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Post by Seth & Mooney on Jan 7, 2023 21:53:22 GMT -7
Mooney is a 5year old female miniature dachshund, diagnosed with IVDD 12/23/22, which rapidly progressed to grade 5. We were on a trip when this happened, and due to the holiday and schedule of the vet, surgery was performed on 12/29/22, nearly a week after the onset of paralysis. The disc was compressing L1-L2 and the surgeon said it was a simple procedure and a clean fix. Meds 2 x daily include gabapentin, clavaseptin, laktilose (laxative), Meds 1 x daily include danzen, nukleo forti, gingko biloba, vitamin E, and a probiotic. ![]() *  Considering deer velvet, there's a bit of research showing benefits but not sure yet. Will wait until med cycle is complete to implement. [MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
danzen (anti-inflammatory-like serrapeptse enzyme)
gabapentin ?mgs 2x/day
clavasetin (amoxicillin) ?mgs 2x/day
Laktilose ?mgs 2x/day] She stayed in the hospital for seven days following surgery. Doctor said DPS was slowly returning, although I have observed that one foot seems to have more sensation than the other, and she does not put her either paws right side up at all. When I picked her up from the hospital, her tail wagged vigorously, and every time a visitor has come to see her, the tail wags. She is on strict bed rest and crated. Now that she is home, she is eating and drinking well and having normal bowel movements. I am expressing bladder but she seems to be able to control when she poops. We are doing 5-10 minutes of massage and bicycle exercises 3x a day. While she is not able to stand up on her own, once she is placed in a standing position, she is able to hold the position on her own for up to a minute. You can see that her little core is stabilizing and working to hold herself up. She begins acupuncture this weekend, approximately 10 days after surgery, and will have her sutures out 2 weeks post op. Because the vet was in Mexico, there has been some difficulty in communication and we are not able to return for follow up visits. We are in the process of finding a vet/neurologist in the US as well as PT once we are 4 weeks post op. I'm using light therapy with a home device, that at the least is doing no harm, at best is helping the wound heal. Will pursue laser therapy at a rehab soon. Also applying low frequency TENS machine for a few minutes a day, based on available research, and the vet in Mexico also said they do for the dogs that are able to come back for therapy which we are not. In the meantime, it's so nice to have her home and she seems very comfortable. Hoping for a good outcome with lots of patience and working towards a full recovery.  |
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Post by Ann Brittain on Jan 8, 2023 7:38:25 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. I'm sorry to learn that Mooney has had an IVDD episode and had to have surgery. Finding a veterinary neurologist or a vet trained to treat IVDD dogs is your first step. He/she will be able to review the medications and supplements you're giving Mooney. Adjustments may be needed and you should discuss adding Pepsid AC (Famotidine) to prevent stomach upset from the medications. Here is a link with info on Pepsid.
It's also important to make sure strict crate rest is followed during the recovery period recommended by your vet. Strict crate rest means no lap sitting, sleeping in bed with you, limited time outside to pee and poop, climbing stairs, or playing with other pets in the household.
Here is a link to setting up a recovery suite.
It's good that you're able to express Mooney's bladder. Do you find any leakage in her bed? If you do, it may mean that her bladder isn't being emptied fully. Failure to express all her urine can cause urinary tract infections. Check with your vet if her urine is dark, or smells strong (indications of UTI). The vet may be able to help you learn how to be sure her bladder is empty. Read the article in the link below for more info and instructions on expressing.
After our Buster had surgery, someone recommended deer velvet. I did some research but, due to side effects, did not give it to our dog. Others here may have used it and will comment on whether Dodgerslist can recommend its usage.
Keep us posted on Mooney's progress and what you learn from her vet.
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Post by Seth & Mooney on Jan 26, 2023 3:33:01 GMT -7
Hi, I wanted to give an update on Mooney who is 4 weeks post op today. She is doing well, no pain and seemingly in good spirits. Bowels are self controlled and healthy. Because the vet who did the surgery is in Mexico and seeing a neurologist here will cost several hundred dollars for a consult, we are getting by with info online and lots of careful observation and home therapy.
The good news is that she is beginning to “walk”. This involves standing in her crate and ambulating a few steps at a time. However, I am only now beginning to understand the difference between motor reflexes and and actual feeling in her feet.. I was/am hoping for a full recovery to “normal”, and was very glad to see her kicking when I massage her feet. However I now am wondering if she has deep pain sensation or this is the beginning of spinal walking. She doesn’t right her paws really or turn her head when I pinch a toe (however she does pull the leg). Any thoughts on this? I’m aware that only a neurologist can determine this but because I spent so much on the surgery and I’m having to be very careful financially. and besides, while it would put my mind at ease, I’m not sure how much of a difference seeing a new neurologist is going to make in her recovery, as there’s not much to “do” besides therapy and time.
