Kara & Wahlie
New Member
MALE Cairn Terrier mix --2/8/2024 Dx Auto immune disease
Posts: 5
|
Post by Kara & Wahlie on Jan 16, 2024 20:07:20 GMT -7
[Original subject line: Wahlie]
[UPDATE: 2/8/2024 MRI: not IVDD. Likely Auto immune disease.]
☆ 1 still current pain:
x reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow, ginger movements
x shivering, trembling
x yelping when picked up or moved
x tight tense tummy
x can’t find a comfortable position, appears restless
x Arched back
x head held high
x Not their normal perky selves
★2 14.5 lbs 7 years 5 months
Prednisolone 5mg per tablet - started 1/16/2024
Gabapentin Oral Solution 0.5 mL 2-3 times a day
Methocarbamol 500 mg per tablet - 1/2 tablet every 8-12 hours
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
14.5 lbs 7 1/2 y.o.
prednisone as of 1/16: 5mgs 1x/day for 7 days, 1/23 a test taper for: _pain / _neuro
gabapentin formula 100mg/mL: 4mg (0.5mL) 3 x/day
methocarbamol 250mgs 3x/day
Wahlie needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of prednisone! ]
C.. PEPCID AC: I was not told about this from my vet and need to know more please.
☆ 3 --None - eating normal
☆ 4 Cairn Terrier Mix, Wahlie. Kara
☆ 5 diagnosis IVDD YES
🔘 -- DVM This was at an emergency vet 2x in a few days
☆ 6 date saw the vet for CONSERVATIVE treatment 1/13/24 and 1/16/24
Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/
STRICT means:
- no laps - no couches - no baths - no sleeping with you
- no dragging or meandering at potty times.
- no PT - no chiro therapy
Why Chiropractic is not recommended for pain for an IVDD dog: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/22/chiropractic/
☆ 7 specifically sniff and squat and then release urine YES
DOGs with BLADDER Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps.
Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over.
A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot.
An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on!
☆ 8 Currently can your dog wobbly walk? YES move the legs at all? YES or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk? YES
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
|
Post by PaulaM on Jan 17, 2024 7:46:59 GMT -7
Kara, welcome to the Forum. We are glad you registered and now can take advantage of getting automated email alerts (see how to below) when a post is waiting for you #1 is get that pain attended to TODAY: 1/17 am. CALL on the phone ASAP. Phone adjustments eliminate the potential of too much movement for the damaged disc during a car transport and inside the clinic. Can not yet comment on the meds until you provide the forumula for each of the liquid pain meds (gabapentin-nerve pain and methocarbamol muscle pain).
--- Make sure you are giving both meds promptly every 8 hrs (3x/day). Pain meds only last for 8 hrs. --- If you've been doing pain med dosing, then, the mgs dose may need adjusting by the vet. CALL and alert your vet to the horrific pain (you marked with an "X") --- Adovcate for a 3rd pain med: traMADol as the over all analgesic 3x/day. Neck pain evidence by dog holding head high, only using eyes to look, not wanting to turn head, is often more painful than a disc in the back. Needs all three pain meds on board. PEPCID AC Dogs do not speak up at first signs like a person would, so best to be proactive in stomach protection. 3 reasons why to use a stomach protector for the duration of Prednisone: 🚩 dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stomach-protection 2 formulas needed: Gabapentin and Methocarbamol:
-- The forumula is written on each med bottle.
-- How many mgs of the med are contained in 1mL of the liquid?
Prednisone
-- How many times a day do you dose 5mgs pred?
-- For how many days are you to give Pred 5mgs 2x/day?
ER vet visits, details needed.
-- What was the reason for the 1/13 visit?
Pain observed, ???
Why was steroid pred not Rx'd on 1/13?
-- Reason for 1/16 visit? increased pain?, adjusted meds?, ??? ➡️ EMAIL ALERTS You can receive email alerts when someone has posted. Timely interaction/communications is needed when helping your dog. Bookmark your dog's thread to receive an email alert when someone has replied.
