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Post by Diane & Brooke on Nov 27, 2022 20:52:06 GMT -7
[Original subject line: Brooke intro] Surgery: 11/22 specialty vet neurosurgeon Slipped disc, no use of back legs Breed: 45 lb English Springer SpanielAge: 6 years oldMeds: Initially needed entyce appetite helper Pregabalin 75mg 1/2 tablet every 12 hr Carprofen 1/2 tablet every 12 hr Methocarbamol 500 mg 3 x per day Peeing on her own. Has pooped once since at home Doing PT exercises at home. Follow up in 2 weeks  Challenges: Administering meds: what hasnt worked (which usually does) hiding in hotdog, cheese, peanut butter, chicken. She is ornery with manual pill giving so have resorted to opening capsules and grinding other pills and adding water or chick broth to mouth syringe(suggested by ER discharge tech as a back up). Still a process and sometimes still a bite risk and whipping her head around and maybe no getting 100% of the med material. Still no use of her back legs. We are using the provided sling to get her outside. Takes 2 of us due to one step down to driveway from side porch.
We have 3 other dogs so it was tricky in the beginning getting her in and out of the current crate. Ordered a new one with front, side and top doors, coming this week. Using xpen during the day and do not leave her alone. Other dogs learned to mind the pen and leave her alone. She is the alpha. At night we sleep in separate bedrooms till the new crate comes. Hubby was sick for the last 7 days so we were already split up. Lol. Not covid. In the bedroom she is on a soft dog bed. I have slept on the floor next to her for a few hrs when she seemed unsettled. If Im on the bed, I sleep the opposite way to be able to keep an eye on her. She does not try to move, just adjust here and there, and sometimes pants. We give her water every couple hours. She cant get up to get water even if close by and dont want it to spill. When I do the pt exercises 3 x per day, I wipe her body down with hypoallergenic baby wipes because its usually after we come in from pottying. She has 16 staples in her back which will come out @ Dec 6. I have a surgical onesie on her from our English setter who just had a cancerous tumor removed on Nov 3. We were told surgery has an 80% chance of her getting back to normal. Without surgery 50%. After surgery the Dr. said the hard part is waiting to see what happens at the cellular level. We were told 6 weeks of limited movement- crate, xpen. I guess I didnt ask, and it all happened so quickly. I really thought she would be able to walk immediately. I didnt think about how things work in the body, etc. I am a strong girl luckily, but the sling is a workout for Brooke and for me and hubby.I hope to see signs of life (and I think I did tonight) in her legs. I do the exercises and massaging. Tonight, I did a light touching on her feathers around her toes, like tickling, and I saw her toes move and her leg try to pull away ever so slightly, but only saw that on one leg. The pain test- pinching didnt result in any reaction. |
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 28, 2022 11:32:04 GMT -7
Welcome! My name is Paula, what's yours? We are a small friendly group just going by first names. The meds can be VERY bitter in taste. Avoid mashing them up. Now that Brooke knows they taste very bad, you will need to slowly retrain her to take her meds. It might take giving her thru the day fake med balls for a couple of days to retrain and regain trust. Use only the tiniest of the treat (to avoid too many calories). Each time she takes one of your fake tiny "med" ball, praise her. Now at actual med dosing time use the 3 TREAT PILL method for each of the 3 different meds. If splitting pills, be sure to carefully wash your hands so no bitter pill dust gets transferred to the exterior of the pill treats. 1 Put a pill into the well of a small mashed banana ball, a cream cheese ball, liverwurst ball, Gerber Lil' meat sticks, or inside of a sticky small marshmallow and sealed completely so no taste is on the exterior. 2. Prepare 2 treats with no meds inside.