If the walking she’s doing is spinal walking, I’m wondering how refined this will get, and does it ever transition back to some semblance of normal waking? Mooney was deep pain negative for nearly a week so that is something to take into consideration.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 26, 2023 11:17:57 GMT -7
Seth, since 4 mos have passed, guess we need some updating on a few points to understand things. 🚩 For how many weeks did the Mexican neuro want for post op rest to heal all of the surgical sites? 🚩 what is the rest of the sentence? "Mooney was deep pain negative for nearly a week..... nearly a week before surgery in Mexico OR nearly a week after surgery? Spinal walking. Some dogs can learn it. Only dogs without Deep pain sensation might be able to learn. It looks different that a dog who walks with brain direction. Learn more here: dodgerslist.com/2021/09/27/spinal-walking/After surgery, at home were you doing passive PT such as bicycles, etc in video below? Appropriate physical therapy can help maintain those muscles with lost nerve connectionand keep the joints flexible while nerve cells regenerate. Post-op PT for the paralyzed IVDD dog:
A dog who is regaining neuro functions, often will not like you doing the passive range of motion, etc, because they can do it for themselves. Do you still do post-op PT currently? How does Mooney react to your doing it?Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord:
CAN MOONEY DO A HAPPY TAIL WAG?1. Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for more nerves to be able to self heal after surgery Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly identify neuro function. Most general vets do not correctly ID with that pinch the toe test! Likely you will not either.2. __Tail wagging with joy SPECIFICALLY at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. Everyone can get this neuro function correctly identified!3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test.4. __Weak Leg Movement such as to reposition in the suite or attempt to scratch an ear __ ability to move up into a standing position, and then __ wobbly walking.5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and __ properly place the paw without it knuckling under6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. LEARN MORE: dodgerslist.com/2021/02/06/nerve-healing-after-disc-episode/Knuckling: thumb.ibb.co/k3dqRS/Knuckling.jpg
When we know Mooney has graduated from post op rest to heal the surgical sites ( often at 4 weeks, but some vet do want 6 weeks depending on the dog'scase) THEN we will be able to share lots of tips to transition Mooney back into family life and physical activity. |
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Post by Seth & Mooney on Jan 26, 2023 13:41:43 GMT -7
Hi Paula, thank you for the reply. I want to clarify that it has been 4 weeks, not months, since mooneys surgery. She was deep pain negative for a week before surgery. [general DVM or surgeon?] They had alluded that some deep pain sensation was returning in the week after surgery but there was a bit of translation uncertainty. The doctor had suggested an in person follow up four weeks post op but since we are not able to return to Mexico and there are some financial constraints I am utilizing web resources. The good thing is that she has done very well post op and is her normal self minus walking.
My basic inquiry is whether I should expect spinal walking forever or if spinal walking leads to more coordinated ambulation. I am also a bit confused as to where the return of deep of pain sensation lands in the recovery process. Mooney has full use of her tail and wags very happily and has full bowel control [evidence observation?]. So does this mean that deep pain has returned? And does anyone know if superficial pain precedes deep pain? For instance, if I lightly poke her paw, she retracts it.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jan 26, 2023 14:16:54 GMT -7
A dog that can do a happy tail wag and has full bowel control has DPS. When I was first learning about DPS I was told it was like electricity. The spinal cord is like an electric cord made up of a number of wires to carry electrical current. In the spinal cord the nerve wiring system is in groups depending on their function. The nerves on the outer edges of the cord run from the brain to the legs to send messages about the position of the leg in space. These are the first to be affected when a disc pressures the spinal cord. We observe this pressure as the dog wobbly walking and knuckling their paws. The nerve wiring system deeper in the spinal cord functions to send messages from the brain to move the legs. We observe this degree of nerve damage as leg weakness which can progress to complete leg paralysis. In the center of the spinal cord, is the wiring system responsible for bladder control and at the very center of the cord is the the final function that carries the ability to sense pain in the limbs and send that message to the brain. If the dog cannot sense pain in the leg the inner part of the spinal cord is damaged and that means no DPS.
DPS is an indicator that the brain can communicate through the spinal cord to the rest of the body. When a dog can stand by himself or wag his tail in response to treats there is no doubt that the dog has DPS. At this point DPS is a given.
This is very good news since DPS is an indicator (only an indicator) of the return of other neuro functions. Once other neuro functions, less deep in the spinal cord are regained we know the very deepest function, DPS is there.
I am not sure if my above explanation was clear about this. Only dogs without DPS spinal walk.
Mooney is only 4 weeks post-surgery. A lot of healing can still take place.