1. Look for your dog's thread and checkmark it. 2. Look for the white ACTIONS button towards top. 3. Select “Notification Options" from the pull down menu — check mark “NEW POST” change from never to INSTANT email — press the SAVE button. Click the “x” to close the window 4. Next choose the “Bookmark” See the tiny book symbol now!
|
|
Kara & Wahlie
New Member
MALE Cairn Terrier mix --2/8/2024 Dx Auto immune disease
Posts: 5
|
Post by Kara & Wahlie on Jan 20, 2024 13:11:59 GMT -7
ER vet visits, details needed. -- 1/13 visit? started noticing pain on 1/9, let him rest a few days because i thought he just pulled a muscle. he only cried out in pain if we picked him up so we let him rest but it didn't get any better. I called his regular vet and they said to just take him to the ER Pain observed [1/13],  He yelps in pain when picked up. panting and quietly crying. on 1/13 No steroid was given due to him having thrown up 1/13 in the morning, but I think it was because he ate a couple treats too fast. Otherwise his appetite and eating were fine. Doctor said he couldnt prescribe at that time and also didn't think he needed it. -- 1/16 visit I noticed he wasn't getting any better. He was getting worse with the pain. I called the ER for more meds but they said to bring him in. I saw a different vet that morning and she seemed to really know about ivdd and helped out. thats when she prescribed him the predisolone and the methocarbamol. 1/20 update - he has been on rest for a few days now and I'm seeing improvement. He isn't crying out in pain, and we also learned how to pick him up without putting the pressure on his back. ⚠️ ⛔️ He's moving around pretty good for being injured. He will walk a few minutes and then gets wobbly in the back. He's getting braver going down our one step between our kitchen to living room and not panting and crying out. He's resting himself. We have set up the entire living room with rugs and beds just for him. He sleeps on one bed for awhile then will get up and do a lap and then go lay on a different bed. My concern is what will happen when we don't have pain meds for him anymore. |
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Jan 20, 2024 14:38:00 GMT -7
I am happy to hear that Wahlie is improving. Is his pain completely under control now?
Is Wahlie currently on Very Strict crate rest? For dogs being treated conservatively, the crate rest must by very strict. The crate should only be large enough for the dog to stand up, turn around and fully stretch out the legs when lying down. He should be in the crate all the time except for pottying and needed vet visits. He should not be walking around in the house, even if only for a few minutes. Wahlie should not be taking a step down from the kitchen to the living room. He should be carried to the potty area. It is the immobility enforced by crate rest that allows the disc to heal. Any time out of the crate is a risk for worsening symptoms. Please do not take that risk.
I am not sure if you have had a chance to look at the info found at the link below. It explains how crate rest allows the disc to heal. dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process
The pred that Wahlie was prescribed works to relieve swelling in the spinal cord. It is this swelling which causes the pain and any neuro symptoms. When the 7 days are up and the taper starts, the pain meds are usually stopped or cut back. This is so it will quickly be clear if there is still inflammation because there will be pain. If the pain meds are not stopped, it will take much longer to know if all the inflammation is gone because the meds may mask the pain, If there is still swelling, more time on the full dose of pred is needed because the pred still has work to do.
I know you are concerned about what will happen if the pain meds are stopped. Once the pred has finished its work on the spinal cord swelling, there should be no pain. Most dogs do not need pain meds long term.
All anti-inflammatories, like pred, cause excess stomach acid. This sometimes leads to serious stomach damage. A stomach protector, like Pepcid AC, will help prevent this damage. Our IVDD dogs have enough to deal with without adding stomach problems to the mix. |
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
|
Post by PaulaM on Jan 20, 2024 19:19:47 GMT -7
Kara, my greatest concern (and should be yours) is that all the gains in pain & neuro improvement could be for nothing if you are not able to deliver the single most important of care: STRICT 100% limited movement of the back day and night. ⚠️ ⛔️If his disc gets redamaged, Wahlie will suffer pain and possible permanent damage to his spinal cord. Let's keep his NEW neuro damage (wobbly walking) from worsening to unable to walk at all.
-- You will suffer guilt, knowing you could have been strict about always being inside of his recovery suite. And you will have more vet bills to pay out. --- no walking about anywhere. No doing any laps anywhere/anytime. At potty time just a very VERY few minimal footsteps once he has been carried in your arms to the potty place. --- no walking down any steps. He must be carried to and from the potty place. --- Always inside his recovery suite to eat/drink. The suite protects him from darting off if a door bells rings (way too much movement for the healing disc). The suite is always level and protection like a cast for a broken arm. The suite is protection for the damaged disc trying to heal in 8 weeks time. Please let us know you have Wahlie in the protection of a recovery suite (play pen, baby's Pak N Play, wire crate, wire 8-panel ex-pen) Which does Wahlie have? He is such a cutie. We want nothing but the best and no setbacks to his damaged disc. There are lots of tips members have used to make the weeks of STRICT rest go smoothly. Please read and see which ones will be good for Wahlie and you. dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/ |
|
Kara & Wahlie
New Member
MALE Cairn Terrier mix --2/8/2024 Dx Auto immune disease
Posts: 5
|
Post by Kara & Wahlie on Feb 4, 2024 19:10:59 GMT -7
Please do not edit this post. If there is additional info such as missing dates, give it in a new post.
