Arnie's Jo-Dog 8/14rlapse conserv UK Terrier mix; GRAD 10/9

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Arnie & Jo-Dog
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Male - Terrier Mix

Posts: 2

Arnie's Jo-Dog 8/14rlapse conserv UK Terrier mix; GRAD 10/9 Aug 18, 2023 14:15:10 GMT -7

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Post by Arnie & Jo-Dog on Aug 18, 2023 14:15:10 GMT -7

Hi there my name is Arnie. My dog is Jo-Dog. We are in the U.K. He is a neutered male rescue 9 years old. We’ve had him 4 years.
he weighs 8kg. He is a mixed terrier breed we think. Short legs, very long body. Adorable.
He has just (yesterday) been diagnosed with his 2nd disc herniation after MRI and exam by a specialist neurologist vet. Specifically L5-L6 left lateralised intervertebral disc extrusion.

his 1st disc herniation was surgically removed in December 2022. That was L2-L3 right. It was an acute situation, he wasn’t eating or drinking and was crying even on pain meds, although he could still walk.
We knew nothing about IVDD then.

this time his pain started to be obvious Monday 7th.
We took him to our local vet on Thursday 10th august.
I did some research, found your site, and crated him on Monday 14th [August],

but after deterioration further [?] we were referred to the neurologist and saw her Thursday 17th august. He was in overnight for MRI, IV pain stabilisation and new prescription.

This time we have elected to try a conservative approach and I’m looking for an alternative vet that can off acupuncture, etc, as our local vet cannot help us.
The neuro vet would rather operate but we can’t afford it,and not sure it’s best for Jo-Dog.

She says there is a risk of incontinence due to position of nerves affected.

Any and all advice is very much appreciated. Your site has been recommended by our doggy massage lady who practices WEBB technique. We are hoping that she will be part of his treatment plan. Interested to take advice on going to her for sessions v discomfort in the car. It’s a half hour drive on rural roads and he hates the car.

meds as follows
gabapentin 100mg tabs 4x daily
paracetamol 100 mg 3x daily
Amantadine 25mg tabs once a day

prednisolone (steroid) 5mg once daily for 2 weeks then once every other day

[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
17.64lbs/ 8kg 9 y.o.
meloxicam as of 10/8 for 7 days stopped 8/16, Aug 16 vomit/diarrhea
Neuro exam 8/16. 4-day washout switch to pred
Prednisolone 8/19:5mg 2x/day for 14 days, then 9/2 taper: _pain? _ Neuro?
gabapentin 100mgs 4x/day
paracetamol 100 mgs 3x/day
amantadine25mgs 1x/day
JoDog needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of prednisolone! ]

we have a crate set up for daytime and upstairs for night time.
he’s eating fine and drank when we brought him home today.

I hope I’ve answered all the newbie questions. thanks

Last Edit: Aug 19, 2023 9:50:42 GMT -7 by PaulaM

Romy & Frankie
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Posts: 4,093

Arnie's Jo-Dog 8/14rlapse conserv UK Terrier mix; GRAD 10/9 Aug 18, 2023 15:03:42 GMT -7 PaulaM and Ann Brittain like this

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Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 18, 2023 15:03:42 GMT -7

Welcome to Dodgersist, Arnie. We are glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve learned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you! Learn more about us and how we team up with veterinarians:
dodgerslist.com/about-team-dodgerslist/

You are doing the very best thing for Jo-Dog by keeping him on Strict crate rest. It is the immobility enforced by crate rest that allows the disc to heal. Crate rest during conservative treatment must be Very Strict.

STRICT means:

- no laps
- no couches
- no baths
- no sleeping with you
- no chiro therapy
- no dragging or meandering at potty times

Carry Jo-Dog to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps.

More info on how crate rest works is at the link below:
dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/

Is Jo-Dog currently showing any signs of pain? The signs of pain we look for are; ☐shivering, trembling ☐yelping when picked up or moved ☐reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ☐tight tense tummy ☐can’t find a comfortable position ☐Arched back ☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ☐head held high or nose to the ground ☐Not their normal perky selves?

Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way between doses. If not in control, your vet needs to know right away to adjust meds. Pain will only slow the healing process.

You can find information about different types of pain meds here:

dodgerslist.com/2020/05/30/pain-medications

All anti-inflammatories, like prednisolone, cause excess stomach acid, which can cause serious stomach damage. Because of this a stomach protector, like Pepcid AC, should be used. Pepcid AC is available by prescription in the UK. Please speak to your vet about prescribing a stomach protector.

Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. We haven't really seen the WEBB technique used by our members, but in all cases the benefit of the therapy vs the risk of the transport should be weighed.

Currently, can Jo-Dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk?

Can Jo-Dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine which is bladder control – OR- do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted which are indication of an overflowing bladder and loss of bladder control?

It is very scary when our dogs have IVDD. It becomes less so when we learn all we can about the disease. Much more information can be found at our main website:

www.dodgerslist.com

PaulaM
Moderator.

Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA

Posts: 19,567

Arnie's Jo-Dog 8/14rlapse conserv UK Terrier mix; GRAD 10/9 Aug 18, 2023 16:29:05 GMT -7

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Post by PaulaM on Aug 18, 2023 16:29:05 GMT -7

Arnie, I'd like to add to the pertinent comments Romy has written above for you on how to carry out STRICT rest and assess for pain. I underscore the need for STRICT rest. Providing all the details helps us to understand the over all picture of Jo's treatment and progress when composing our comments.

WEBB
What heals the disc is STRICT limited movement at home inside the recovery suite. After watching a WEBB video, not only does it appear this therapy's movement to a dog's body but the car TRIP itself is WAY too much movement during the 8 weeks the disc is trying to healing. After graduation day on Oct 9, would be the safe time to consider other therapies you are interested in.

ACUPUNCTURE
1) Seek out a home visit acupuncture vet if there is a reason. Provide the details: the date of deterioration & the detail and where she is today. Also since the Neuro's Rx, is pain now fully in control?

Please fill us in a bit more.
1. Prednisone: what date was it started?
2. Was prednisone (a steroid anti-inflammatory drug Rx'd on 8/10 by local vet? If not, what was the name of the anti-inflammatory he Rx'd and the ?mg ?x/day or if an injection.

Answers here:
www.dodgerslist.com/2020/04/18/steroids-vs-nsaids/

https://i.postimg.cc/9MqP4ndF/healingsweling.jpg

Last Edit: Aug 18, 2023 16:32:03 GMT -7 by PaulaM

Hi there Guests❗️ REGISTERING would help us to help you and your dog best: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/7353/register-bookmark-dogs-post-thread

Arnie & Jo-Dog
New Member

Male - Terrier Mix

Posts: 2

Arnie's Jo-Dog 8/14rlapse conserv UK Terrier mix; GRAD 10/9 Aug 19, 2023 0:25:39 GMT -7 Ann Brittain likes this

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Post by Arnie & Jo-Dog on Aug 19, 2023 0:25:39 GMT -7

hi there and thanks so much for your answers, questions and support. I’m very grateful.

Previous to see the neuro vet he was prescribed meloxicam (Rheumocam)1.5 x1 daily by local vet. Liquid susp. His last dose was on 16th/8 at 7pm.
He vomited on [Aug 16] 16/8 and had a little diarrhoea on [Aug 17] 17/8 morning on arrival at the hospital for neuro exam.

On discharge, Neuro vet mentioned wash-out but also wanted to get him onto steroid.
Prescribed prednisolone (steroid) He is due to start Aug 19 today 19/8 at 7pm 5mg 1x/daily for 2 weeks then 1x every other day
Currently no signs of pain since new prescription by neuro vet.
Sometimes hard to tell if shifting position is pain, mild discomfort, or his natural self as he often shifts around a lot.
I will watch it carefully.

No wagging tail and holding away from body slightly abnormal position. Vet said tail showed weakness.
Can stand wobbly walk a few steps. Quickly sits down.
Has done poo 19/8 ok and wee ok 19/8 on his own.
No incontinence/leaking yet.

We are carrying him everywhere.
Will change WEBB appointment and discuss with her. She’s v gentle and can offer just energy healing. She’s a friend so may be happy to home visit.
On acupuncture - all alternative vets are at least 1hour drive away so looking like you advise against unnecessary transport.
I will ask for the Pepcid AC thanks so much.
Arnie x

Last Edit: Aug 19, 2023 9:13:27 GMT -7 by PaulaM

PaulaM
Moderator.

Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA

Posts: 19,567

Arnie's Jo-Dog 8/14rlapse conserv UK Terrier mix; GRAD 10/9 Aug 19, 2023 10:04:33 GMT -7

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Post by PaulaM on Aug 19, 2023 10:04:33 GMT -7

Arnie, appreciate fully disclosing all meds and the detail on neuro status. It gives quite a different picture and how we now comment.

