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Post by Claire Mcnaney on Mar 29, 2024 13:36:05 GMT -7
hi, I wonder if you could offer some advice?
mama is approximately 11 years, I rescued her from Sri Lanka around 4 years old as an abused street dog. 2 weeks ago she started unable to.correct her back paws. Sunday last week and she has lost all use of back legs. vets tested DPS [none] and confirm she has none and said I need to put to sleep.
she doesn't appear to be in pain, still has control of bowels and is sleeping most of the day.
my husband says I need to put her to sleep as I'm being cruel.
I don't know what to do, she is a very anxious dog and I'm worried I'm causing her more anxiety by keeping her alive 😞
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Mar 29, 2024 14:06:57 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. We are glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve learned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you! Learn more about us and how we team up with veterinarians: dodgerslist.com/about-team-dodgerslist/Putting a dog to sleep is NEVER an appropriate treatment for IVDD. Dogs can and do heal. Please take a look at the information we have at the link below:
You do not mention in your post if the vet diagnosed your dog with IVDD. IVDD is sometimes called a herniated, bulging or slipped disc. Here at Dodgerslist we know a lot about IVDD. Everyone here has or has had a dog with this disease.
If you suspect an IVDD episode, the most important thing you can do for your dog is to start very strict crate rest. The crate rest must be very strict. STRICT means: - no laps - no couches - no baths - no sleeping with you - no chiro therapy - no dragging or meandering at potty times Carry her to and from the potty place. You can then support her with your hands or use a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) to support her.
You can think of the crate as a sort of cast for a broken arm. The cast immobilizes the arm so that the broken bone can heal. We cannot put a dog's spine in a cast so we use the crate to immobilize it, so the disc can heal. It takes 8 weeks of 24/7 crating for this to happen.
You do not mention any medications. IVDD is typically treated with an anti-inflammatory. It is inflammation of the nerves of the spinal cord that causes neuro deficits like paralysis or trouble walking. This inflammation is typically painful, so pain meds are also prescribed. Along with an anti-inflammatory and pain meds, a stomach protector like Pepcid AC is used to prevent stomach damage from excess acid, which is a side effect of all anti-inflammatories. Please speak to your vet about these meds right away.
DPS is tricky to recognize and general DVM vets often get it wrong. If the vet that said your dog does not have DPS is not a board certified neuro or ortho (ACVIM or ACVS) it is possible your dog has DPS. When a dog does not have DPS, he will not have bladder or bowel control. If your dog has bowel control, meaning she can hold it in until she is in an appropriate spot, she has DPS.
I have more info to share with you, but I wanted to give you this info as soon as I could.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Mar 29, 2024 14:35:15 GMT -7
There is no cruelty in giving your dog proper treatment and time to heal. If you are worried about anxiety, the vet can prescribe medication like trazadone or acepromazine to help her with that. These type of meds may not even be needed, because there are other things you can do to make her crate rest time comfortable. You can read about them here:
I spoke in my earlier post about meds that are often prescribed. More information about meds is here:
You didn't mention pain but IVDD is usually painful. The signs of pain we look for are:
- shivering-trembling - yelping when picked up or moved - tight tense tummy -arched back, ears pinned back - restless, can't find a comfortable position - slow or reluctant to move in suite such as shift positions - not their normal perky interested in life selves
If a neck disc: - head held high/ nose to the ground - looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. - not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain - holds front or back leg up flamingo style not wanting to bear weight
Have no patience with pain. Pain will only slow the healing process. If you are seeing any of the above signs, let the vet know right away, so pain meds can be added or adjusted.
Some information about the importance of crate rest and how best to set up the crate is here: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process
You can learn more about IVDD and the phases of healing here: dodgerslist.com/in-the-right-place
Your vet may not have enough experience with IVDD if she does not understand that IVDD is a treatable disease. Strongly consider seeing out a vet that knows this disease. This article shows what to look for in a vet that treats IVDD dodgerslist.com/2020/05/10/find-ivdd-vet/ and
Please keep us up to date on your dog's treatment. We will be wanting to hear.
My name is Romy. What is your dog's name?
It is very scary when our dogs have IVDD. It is less so when we learn all we can about the disease. Our main website has lots more information: www.dodgerslist.com |
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Post by Claire & Mama on Mar 29, 2024 15:10:17 GMT -7
hi, I wonder if you could offer some advice?
[Original subject line: Mama Street Dog]
Mama is approximately 11 years, I rescued her from Sri Lanka around 4 years old as an abused street dog. In Sri Lanka she had boiling water thrown over her back. She lives with me in the UK.
She has always has a slow reaction in correcting her rear paws (2 seconds) and walked with a stiff gait.