Hello,
Just following up on Wahlie. I [date?] took him to his regular vet for a follow up visit. It was recommended by the ER to go after about a week. I think we went day 9 or 10 to get his follow up. When I saw this vet she took one look at him and said she thinks its a neck injury that is causing this. The ER kept pointing at his back area saying that is where he was injured so I'm confused on which it is. His regular vet also said that she would have kept him on the prednisone for longer but I had already started the weaning process so there wasn't anything I could do. She did give me more of the
✙Gabapentin and said to keep him on it until it is gone. It is 100 mg in capsule form to be given every 8 hours.
I told her I have the liquid form from the ER but it smells so nasty, I hate when I have to give it to him. The liquid form says it is 100 mg/ml and I'm supposed to give him between 0.4 to 0.8 every 8 or 12 hours. This might be a dumb question but which dosage is stronger? I've tried to figure out which is more online but keep getting confused.
As of February 4th he is out of the Methocarbamol and on
February 8th will be his last dose of 1/4 tab of Prednisolone.
He will only have the Gabapentin left. His vet told me to keep him on it for an extra week once his Prenisolone is done.
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
14.5 lbs 7 1/2 y.o.
prednisone as of 1/16: 5mgs 1x/day for 7 days, 1/23 test taper for:√2/4 stiff pain / _neuro
gabapentin formula 100mg/mL: 50mg (0.5mL) 3 x/day STOPPED
✙gabapentin capsules: 100mgs 3x/day ⚠️ extended Rx 1 wk past last pred dose
methocarbamol 250mgs 3x/day 2/4 STOPPED
Wahlie needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of prednisone! ]
Today [2/4]I noticed he seems more stiff than usual. He is in a 5x7 area in the living room that only has a few dog beds and his raised water bowl. I'm guessing this is because he is coming off the meds. I just feel so bad for him and don't want him to be in any pain. The prednisone really seemed to be helping him. I know you can't be on prednisone long, but maybe he should have been on it longer like the other vet said. How long after coming off of prednisolone can you start back on it? Or is that a big no no?
Its hard for me to figure out who to believe between his regular vet and what the ER said as far as if its back or if its his neck. Both of them pointed to different places on his body. I know I should have asked his vet what she meant but I was overwhelmed and didn't think to ask at the time.
Any advice on this is greatly appreciated!
Also am I supposed to be getting alerts when I get a message sent to me on here, because I am not and just have to randomly log in to see if there is anything.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
|
Post by PaulaM on Feb 5, 2024 11:27:20 GMT -7
Kara, getting a handle on how treatment during a disc episode whether NECK or BACK disc is key for YOU and for Wahlie being provided the utmost possibility to heal. Please d/l, print out. Tape to your refrigerator The Conservative RoadmapROADMAP Avoid dangerous detours with the Conservative Roadmap for your fridge. VIEW, DOWNLOAD and print: dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdfHere is what the RoadMap will look like taped to your fridge ** i0.wp.com/dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Roadmap-promo400.jpg--------- ACTION TO TAKE 1. If Wahle's stiffness is indeed pain, then PREDNISONE should NOT continue the taper. YOU have the answer, Pred has not yet resolved all painful swelling. Another 7-day course (5mgs 2x/day) should be Rx'd by your reg. vet. 2. If stiffness is not a sign of pain, THEN NO pain blocking meds like gabapentin, methocarbmol should be on board. The pred taper is a time to TEST to see if all pain is gone. You can not observe for pain when pain meds are on board. Do you see the sense in that? Your regular vet does not! STRICT CRATE REST Do you want to give Wahlie the best possible chance to heal his disc? Then you MUST get with the program outlined for you on Jan 20: The area of the crate is only large enough: --for ONE mattress. If necessary pad out extra space with rolled up blankets. -- only large enough area to easily turn around in -- Only large enough area to fully stretch out legs -- Water/food bowls attached at head height i2.wp.com/dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/crate-size-setup.jpgWahlie walks no where at all. --You carry him to and from the potty place. -- At potty time he may only take a minimal few footsteps to take care of business. No walking around during potty time. --- end of reply-- |
|
Kara & Wahlie
New Member
MALE Cairn Terrier mix --2/8/2024 Dx Auto immune disease
Posts: 5
|
Post by Kara & Wahlie on Feb 5, 2024 19:21:42 GMT -7
I got ahold of Wahlies vet today (2/5) and let her know that he is still showing signs of pain. Stiff legs, tight belly, looking straight on and not wanting to move too much. I asked her if he can go back on Prednisone a little longer and she said she wanted to try something else and to be able to let him rest a little longer. So here is what we are on now:
✙Rimadyl - 75 mg - 1/4 tablet every 12 hours.
