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Post by Christine & Sarah on Oct 8, 2022 14:06:23 GMT -7
[Original subject line:Carprofen and prednisone ]
I have an 12 year old dog with a history of IVDD (2017/1018). We did conservative care and she did well. She has been fine since.
However, the last few months her legs have started to shake some and she’s a tiny bit slower yo get up. More recently she started to pant and was really off. Took her to the vet and she said she thinks it’s arthritis but could be IVDD again.
2 weeks ago [9/24]the vet prescribed Carprofen and flexadin advanced. Our dog, Sarah, seemed to be doing okay with a bit of improvement until today.
[10/8] She is bowing her back legs and started to slide backwards. I spoke with the vet and she prescribed ✙gabapentin. She told me if she can’t walk, can’t pee etc. to take her to the emergency vet.
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
12 y.o still 27 lbs?
carprofen as of 9/24: ?mg ?x/day for ? days, then stop test for __pain/ _neuro
✙gabapentin ?mg ?x/day
dog needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of Carprofen! ]
I feel like our dog is looking worse than a few hours ago. Her legs are sliding back and she’s panting in my face.
I have an emergency prescription of prednisone after the last episode in 2017. However, she has been taking the nsaid Carprofen the last 2 weeks. Instead of waiting a few days for the Carprofen to leave her system can I start the prednisone NOW?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 8, 2022 14:47:06 GMT -7
It is not safe to change from an NSAID type medication like carprofen to a steroid type like prednisone without a 5-7 day washout period without either med. That being said, if the vet considers it an emergency to save leg nerves or worsening nerve loss, the vet may feel the risk is worth it and knows to double protect the stomach with BOTH Pepcid AC and sucralfate and not do the 4-7 day washout.
You wrote that Sarah's condition seems to be worsening. Please consider taking her to the emergency vet. If the vet, believes she is having an IVDD episode, and wants to prescribe pred, a stronger type of medication, it is only safe with the double stomach protection.
The panting may be a sign of pain, but dogs pant for other reasons. Here are the signs of pain we look for; - shivering-trembling
- yelping when picked up or moved - tight tense tummy
-arched back, ears pinned back - restless, can't find a comfortable position - slow or reluctant to move in suite such as shift positions - not their normal perky interested in life selves
If you are seeing any of the signs above, in addition to the panting, she is highly likely to be in pain.
IVDD is typically very painful. Sometimes gabapentin is not enough to provide relief. What we have seen provide the best relief is a combination of three medicines, each attacking pain differently Methocarbamol for painful muscle contractions. Tramadol Rx'd 3x/day as the general pain reliever Gabapentin for nerve pain also Rx'd 3x/day.
Pain should not be tolerated. It will only slow the healing process. Let the vet know what signs you are seeing and advocate for the addition of tramadol and methocarbamol.
Read up on meds typically used here.
Is she currently on Strict crate rest? Until you are sure that her symptoms are not caused by IVDD, crate rest is essential. Take a look at the info at the link below to refresh your knowledge of crate rest:
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 8, 2022 16:14:54 GMT -7
Christine, panting can be a sign of pain not being controlled because only one kind of pain (gabapentin for nerve pain) has been addressed only today! Gabapentin should be Rx'd for every 8 hrs (3x/day) as that is how long it is effective. ---- Advocate for Tramadol 3x/day as the general analgesic --- Advocate for methocarbamol for muscle contraction pain 3x/day --- What is the stumbling block for not have Pepcid AC (famotidine) on board since 9/24?
Please fill us in on the details so we can follow along and be at the ready with our comments. MED LIST (correct or fill in missing info for pink highlighted: 12 y.o still 27 lbs?carprofen as of 9/24: ?mg ?x/day for ? days, then stop test for __pain/ _neuro gabapentin ?mg ?x/daydog needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of Carprofen! ] HOW TO MONTIOR diminishment of neuro function.Have you been doing 100% STRICT rest since 9/24 of limited movement of back, no walking just bare minimal footsteps? In your mind what would account for in creased pain? Do not understand what "bowing back legs" means. See neuro function list below to best describe what you see.