3. Give plain treat #1 while holding the real med ball in front of her eyes. The idea is your Brooke will be greedy after the first treat to get the 2nd. Immediately hold the 3rd plain treat so she will hurry to swallow the med ball to get to treat #3. WATER BOWL Can you attach to side of recovery suite (ex-pen, wire crate) so she can access whenever she needs a drink? She can still use her front legs, correct to move somewhat, reposition in her suite? Attach the bowl holder at head height (cottage cheese container, plastic container from deli section of grocery store) to the side of the recovery suite. Nest another container or other bowl for the water/food. LARGE BREED CARE TIPs As the neuro pointed out it is up to the body ability to heal nerves. Better to think in terms of months rather than days/weeks for this slowest part of the body to heal. In the meantime you need to protect your own backs when helping a 45lbs dog for potty time, maintaining the bedding, etc. A good sling can help your own back and securely help Brooke. Check out the "help 'em up Harness idea if it would be better than whatever sling they sent you home with. Lots of other tips on this page to help with home care: dodgerslist.com/2022/02/10/large-dog-care-tips-ivdd/Ex-pen flexibility
RAMP Can you set up a ramp over the one step to make things easier for you getting her outside to potty? There are commercial ramps and DIY ones. Here is a discussion on various ideas: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/867/ramps?page=1While Brooke is healing, it would be best to contain the other dogs away from her when Brooke is out of her suite for potty time to avoid distractions. She probably feels very vulnerable, so protect her emotional safety even if she is the alpha. PINCH TEST Many DVM vets are not able to correctly identify deep pain sensation (DPS) with the pinch test. You likely do not know how the test works nor how to ID the correct signs. Here is reason you need not do this irritating test. #1 The pinch test is to find out if DPS exists. You know it does because she has bladder control. So by definition she couldn't control her bladder if there were no DPS. Having DPS bodes well for more nerve function to self repair with time. The next neuro function to return after bladder control will be leg function. 1. Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly idenfiy neuro function. 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. __ Weak Back Leg Movement such as to reposition in the suite __ ability to move up into a stand position with back legs, __ and then wobbly walking. 5. __ Being able to walk with more steadiness and __ properly place the paw, no longer knuckling it under. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. LEARN MORE: dodgerslist.com/2021/02/06/nerve-healing-after-disc-episode/Knuckling: thumb.ibb.co/k3dqRS/Knuckling.jpgKeep up with the good principals PT including tickling the paws, massaging paws. These can elicit reflexes to withdraw or push out. Either way they make the muscle fire keeping them active til the brain can again send signals to the limbs. Appropriate physical therapy can help maintain those muscles with lost nerve connection and keep the joints flexible while nerve cells regenerate.
Post-op PT for the paralyzed IVDD dog: Please keep in touch. How's pilling going, etc. Any other things you wonder about? |
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Post by Diane & Brooke on Dec 2, 2022 19:17:03 GMT -7
This was very helpful info. We used cream cheese for meds and no longer an issue! A miracle. We are using xpen during the day, new 3 door crate at night and if we go out. We are keeping all 4 dogs in the right proximity of each other so that is going well.
Hubby may build a ramp soon for the one step but we are better at picking her up now than in the beginning.
Home pt is going ok. Hard to get in more than 2x a day with working (from home) but spending more time during the 2x with lots of massaging and doing some weight bearing/squats when we take her out to potty.
Trying to have faith in the process.. we have seen tail wags, leg moved away from toe tickling. I will look into a better harness and read large dog breed tips!
Thank you!
Diane
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 3, 2022 11:15:02 GMT -7
Diane, what a relief to hear Brooke is now easy to give meds to!! How to distinguish between reflex action or brain directed muscle movement. For us humans to be able to distinguish between reflex and brain directed, we have to see some sort of head level involvement with the tail, with a limb or with release of urine so we know the movement was done with purposeful thinking. Examples: --- Sniff (head level nose) on an old pee spot, then release of urine would be brain directed. --- Hear (head level ear) you doing some happy talk and then tail wags is brain directed. Tail or leg movement during potty time can often be a reflex --- Itchy sensation at neck and then tries to scratch would be purposeful movement. Tickling paws, etc can cause reflex leg movements of pushing in or out. It is still quite early in the nerve healing department since the 11/22 surgery. Best to think in terms of months rather than be searching every day for some sign of self-healing nerve function. Ortho surgeon Andy Torrington BVMS CertSAO MRCVS explains why the need for patience with nerve healing: Diane, stay strong, stay positive. Brooke will be getting back to enjoying family life on graduation day 1/3/23. It may be he'll need a bit more time for nerve healing with the assist of a wheelchair or.... who knows he may be showing signs of limb nerve repair and with the aid of underwater treadmill therapy it can expedite relearning how to walk. No matter which, Brooke inherently knows to get on with the business of living and loving life. Dogs know to take life a moment at a time and enjoy it for all it has to offer. Remember to put a big smile on your face and in your voice and carry it in your heart while your Brooke is recovering! Dogs CAN smell when you are happy, sad or scared because each emotion has a subtle change in your scent. Many times their behavior reflects our mood and they may even misinterpret our sadness and tears and believe they have done something wrong. Everyone heals better in a positive energy environment. So always put on a happy face when around Brooke!! It will help you and him!! Look forward to future reports of limb/tail movement along with the criteria of which head level involvement you observed. |
