quite rambunctious that day so the vet decided to just do the dry needle acupuncture that he’d had previously.
Thank you for the continued support and resource-sharing.
Sara
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,793
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 3, 2024 12:47:55 GMT -7
Sara, GOOD JOB on the carprofen stop!!!!! It can take 4-7 days before carprofen has fully left the body. So continue to monitor for any pain surfacing. i.postimg.cc/CKk1rYvC/ROM.jpgThis newly added treatment is for you to remind us on May 6 (7 days post carprofen) that you have observed no new or increased pain with the carprofen stop.
We will be able to share with you safe at-home things. Things that are very, very gentle you can do for those front legs to keep them healthy while waiting Murphy's ability to self heal his own nerves. Continue to do the single most effective and important of care: --- keep Murphy at home inside of his recovery suite. --- He is already showing you he has self-healed his nerves enough to push up and reposition in the crate. Can he push up enough to get into a stand by himself with the front legs? |
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Post by Sara & Murphy on Jun 4, 2024 6:53:53 GMT -7
Good morning, DodgersList,
Murphy is able to push up with his left front leg, but not with the right. He’s not able to come to a standing position on his own, but I feel it may be possible in the next few weeks. He’s doing a lot more repositioning of himself in the crate, essentially by crawling around.
We welcome any suggestions for gentle exercises [on graduation day 7/1].
Many thanks!
Sara and Murphy
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 4, 2024 13:35:03 GMT -7
During recovery, it is common for one leg to be stronger than the other. Over time, the right leg may catch up.
Murphy's nerves are healing and he is becoming stronger. Pushing himself up with his left leg and repositioning himself more frequently tells us that. You are both more than halfway through the 8 weeks of crate rest and Murphy is doing well.
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Post by Sara & Murphy on Jul 2, 2024 8:19:50 GMT -7
Good morning, DodgersList, Update on Murphy: He continues to progress with his healing. We are using an ex-pen in the yard to limit his movement but give him some "freedom" to sniff and enjoy the grass and do his business. He is able to walk on level ground without assistance. His left forelimb supports him well. His right forelimb is not as strong and about 25% of the time he stumbles, mostly because he can't control that leg as well and the paw sometimes knuckles. He has another acupuncture scheduled for Friday 7/5. We continue to crate him when we are unable to be right at his side. He wants to get on the furniture and is reactive to anything he hears or sees that may indicate food or a visitor in the driveway which could cause him to jump. We welcome suggestions for exercises to start with him at this point. His graduation day was yesterday and he's 8.5 weeks post onset of this neck episode (5/4/2024). Many thanks and happy 4th of July! Sara and Murphy
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 2, 2024 13:39:28 GMT -7
Congratulations on Murphy's graduation!
On Graduation Day, a slow re-introduction back to physical activity can begin.
Determine how you are going to ease back into more normal activity at graduation. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Murphy should not have free rein of the house and yard immediately. Take a look at our information and then come up with a plan to gradually increase activity over about a month's time following the end of crate rest.
Here is a sample schedule to slowly introduce your dog back to family life and physical activity: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly NOTE: A hallway is a general term for a distance of 4-8 yards. It doesn't have to be the hallway. The ideal is actually a non slippery surface, so if your hallway's floor is slippery, it is preferred to take the dog outside and walk it on grass, soil or on an old carpet.
Jumping on furniture can be stopped by putting large pillows on the furniture. Another idea is to make a furniture blocker. Info on how to do this is here:
You can teach Murphy to use a ramp to get up and down avoiding pressure on the back. Information on ramp training is at the link below:
Aqua therapy can be very helpful. You can work with Murphy at home or find a rehab center that uses underwater treadmills. Info on aqua therapy:
Nose work can is safe and can be fun. I used the muffin tin game with my dog after his crate rest. You can read about that and other tips here:
Generally Murphy can build up to doing almost everything he did before the disc episode. A few things need to be avoided forever:
No more stairs or steps. Use ramps indoors No more jumping up or down, those activities increase impact on the spine. No tug-o-war, pulling games. No shaking toys. No zig zag running. No rambunctious playing with other dogs. Teach your dog to not pull on the leash No sitting up or standing on back legs. Teach your dog to sit down rather than jump
AND keep all four feet on the ground
We invite you to hop on to our educational bandwagon team. Education about disc disease is our number one mission! We wish we did not have to hear of another dog that was put to sleep because of disc disease, nor one denied the correct principles of STRICT rest to help them heal. We would like all of our members to pay forward for the help they have received with their dog by helping us educate! You can get free literature to distribute below :
Lots more information about moving forward with your IVDD dog is here: dodgerslist.com/after-graduation-living-with-ivdd/ |
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