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Post by Seth & Mooney on Jan 28, 2023 13:55:02 GMT -7
Thank you for the responses. In that case, I will assume that Mooney has DPS and she is on her way to a full recovery! She is able to take several steps at this point, which feels like nothing less than a miracle. I messaged the vet in Mexico with a video, and she said that Mooney is doing very well and can now begin a physical therapy routine. Shall we assume she has graduated?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jan 28, 2023 14:09:35 GMT -7
Very good news that Mooney is now able to take steps. It seems that the vet from Mexico has taken her off post-op crate rest. Many surgeons do this 4 weeks after surgery. You can email the surgeon to be certain. What helped my dog the most after surgery was aqua therapy, where he walked on an underwater treadmill. I don't think he would have recovered nearly as quickly without it. If they have this type of therapy near you, consider it. There are also water exercises you can do in the bathtub. More info is here: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/28/surgery-dog-water-therapyWhile you are emailing the surgeon, you can ask about aqua therapy. |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 28, 2023 20:23:42 GMT -7
Seth, hope you have underwater treadmill in your area. This type of therapy will help to expedite coordinating muscles/nerves in learning to walk again. At home you will want to being a slow transition back to family life and physical activith at home over the course of a couple of months. GRADUATION, A SLOW RE-INTRODUCTION Determine how you are going to ease back into more normal activity at graduation from rest. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Not free rein of the house and yard immediately! LOL Your dog's muslces are soft and out of shape after the rest period. Gradually build up her muscles and lungs. Take a look at our information. Gradually building your dogs muscles over a month's time will have your dog safely running and having fun again! SAMPLE SCHEDULE Here is a sample schedule to safely and slowly introduce your dog back to family life and physical activity: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly/?highlight=sample%20scheduleDIY back PROTECTION around the house  ** 1) Good ideas in making your home back friendly: dodgerslist.com/2020/07/09/home-protect-ivdd-backs/2) Ideas and products to provide improved traction for wobbly dogs on slick floors: dodgerslist.com/2022/10/08/traction-solution-improvements/3) Teach yout dog to be safe and not jumping up or down, but to use a ramp whether over steps leading outdoors or to furniture in the house. Dogs are best at visual learning rather than verbal commands. Dog trainer Anna Jane Grossman says “Dogs learn in pictures. Inside your dog’s brain is a very simple algorithm – pleasant images in one place and unpleasant images in another."
HAPPY DAYS AHEAD for you guys! 1) Lots more ideas and tips in living with an IVDD dog. Things like dentals, harnesses, ways to have fun and more: dodgerslist.com/living-with-ivdd-tips-2 PT THERAPY AT CLINIC or HOME Safety first. You should always consult with a veterinarian before starting any exercise program with your dog. Let us know what your Mexican surgeon thinks. -- Review of Water therapy at home and Underwater treadmill at a clinic: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/28/surgery-dog-water-therapyDo you have other dogs in your home? Have some information to share if you do. |
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Post by Seth & Mooney on Feb 20, 2023 10:49:49 GMT -7
Hello,
I wanted to give an update on Mooney- she is doing incredibly well! We are now 8 weeks post op and she is ambulatory, slowly getting back to her normal gait. I’ve read here that healing continues for six months, so we’re very looking forward to another four months of progress and more.
For anyone reading this, have hope! I truly thought she would be paralyzed forever, considering she was stage 5 for over a week….
I’m wondering what can be done to prevent future episodes. I’m aware of no jumping, being picked up properly etc… does anyone have advice on continuing cold laser and acupuncture as a preventative measure? Or supplements, vitamin e maybe?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 20, 2023 12:56:18 GMT -7
Seth, wonderful news to hear Mooney is now walking and working on getting back to a normal gait. For some dogs the nerve healing process has continued a year out. With Money's progress todate, she may not take that much time. Where you able to pursue underwater treadmill therapy? It is a type of therapy than can expedite the body's learning the art of walking and perfecting the gait. --- Also, if you live near a beach or pond, these things can give Mooney help: • walk in the sand • walk along the waterline from knee deep (easier) to ankle deep (more muscle workout) --- Outdoors on leash/harness and if needed a sling. Walk across a gentle slope, walk up and down the slope. Walk on different textures...low grass, higher grass, on sand. --- Use sticks, broom, pvc pipes spaced out on good traction carpet. Dog then will learn to lift paws as they walk SLOWLY over each one. --- Single leg balance for the weaker leg. While standing, lift the stronger leg off the ground for a few seconds-this will force bearing weight on the weaker leg. Lower and repeat with the opposite side leg. Mooney is a breed known to be prone to IVDD. Often owners/vets do not know this until the first signs of pain. With the surgery, you now know she was born with the progressive early aging of the discs disease. There is no preventative for another disc aging early no longer being able to act as a cushion for the vertebrae. The best any of us can do is to keep our furry friends trim and sleek to avoid extra pressure on the back. Make it so they no longer jump up or jump down from things. All of life depends on the fuel we take in (eat). So feed the best you can which fits your budget. Diet and Nutrition: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/22/diet-nutrition/ Home safety for IVDD dog: dodgerslist.com/2020/07/09/home-protect-ivdd-backs/ Key to protecting Mooney is understanding the disease she has: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/26/time-and-ivdd/ Supplements, devices, etc: dodgerslist.com/2020/02/24/devices-supplements/Laser and/or acupuncture can be used during a disc episode. These are not preventative disc episode therapies. Thank you for the update on Mooney!! |
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