PREDNISONE with the start of pred Aug 19 and the past issue of both signs of GI tract damage vomit and diarrhea with meloxicam, it would be VERY prudent to get on the phone today for Rxs to double protect the GI tract. Even with a 4-day washout from Meloxicam, it would not be a bad idea to have the always normal used Rx for Pepcid AC® (famotidine) on board to suppress stomach acids when any anti-inflammatory is used. But also an Rx for a 2nd protector that works in a different way called Sucralfate.. read the link so you know why you are advocating for it and the timing of it. Read "The 3 reasons why" article too: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stomach-protection/

NEURO STATUS. It appears Jo deteriorated from pain only on Aug 7th to neuro diminishment after local vet on Aug 10 appt. His disc got worse/relapsed caused by lack of crate rest not started til 8/14. Your ability to understand this disease can help you now and in the future to protect Jo and live many happy years ahead.
While I imagine it is worrisome to observe the wobbly walking diminishment, the good news is Jo has REAL potential to heal his disc and with time to self-heal the nerves to bring back a more normal gait! Right now the focus is all about healing the disc in 8 weeks. Nerve healing may or may not happen in that short of time. Nerve healing is the slowest department of the body....think in terms of months rather than day's weeks.
The key disc healing will be your knowledge to adhere to STRICT rest. Have the ability to recognize when anyone is offering well intentioned but harmful advise/services/therapies. Dr. Nancy Kay, DVM, ACVIM has hit it on the nail especially with IVDD. Each of us needs to be self educated so we can become the team captain and hire the right people to be on Jo's IVDD health care team.

"Gone are the days when you simply followed your vet's orders and asked few, if any questions. The vet is now a member of your dog's health-care team, and you get to be the team captain!" READ MORE: www.speakingforspot.com/PDF/Medical%20Advocacy%20101.pdf

MONITORING NEURO FUNCTIONS
As damage to the spinal cord increases, there can be a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions if excessive back/neck movement for example.
    As you an see, Jo has relatively mild neuro issues which makes him a good candidate for conservative treatment. Let's make sure those mild symptoms do not escalate....STRICT REST always.
1. 8/7 Pain with initial tear of disc and ensuing swelling
2. 8/10? Wobbly walking
         legs cross
3.          Nails/toes scuffing floor
4.          Paws knuckle under. Dog is slow to correct or
can't right the paw(s) at all
5.         Weak/little leg movement,
            can't move up into a stand
6.         Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down)
7.         Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors.
8.         Tail wagging with joy is lost
9.         Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. If surgery is not an option (for whatever reason) then the best option is conservative therapy.
Surgery can still be successful in the window of 12-24 hours after loss of deep pain sensation. Even after that window of time, there can still be a good outcome. Each hour that passes decreases that chance.
    Precious hours can be lost with a general vet who gets DPS wrong. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about DPS.
    A quick overview of conservative treatment vs. a surgery:
dodgerslist.com/2020/02/10/surgery-vs-conservative/

TOOLs
These tools will help you learn how conservative treatment works and know what to expect. And be able to give the essential gift of 8 weeks of STRICT rest to allow the disc to heal

1) Browse through the tried and true ways to provide Effective STRICT Rest Recovery for your dog:
==> dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/

2) Keep a medication chart to note patterns, have dates and specific facts handy as you discuss things with the vet. D/l a sample and a blank form to use with your dog's meds www.dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/med-chart-printable.pdf

3) Gain a good overview of the now of a disc episode and living many happy years ahead with your foundation on what IVDD is: www.dodgerslist.com/2020/06/26/time-and-ivdd/

Please do continue to keep us posted on how Jo is doing, any changes in pain surfacing or neuro changes.

Hi there Guests❗️ REGISTERING would help us to help you and your dog best: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/7353/register-bookmark-dogs-post-thread

Disclaimer:
This information is presented for educational purposes and as a resource for the IVD dog community. The coordinators are not veterinarians or health care professionals. Nothing herein should be interpreted as medical advice and all should contact their pet care professionals for advice. The coordinators are not responsible for the substance and content contained herein and do not advocate any particular product, item or position contained herein.

✔︎ HELP your dog FASTEST. Click link below to answer questions about your dog

Arnie's Jo-Dog 8/14rlapse conserv UK Terrier mix; GRAD 10/9

Post by Arnie & Jo-Dog on Aug 18, 2023 14:15:10 GMT -7

Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 18, 2023 15:03:42 GMT -7

Post by PaulaM on Aug 18, 2023 16:29:05 GMT -7

Post by Arnie & Jo-Dog on Aug 19, 2023 0:25:39 GMT -7

Post by PaulaM on Aug 19, 2023 10:04:33 GMT -7