As damage to the spinal cord increases, there can be a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions if there has lack of strict rest for example). Vet would need to be alerted asap today, if there is a decline, ER if you have to. As Romy explained a switch to the more powerful class (Steroids such a prednisone) DEMANDS two GI tract protectors 1) Pepcid AC (famotidine) 2) Sucralfate
Let us know best you are able, where Sarah is with her neuro function?1. Pain caused by the intial disc tear & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. ? Wobbly walking, ? legs cross 3. ? Nails/toes scuffing floor 4. ? Paws knuckle under. Dog is either slow to right or can't right at all 5. ? Weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand 6. Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down) 7. Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors. 8. Tail wagging with joy is lost 9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. If surgery is not an option (for whatever reason) then the best option is conservative therapy. Surgery can still be successful in the window of 12-24 hours after loss of deep pain sensation. Even after that window of time, there can still be a good outcome. Each hour that passes decreases that chance. Precious hours can be lost with a vet that gets DPS wrong. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about DPS. So if surgery is an option for your family get to a neuro or ortho asap. A quick overview of conservative treatment vs. a surgery: dodgerslist.com/2020/02/10/surgery-vs-conservative/How to maintain a safe disc healing environment safe for a heavy dog and to save your own back: dodgerslist.com/2022/02/10/large-dog-care-tips-ivdd/ |
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Post by Christine & Sarah on Aug 19, 2024 7:37:43 GMT -7
Can someone explain the difference of ivdd1 and ivdd2. I do understand ivdd1, but not so much ivdd2 since it takes a while to show. How long? Does the dog show symptoms for a long time? What symptoms?
Thanks!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,941
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 19, 2024 9:33:52 GMT -7
[Original subject line: Difference between ivdd1 and ivdd2]
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
14 y.o still 27 lbs? ]Christine,if you are in particular observing any signs of neuro diminishment, crate at once to protect the spinal cord from further damage from a suspicion of a disc episode.. Get to a vet asap (hours matter) for an examination and the correct diagnosis with accompanying medications.
MONITORING NEURO FUNCTIONS
As damage to the spinal cord increases, there can be a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions if excessive back/neck movement for example.
Nerves do heal in the exact opposite order nerve damage occured.
1. Pain with initial tear of disc and ensuing swelling
2. __Wobbly walking
__legs cross
3. __Nails/toes scuffing floor
4. __Paws knuckle under. Dog is slow to correct or can't right the paw(s) at all
5. __Weak/little leg movement,
__can't move up into a stand
6. __Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down)
7. __Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted.
Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors.
8. __Tail wagging with joy is lost
9. __Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. If surgery is not an option (for whatever reason) then the best option is conservative therapy.
Surgery can still be successful in the window of 12-24 hours after loss of deep pain sensation. Even after that window of time, there can still be a good outcome. Each hour that passes decreases that chance.
Precious hours can be lost with a general vet who gets DPS wrong. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about DPS.
🚩A quick overview of conservative treatment vs. a surgery:
dodgerslist.com/surgery-vs-conservative/
🚩Dr. Isaacs indepth Interview on surgery and conservative treatment:
dodgerslist.com/dr-isaacs-surgery-answers
Hansen Type 1 vs. Hansen Type 2
Hansen Type 1
This type of disk displacement has acute onset and occurs most commonly in chondrodystrophic (short legged) breeds (eg, dachshund, Pekingese, beagle, basset hound, Welsh corgi).
In dogs with Hansen type I IVDD, a portion of the nucleus pulposus herniates, or extrudes, through the fibrocartilage of the annulus fibrosus into the spinal canal. Disk material in the spinal canal can then cause compression of the spinal cord. The pain, leg weakness, or paralysis associated with type I IVDD depends on the degree of spinal cord compression.
Hansen Type 2
This type of disc is more chronic in nature and most often occurs in older, nonchondrodystrophic canine breeds.
Hansen Type II disc disease in dogs is more similar to disc disease in humans. Instead of an extrusion in the center of the disc, there is a bulging and protrusion of the annulus, or outer part of the disc. Most dogs show signs of Hansen Type II disc disease right away, but some develop the condition more gradually. In these dogs, you may notice reluctance to exercise, rise, jump or climb stairs. They may also look stiff or have a hunched back. Medium to large breed dogs, ages five to 12 years old, tend to be the most affected by this type of disc disease.
Dodgerslist has contacted the neuros who help us about older large breed dogs showing neuro diminishment with a diagnosis of a disc episode. They recommended with any sign of neuro loss, to treat the same as a Hansen's type 1. That is to provide STRICT crate rest for 8 weeks to allow the disc to heal and prevent worse damage to the spinal cord.
Review the principals and lots of handy tips in providing true strict rest
Browse through the tried and true ways to provide Effective STRICT Rest Recovery for your dog:
🚩 dodgerslist.com/strict-rest-recovery-process/
Avoid dangerous detours, follow the "Roadmap"
VIEW, DOWNLOAD and print a copy for your fridge from here:
🚩 dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Roadmap-for-Fridge.pdf
🚩dodgerslist.com/ivdd-healing-the-torn-disc/
Update us. We'd love to hear here how Sarah is doing since you last wrote back in 2022.
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