Friday 15th March weeks ago she started unable to correct her back paws. Sunday 24th March she has lost all use of back legs.
On Tuesday 26th my vet who is a general practcie vet, tested Deep Pain Sensation and confirm she has none and said I need to put her to sleep. Vet said the nerves between her back legs and brain are too badly damaged. Mama.has not had any scans or anything other than a generic Vet consult. She is not insured and we can't afford surgery or scans.
Since that time she has been on her bed, although I have allowed her to drag herself around the garden briefly 2 times a day to toilet (I only just found your website) and I have had her in a dog buggy the past 2 days to get some fresh air.
She doesn't appear to be in pain, still has control of bowels and is sleeping most of the day. She does tremble on occasion, no yelping, appears comfortable in her bed, no tail wagging for joy, is able to squat her legs to toilet but then falls to the floor afterwards. She is drinking far more than usual, normally she is very reluctant to drink at all out of fear of drinking from a bowl, she prefers puddles. The past few days she has been drinking for about 2 minutes a day from the outdoor bowl.
She weighs 12kg and has been on 12mls (1.5mg/ml) meloxidyl once per day since before Christmas, due to her chewing rear legs which we suspected was arthritis.
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
26.5 lbs/12kg 11 y.o.
Vet diagnosis: ______
no crate rest Rx'd, STRICT rest as of 3/29
Rear legs drag.
Meloxidyl (1.5mg/ml) as of 3/29: 18mg (12mL) 1x/day for ? days then STOP TEST for pain/neuro
Mama needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of Meloxidyl! ]
My husband says I need to put her to sleep as I'm being cruel.
I don't know what to do, she is a very anxious dog and I'm worried I'm causing her more anxiety by keeping her alive 😞
A charity is sending us some wheels to try her out on but I understand this wouldn't be suitable until complete rest of 8 weeks.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,561
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 29, 2024 15:44:07 GMT -7
Welcome! My name is Paula, what's yours. Did you get a diagnosis that this was a disc problem, slipped disc or any name of that nature. If so... The single most important care is to keep her back with limited movement. Limited movement allows the disc to heal over 8 weeks time. Nerves too can heal. They may or may not come back in that short of time the disc takes to heal in. Think more in terms of months, rather than days and weeks for the slowest part of the body to heal. 1. Surgeons at Downs Veterinary Practice explain conservative treatment to veterinarians : "It should be emphasised in every case that strict compliance can mean the difference between a successful outcome and progression to irreversible neurological injury. Cases with suspected IVDD should be confined to an area just large enough to accommodate a bed (at floor level) and feed bowls."
You have questions I know. You are curious trying to imagine how that would work in daily care. Here are your answers with details with lots of tips and ideas to make the next weeks of disc healing rest go smoother: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/ STRICT REST MEANS: ◼︎ Avoid dangerous detours. Follow the "Roadmap." Tape it to your fridge. D/L and print out: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf ◼︎No laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎No chiro therapy whys: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/22/chiropractic/◼︎ Carry to and from the potty place supporting both ends. No dragging or meandering at potty times. Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! ◼︎No PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎At home laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best. ◼︎ Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. Tell us the details about her neuro status: 1) Move the legs at all (such as attempt to scratch an ear, or to reposition her body in the suite)? 2) Or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk? 3) Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine which is bladder control - OR- do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted which are indication of an overflowing bladder and loss of bladder control? YOU can be strong and help Mama! Educate your hubby and vet...as you learn about disc episode care here. Please let us know the diagnosis (intervertebral disc disease, pinched nerve, slipped disc) ...that is important, then we have lots to share. What in particular can we provide information for you? |
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Post by Claire & Mama on Mar 29, 2024 15:54:35 GMT -7
Hi, I'm claire. Thank you for your reply.
The vet didn't give a specific diagnosis, just that the nerves to her brain are most likely irreparably damaged,she has no deep pain and I should put her to sleep.
She doesn't move her tail, however she can squat to wee and her tail lifts to poo.
Sorry I missed a question, she can't move her legs at all, although when I have scratched and rubbed her back legs, they outstretch straight. The vet says this is because there is a loop of nerves within the leg that don't seem to be damaged, it's the nerves to the brain that are damaged.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,561
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 29, 2024 16:05:59 GMT -7
do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted which are indication of an overflowing bladder and loss of bladder control?
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Post by Claire & Mama on Mar 29, 2024 16:08:32 GMT -7
No her bed is dry and there are no leaks. She was trembling quite a lot yesterday, and she has gnawed a 1 inch open wound on her hind leg, but she has done this quite a lot over the past few months. I'm worried she in pain and I'm extending her misery  |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,561
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 29, 2024 16:10:27 GMT -7
Help us determine Mama's neuro status.
