Joanne's Kelly 11/30 conservative -G. Retriever; GRAD 1/25

Thank you so much for the helpful information. I really appreciate it! This website is so incredibly useful and I'm so grateful. I forgot to say Kelly is 53 lb.

Update is that he walking with all his legs now, pretty steady.

[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
53 lbs 13 y.o.
11/30 both hind legs limp
12/2 all legs steady gait
prednisone as of 11/30 10 mgs tabs: 15mgs 2x/day for 7 days, then 12/7 test taper for: _pain / _neuro
gabapentin 300mgs how often actually given?
Kelly needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of Prednisone! ]

We have Him confined to his gated bed area but now he can get up and readjust positions on his own.

He is also peeing and pooping on his own. We carry him out and only let him take a few steps. Eating and drinking very well too. He seems to have made such a turnaround that I almost wondered. Does he really have this disc disease. However, I know them medications can Make him feel so much better that it might just seem that he's okay.

Thank you so much again for your time and all this information which is so incredibly helpful to us! I've reached out to the vet to ask about starting the pepcid. I am cooking food for him, ground turkey, brussel sprouts, canned pumpkin, and a dehydrated vegetable mix for dogs called Dr. Harvey's a Paradigm. I'm glad to hear your opinion about why he is responding so well, that it's likely the prednisone because at times I wonder if the diagnosis could be incorrect. But I suppose that since when the doctor pressed on his spine and it hurt that makes it more definitive.

[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
53 lbs 13 y.o.
home cooked
11/30 both hind legs limp
12/2 all legs steady gait
prednisone as of 11/30 10 mgs tabs: 15mgs 2x/day for 7 days, then 12/7 test taper for: _pain / _neuro
gabapentin 300mgs ▲3x/day]

Yes, he is in a confined area, at first we had only his bed and now there's a small space for him to stand next to [the bed] it just in case he wants to lay on a flatter surface. His bed is large enough for him to spread out and memory foam.

When I carry him outside to pee we have him on a leash and harness so that he can only walk a few feet which encourages him to quickly decide where to go. My husband questioned whether we should be caring him in and out of the house because could it put more stress on the spine doing so than having him walk but I said no according to the website no walking. I am trying to decide which type lift device might be helpful to purchase from the site recommended.

Although he doesn't need one right now,( or maybe he does?) I wonder if it could be helpful or good to have on hand for if needed in the future. Currently he's standing and putting full weight on his back legs when doing his business. When we carry him I put one arm between his front legs and one under his hind legs and put him down very carefully. I'm glad you stressed giving the ▲gabapentin every 8 hours because on the bottle it says 8 to 12 hours and last night it went up to 12 hours and then he was showing some signs of pain by not drinking water. Within a short period of time the pain med kicked in, So now I'll just keep it at 8 hours. His 12-hour dose of prednisone is at 1:00. So I set my alarm in the night to wake up at 1am and give it to him with food. Many thanks again for your advice!

Reluctance to drink water is not a common sign of pain. It is sometimes a sign of nausea which may indicate prednisone damage is beginning. I am glad that you will be starting the Omeprazole right away to lower the chances of any stomach damage. If Kelly did not start drinking again, let the vet know as soon as you can.

Joanne, stopping the pain the day the pred taper starts accelerates understanding if all painful swelling is actually gone.  

    Keeping a pain med on board while trying to figure out if all inflammation is gone, would hide existing painful inflammation from view.  So it all depends on how fast one wants to know if pain would show, then pred would need to be back up on the original pred dose. OR if it is ok to go to the conclusion of the pred taper because no pain was observed.
   
Sounds like you and your vet have a good Plan B should you at some point find out there is still some pain inflammation/swelling pred  needs to work on.

We've got our fingers crossed, the pred taper and stopping pain med at some point will show there is no more work for the anti-inflammatory prednisone to do. 