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Post by Diane & Brooke on Dec 19, 2022 19:41:32 GMT -7
Brooke had her first follow up appt with the Dr. last week. 16 staples removed. (They seemed so huge after surgery, but seemed so small today) Dr had her walk without the sling, I was shocked and afraid- we've been so careful! Her left leg was weaker which they said made sense since the left side of the disc was worse. She was walking wobbly and humpy at first but better every day!!! Dr. told us we no longer need to use the sling and she is ahead of schedule. Hoorayy!! We still have the sling loosely on because hubby wasnt using it and diarrhea and at that time wasnt strong enough to hover so off to the shower we went(yes she was cleared for showers  . Today [12/19]she seemed to be able to squat to pee without laying in the grass. And was able to go up and down the one step outside. No longer doing pt as 4, 10 min walks a day is the new pt. On the leash at all times. Still crating at night an xpenned during the day. Eating fine, off all meds except for anti diarrhea pill. Still chicken and rice. Tried to move back to her kibble with chicken but thats when her poop issues came back. She is her crazy self again, barking at the other dogs during dinner and bossy. We take her where the others "go" as I sense she is trying to regain her alpha status by peeing on the other dog spots. I am glad we are at this point. It has been difficult, and in the beginning you are so hopeful and no signs, but the signs come little by little and then she walked. Exhausting and beautiful is all I can say. If you are going through this, stay the course, try to be patient, talk happy and positive to your baby. Give yourself some grace when you are not your best, it is a stressful time, but it should get better over time. 2nd and final appt first week of Jan. |
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 20, 2022 11:27:04 GMT -7
Diane, what an excellent update. Such a neuro improvement in walking!! Sorry to hear about the diarrhea...what a mess than can be. Hopefully the med will help to firm up things and get rid of the root cause for the loose stool. How many inches high is the step? If doing the step causes an impact to her back it possible for you to place a ramp over the one step? Discussion on DIY and commercial ramps: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/867/ramps?page=1 Very nicely put about staying the course and being patient with nerve healing. Don't hesitate to point that excellent advice if you see a overwhelmed and could use your helpful advice. We look forward, then, to graduation day on Jan 3rd. We'll have lots of ideas and tips to living many happy years ahead with your IVDD Brooke. |
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Post by Diane & Brooke on Dec 25, 2022 20:31:43 GMT -7
Happy Merry if you celebrate.
Brooke is doing well. Finally have normal poop. Still chicken and rice. May try to transition her back to kibble and wet food this week.
The step is like a normal step, 6 inches? We have a ramp my husband built for when we had dachshunds, but she is doing well with one step. Typically I put the sling on half way through our walk to make sure she can hover for pooping and it helps support her up the step. Going down is no problem.
Still crating at night. Xpen during the day, sometimes we let her walk about freely making sure stairs are blocked off. It has been so cold it has been hard to get in 4 15-20 min walks.
A couple nights she wasnt settling well, so I gave her the gabapentin and methcarbamal. I dont know what prompted it, took her out a few times thinking it was a potty issue, but I think she wants to be back in the bed with us, which is definitely out.
I am nervous about our vacation in mid January, pet sitter is coming 4 x per day for our 4 dogs for 7 days. I normally am nervpus and hate leaving them. We rarely go on vacation where we dont take them with us.So this just amps up my anxiety about it.
Things should look better and better between now and then, its just something I am dreading. I need vacation for sure, but, you know... I love the dogs so much I worry when Im not the one taking care of them.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 26, 2022 10:20:59 GMT -7
Dianne, if the one step is not causing her to make a little hop/jump up or down (flexing & impact to discs), then it may be ok to not need a ramp over it. For little dogs like doxies a ramp would eliminate a jump up or down a step. You may want to clue the pet sitter in on some things. For dogs the inborn instinct about weakness is for survival protection of the pack as a whole. There are two things that can happen in pack dynamics when a dog has been or is sick. 1. The healthy one may try to eliminate the weaker in the pack. 2. For the sick one, now the weaker in the pack to become more protective and aggressive because they know they are weaker now and may be subject to being attacked.
Have the pet sitter makes sure Brooke feels protected from her best buds at potty times. Let Brooke out to potty by herself, then back the recovery suite. Then let the other 3 dogs out to potty. So from now on whenever you leave the house and your 4 dogs are not supervised, it is a good idea to crate Brooke for her safety.Sounds like Brooke's nerve repair is going well. Keep up the good work of exercising as per the surgeon best you can til the snow/cold lets up. |
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