There is a need to definately find out if she still has bladder control or needs you to express the bladder.
MONITORING NEURO FUNCTIONS
As damage to the spinal cord increases, there can be a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions if excessive back/neck movement for example.
1. Pain with initial tear of disc and ensuing swelling
2. Wobbly walking
legs cross
3. Nails/toes scuffing floor
4. Paws knuckle under. Dog is slow to correct or can't right the paw(s) at all
5. Weak/little leg movement,
can't move up into a stand
6. Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down)
7. __?_Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors.
8. Tail wagging with joy is lost
9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about DPS.
If surgery is not an option (for whatever reason) then the best option is conservative therapy.
Do the sniff and pee test for us:
The "sniff and pee test" is the only way for humans to determine whether bladder control exists. Carry the dog outdoors, set him down on an old pee spot for a sniff. Make sure that neither the sling nor your hands are on the stomach region as this could put pressure on the bladder. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning. Until you are certain that full voiding is always occurring, continue to do a quick express check after dog pees. Tell us what you observe.
NOTE: When the bladder is full, it fills the entire area of the abdomen; therefore, any pressure can cause the bladder to release urine for dogs who do not yet have bladder control.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,561
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 29, 2024 16:16:09 GMT -7
I think you have confirmed she still has bladder control and does not need to be expressed with not finding an urine leaks in bed nor when you lift her!!!!! The pain can very likley be nerve pain. Do what you can today at ER or if necessary Sat morning to call or go yourself to get pain meds for Mama!! If this is a disc episode you will be looking for 3 pain meds promtly every 8 hrs (3x/day) For a disc episodeResolution of spinal cord inflammation/swelling provides the relief from pain. It can take an anti-inflammatory (steroid or a non-steriodal NSAID) a range of 7 to 30 days before all swelling is gone. The best pain medications control is using more than one approach to address pain from multiple fronts 1. traMADol-general analgesic 2. methocarbamol- muscle spasm pain 3. gabapentin-nerve pain). All three pain meds need to be prescribed three times a day. Adjusting meds by phone avoids a risky-to-the disc car transport. Describe the pain that you're seeing. Advocate for the three pain meds plus a stomach protector such as Pepcid AC (Famotidine) to protect against the side effects of the anti-inflammatory. There should be no sign of pain from one dose of meds to the next. Have no patience with pain as it does hinder healing. Look for your dog to be acting their normal, perky self when pain is fully under control round the clock. SIGNS OF PAIN: ⚙︎ shivering-trembling ⚙︎ yelping when picked up or moved ⚙︎ tight tense tummy ⚙︎ arched back, ears pinned bac ⚙︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ⚙︎ slow or reluctant to move in suite such as shift positions ⚙︎ not their normal perky interested in life selves ➕if a neck disc: ◻︎ head held high/ nose to the ground ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg up flamingo style not wanting to bear weight STOMACH PROTECTION Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would when taking Meloxidyl. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health issues” answer, then go to the grocery store USA to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). Can you get Pepcid AC at your local druggist or do you need an Rx? --The dose of famotidine may require reduction in patients with liver or kidney disease. - It may be prudent with heart patients to choose another class of acid reducer. Since both the stress of changes in routine and Prednisone will cause extra stomach acids, we follow the proactive vets who use Pepcid AC (famotidine) when any anti-inflammatory is in use. The usual dose during a disc episode is Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours. Give the anti-inflammatory with a meal as added protection. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html ** thumb.ibb.co/mEGRuy/91x_Aj_s00z_L_SY355.jpg |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,561
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 29, 2024 16:33:40 GMT -7
CONE for Mama. She may have nerve pain causing past and current chewing. Could be neuropathic pain or may due to something in the past going on where the root cause has not yet been found by the vet?????? We are NOT vets here. We can only suggest things to advocate on behalf of Mama. Anyway gabapentin is for nerve pain and may help til the root cause of gnawing on hind leg is found. Gabapentin is also used with a disc episode for just nerve pain in general. Everyone has experienced numbness or pins and needles tingling in your legs when sitting in a bad position for too long a time. Your dog can be feeling abnormal nerve sensations that are mild pins and needles to quite painful burning, on-fire feeling that makes them bite to stop the pain. These are abnormal signals explaining why even a paralyzed dog could feel this neuropathic pain. You would need to stay on top of observing for any more signs of chewing on body parts as this can lead to death. Immediately put a E-COLLAR/CONE on or a lengthwise folded towel and secured closed with duct tape. Get to a vet for a medicine that can help to control these very painful sensations. The name of the drug is called gabapentin. Directions + picture: forum.greytalk.com/topic/220138-create-your-own-surgical-collar/ |
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