Each time the vertebrae in the spine move move when footsteps are taken, the early healing disc gets pressured. Weak disc scar tissue can be disrupted.  It is you who will have to figure out if you are able to safely support his spine in a horizontal to the floor position as you carry him.  Your carrying him eliminates the way too many footsteps getting to the potty place.
    Options if you do not feel safe in carrying Kelly are:
  --- set up a pee pad adjacent to the recovery suite. That way Kelly takes just a few bare minimal footsteps to the pee pad. You can retrain him to know it is ok to pee in the house.  Put a urine stained  piece of paper towel on the pee pad.  Command "Go Potty" when he sniffs. Praise when he pees. So he will learn pee pads are OK to potty on.

--- Situate the recovery suite near the sliding door.  Then he needs only to take a few footsteps to the deck with aid of harness. Put snow, hay, dirt, astro turf on the deck as the potty place. Spritz with white vinegar to kill the bacteria in the urine so it doesn't get stinky over time.

--- If you have ordered the front/rear harness with sling, maybe that could be a safe option??

For small dogs safe way to carry and IVDD dog: LIFT and CARRY to support both ends. Keep back horizontal to the ground.

Bigger IVDD dogs:
Bend your knees! Place one arm around the front of their chest (under the neck) and one arm around their back legs underneath the rump. Lift up with your legs.



Picture below shows a pottytime sequence on a deck.  
Dog being carried out to the deck. Potty place is fenced in with ex-pen panels as a physical and visual to no sniff festing.  Then only a sling was needed for the rear leg wobbly dog to sniff in a small potty place area.
**     

White vinegar in a spray bottle to disinfect and remove the urine ammonia smell from floors, etc.  Be careful outdoors where you spray. Vinegar can kill plants and grass.  Under a deck there is usually no vegetation, just dirt.

Let us know what potty method you think is best for Kelly and you.

Joanne, I'm sorry to hear accurate results of the prednisone taper were delayed by keeping pain masking gabapentin on board.  Next pred taper maybe will be one to get quick and accurate results by stopping pain meds on the same day the pred taper starts.

PERSPECTIVE
Remember reading (?), it may take 7- 30 days before prednisone can get all the inflammation around the cord resolved. (taper days do not count as they are too low in mgs.)  
    So far Kelly has had an 8-day course of pred.  No one knows how long it takes for pred to fully resolve painful swelling. All vets must guess.  An 8-day course is a good guess.  Now the vet and you know Kelly needs another course of pred and then another taper to see if all inflammations really gone.  If pain meds were to remain on board the day the next taper starts, you don't have a very good chance to accurately and quickly observe things.

His change in personality with the taper of pred and the diminishing of gabapentin finally has shown that Kelly is likely suffering with now surfacing pain that he didn't even enjoy an ear scratch.  The pain had been there, you just did not know it existed because it was covered up by gabapentin.

Please keep us posted on his new medication Rx's. And importantly is pain back in control round the clock?  Quick action to get pred back on board at the original dose can prevent severe nerve damage and turn things around quickly.  If too many hrs pass, the nerves damaged can take some time to self-repair.

Joanne, kudos to you for quickly pursuing getting Kelly back up on the anti-inflammatory level of prednisone again.
You witnessed same thing I've witnessed with my own dogs. Pred when administered ASAP (hrs matter) can quickly turn neuro diminishment around.  Waiting too long a time before pred, then it may take a much longer time for the body to self-repair damaged neuro function.

FYI:
    To increase the pred dose would move the treatment to an immune suppressive treatment for autoimmune diseases are where the immune system attacks healthy cells in the body by mistake. 
    To give a lower pred dose act as a replacement steroid dose for dogs who can't make their own steroid hormone (cortisol). 

Kelly is on the anti-inflammatory dose of prednisone that is used for a disc episode.   So your vet is using another prudent 7-day course of "anti-inflammatory" level of pred to see if that gets the inflammation resolved.  
    The taper days are a must to signal the body to resume production of its own steroid hormone (cortisol) again. However this taper period is a perfect window to verify if Pred has done its job for the disc episode.  
    Fingers crossed that a total of 14 anti-inflammatory level days of prednisone will get all swelling resolved. The taper will tell the answer whether another pred course is needed or not.  On this Forum there have been but few dogs that needed 30 days of anti-inflammatory pred.
 
MED LIST UPDATE?
Whenever there is reported change in meds, please update the med list details for us:
   What is the dose in mgs of prednisone 2x/day started on 12/13 for 7 days?
    Is omeprazole 20mgs 2x/day still on board?
    Gabapentin:  how many mgs dose and how often given?  