Gabapentin - 100 mg - 1 capsule every 8 hours.
Robaxin - 500 mg - 1/4 tablet every 8 hours.
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
14.5 lbs 7 1/2 y.o.
prednisone as of 1/16: 5mgs 1x/day for 7 days, 1/23 test taper for:√2/4 stiff pain / _neuro last taper dose on⚠️ 2/8.
Rimadyl as of ⚠️2/5: 18.75 mgs 2x/day for ? days, then STOP TEST for pain/neuro
gabapentin capsules: 100mgs 3x/day
Robaxin (methocarbamol) 125mgs 3x/day
Wahlie needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of Rimadyl! ]
I have ordered a fence to keep wahlie even more limited in the section of the living room.
Hoping to see some results soon.
Do you still recommend the pepcid with these kinds of meds?
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
|
Post by PaulaM on Feb 5, 2024 21:35:20 GMT -7
Kara, please read column 2 on The Conservative Road Map you now have on your fridge. You did get a chance to D/l it & tape it on the fridge? If not scroll back up to my last post to get it. Steroid prednisone and NSAID Rimadyl powerhouse meds do wonders OR they can be dangerous. Vets who practice safe medicine and owners up to speed on medications make all the difference. Did you get all four questions right? **  Briefly -- ⚠️DANGER of having both pred and now Rimadyl in his body at the same time. It takes time for Steroid anti-inflammatory to leave the body before safely adding a different class of NSAID anti-inflammatory. ➡️ When both are in his body due to pain emergency, THEN two (2) GI protectors should be on board (Pepcid AC & Sucralfate). Do your homework. Prepare to advocate for Wahlie asap 2/6, read here: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stomach-protection/ -- Please get the danger rectified ASAP 1st thing tomorrow 2/6 a.m. 1) Pepcid AC from the grocery store. (0.44mgs x 14.5 lbs= about 5mg twice a day.) 2) Sucralfate Rx from vet. Read marvistavet.com/sucralfate.pml and note the order to give sucralfate with food and with Pepcid AC. 3) A medication chart is useful to see patterns, have dates and specific facts handy as you discuss things with the vet. D/l a sample and a blank form to use with Wahlie's meds dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/med-chart-printable.pdf**  Fill us in on Rimadyl: -- How many day-course is Rimadyl? 7-day? 14-day? Then a test stop for pain/neuro. -- Is pred still on board in a taper to signal the body to make its own steroid hormone again? Or was pred taper abruptly stopped? |
|
Kara & Wahlie
New Member
MALE Cairn Terrier mix --2/8/2024 Dx Auto immune disease
Posts: 5
|
Post by Kara & Wahlie on Feb 8, 2024 16:36:06 GMT -7
Hello,
Just wanted to provide an update on Wahlie. On 2/7 in the late morning he lost use of his back legs and urination. I took him to an emergency vet and they said he needed surgery immediately but that they didn't do surgery there. So we had to find a place about an hour away that would take him.
Got him admitted, they gave him fentanyl for the pain and said they would be doing an MRI and then surgery in the morning of 2/8. Got a call at 1230 that he would be going in for the MRI and then at
3 pm the neurologist called me. She said it is NOT disc disease.
While he does have some degeneration it is not the disc disease. She said his spine lit up white in the MRI. So while he was under anesthesia they did a spinal tap and are waiting for results but all signs point to autoimmune disease.
So that is why the prednisone was working for him when he was on it. They will be treating him aggressively with chemotherapy and steroids.
Do you know of any forums or websites out there that help people with dogs that have autoimmune disease? You have been so helpful throughout all of this.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
|
Post by PaulaM on Feb 9, 2024 10:50:11 GMT -7
Kara, I'm glad you got a confirmed diagnosis from the Neuro thanks to the MRI. Praying the new treatment will quickly show trending improvement.
I'm sorry but our knowledge is just of IVDD. But, when you get the detail of the exact name of the autoimmune disease, may that help you find a compatible Forum. Only the best of wishes for sweet Wahlie. We will be thinking of you both.
|
|
He yelps in pain when picked up. panting and quietly crying.