Keep up the good work with your attention to caring for him. Your will and keeping hope are things Kelly can pick up on.  You know he can smell your emotions?

    Remember to put a big smile on your face and in your voice and carry it in your heart while Kelly is recovering! Dogs CAN smell when you are happy, sad or scared because each emotion has a subtle change in your scent. Many times their behavior reflects our mood and they may even misinterpret sadness and believe they have done something wrong. Everyone heals better in a positive energy environment. SO, "put on a happy face!!" It will help you and your sweet Kelly!!

Thank you Ann and Paula. I appreciate the heads up On not recommending a chiropractic adjustment of any sort since the disc is involved. And also I appreciate being cautious about any herbal meds while he is on conventional meds. I was wondering about that myself.

I think acupuncture might be really helpful and I'm hoping that the doctor will want to do that instead of an adjustment.

I've been using the laser in the meantime and I can't tell if it's helping or not but hope that it is. I've done 9 minutes three times a day over the weekend, but then I have to return it tomorrow morning. So I'm wondering if maybe I should purchase a laser?

And just after I wrote this below. Kelly heard me putting leftovers away from dinner and stood up on both legs so I guess the paralysis comes and goes it seems. He's licking the mashed potato bowl as we speak
-------------------------

Thank you, Paula. Tonight Kelly's hind legs have gone limp again. I'm concerned because we haven't even started weaning the prednisone yet. That is supposed to start tomorrow. The holistic veterinarian is coming at 1:00. I'm concerned about whether Kelly could be in pain even though he's still getting the gabapentin every 8 hours. His legs were trembling a little bit earlier. He's still eating, drinking. He urinated last at 1:00 p.m. and couldn't go when we took him out. We tried to express but couldn't. Maybe when his bladder gets full enough we can do so tomorrow. I'm more concerned than ever.

A better old guy but I'm grateful we'll get another opinion tomorrow.  should read "I'm more concerned than ever about our old guy" instead of " a better old guy".

In the meantime, with the holiday coming, I plan to call the vet tomorrow to get more pain medication. In case it gets worse over the weekend. I wonder if I should ask for something in addition to the gabapentin in case we need it. Prayers please.

If Kelly can stand on his own, then bladder control very likely should be back or returning. Do you let him first sniff and then see if he can release urine on an old pee spot. Then do an express check to see if the bladder is empty.

Joanne,  kudos to you for getting the very likely Robaxin® (Methocarbamol) on board as well as another course of prednisone.
    As usual be sure to know each of Kelly's meds at the Mar Vista Vet Drug Directory
   Methocarbamol: marvistavet.com/methocarbamol.pml

NEURO FUNCTION
Can the hind legs move at all?  
Makes an attempt to use rear limbs to reposition in his suite?   OR
do you observe there is no purposeful movement at all? Leg movement at potty time often is not purposeful but a reflex.

OBSERVING for NEURO FUNCTIONS
As damage to the spinal cord increases, there can be a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions if excessive back/neck movement for example. Healing of nerve functions returns in the reverse order of loss.   What functions does he still have?  Which functions has he lost?

Chinese Herb
What is the name of this herb?

Prednisone
For how many days is this new 12/21 course of prednisone?
Is the dose in mgs and the frequency the same (15mgs 2x/day)?

Muscle relaxer
What is the name of the muscle relaxer?
If given, what is the  range of mgs or times per day you could give?
How many time a day are you actually going to give?

Another new bit of info to add to the above update is that I spoke with the vet today and she thinks part of why he's so lethargic is because he may be over medicated between the new muscle relaxant and the gabapentin and the Chinese herbs.

So she suggested stopping the muscle relaxant and to see how he does and maybe coming back on the gabapentin a bit.

I also reached out to our holistic vet to get his opinion and he thinks it might mean that he doesn't have IVDD and maybe instead has a spinal tumor but we really don't know. Both of the veterinarians feel that it's time to let him go, so we are planning ahead for early next week after the holiday in case we need to do so. In the meantime, we'll see how he does and give him every chance possible.