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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 7:14:19 GMT -7
my chubbs is on day 5 of his first disk blow out and he is not getting any better.
He is on meds and still crying, he is leaking pee,can't poop.stopped eating again
he now has sores on his tummy from all the pee
I am not seeing this getting any better
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 5, 2013 7:51:38 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. My name is Paula what is yours? In the early days of learning our dogs have IVDD, everyone needs a shoulder to lean on while getting things figured out, dealing with emotions, getting up to speed on meds, what disc disease is, etc. Your job in the coming days is to become a reader so you become the confident leader of the health care team.... to discuss confidently various issues from medications to recognizing if suggestions of activity would be harmful to the healing disc. All that takes being a reader. Start on our main website with "Overview: the essentials" yellow button it will give you the degree of understanding you need right away…. as time permits continue to read all the orange buttons and the blue button "Disc Disease 101 core readings" to complete your education. Here is the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmNow let's get busy getting things right for Chubbs. PAIN That is the first thing that HAS to be right. If meds are properly prescribed pain will be under control in one hour and there after dose to dose (no shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy) Let us know the exact names of all meds, the dose in mg's and how often you give them. If on a steroid has their been a recent reduction in dose and frequency (a taper) Get on the phone now with your vet and strongly advocate for these meds used to control pain, all three can be used together with any anti-inflammatory: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmNOT EATING If Chubb's is not on Pepcid AC, or another stomach protector that is why his is not eating….this is an earl red flag sign of GI tract problems caused by any anti-inflammatory. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAIDs. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not to take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID.
This directory is in alpha order we all look up each and every med our dogs are on to protect them, know what to monitor for, etc.:
www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm
EXPRESSING the BLADDER
Are you expressing, did you get a hands on lesson? You will get more out of the lesson if you view this first. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm You will likely need to express every 2-3 hours to keep him dry while learning to express.
--What breed is your dog and did you specifically get a diagnosis of IVDD?
-- What was the date you saw the vet and 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7? That means no laps, no couch, no baths, no scooting around. Do everything you can to limit movement and protect the spinal cord and the damaged disc.
-- Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? The very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk once off all pain meds and no more signs of pain.
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm
-- Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood?
It IS in the cards for Chubs to get back to enjoying life after recovering. What will make all the difference is your own self education. Knowledge is the best defense in fighting and winning with this disease. Reading others posts on the forum can be of comfort. But the meat of what you need to know is on our main web page. Here's the link again www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm
Let us know what the vet does to adjust the pain meds, that the tummy is protected with Pepcid AC, how often you are expressing and that Chubbs is in 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 10:49:56 GMT -7
ok, he is on
Tramadol 50 mgs every 6 hrs
Prednisone 05mg once a day now,
Methocarbamol 2xday
I am still waiting on the vet to approve anti anxiety meds.I have listened to him cry from 6am this am and he is not stopping.
yes I am expressing him he just leaks
sorry but my nerves are shoot and if my dog continues to suffer in this way I will be putting him to sleep. This is horrible
oh and yes his back as he can not feel anything in his back end,tail
can't walk,can move his legs
He is paralyzed
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 5, 2013 10:57:26 GMT -7
My name is Paula, what is yours?
Don't give up on Chubbs, he can heal and you can deal with this… there is just a bit of a bump in the road to get over these first days…. you will and CAN DO it!
Can you clarify for us what you mean by crying… is he crying because he wants attention, to get out of the crate?
Or are you meaning he is crying because he is in pain. Signs of pain are shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy, not their normal perky self.
The reason he may be in pain is because the "test the waters" taper of pred has started. It is your job on the taper to notify the vet at once upon seeing pain. Pain shows not all the swelling is gone.
Often it takes being at the anti-inflammatory dose of prednisone (5mg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. When the vet guesses swelling might be gone there will be a taper. The dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose your job at home would be to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for any hint of pain. To have a clear picture on a taper, pain meds are also stopped or backed off too. If Chubbs is showing pain he would need to be BACK on the anti-inflammatory dose @ 5mg 2x a day and be on his pain meds as well.
Rule of thumb is:
pain = swelling = more time on Pred needed.
Did you get a hands on top of yours expressing lesson. How often are you expressing the bladder?
Do you have him on Pepcid AC to protect the stomach from Prednisone damage (first signs are of not wanting to eat)
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 5, 2013 11:02:04 GMT -7
If the crying is an attention thing and not of pain, then YES he needs something to calm him so he can be given a chance to heal. Let us know if this is pain you are observing or attention getting crying. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best to calm. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Farnum's Comfort Zone with D.A.P. www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html [pheromone diffuser] with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php [Composure] 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com Other brands may be available in your area… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label. Consider some of these ideas: -- Many members have found a pet stroller to solve the whining problem because the stroller can be wheeled from room to room as you go about your activities. Pet strollers, however, should only be used when you are directly supervising. More details on strollers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htm-- Put a garment you have been wearing and have not washed in the crate. -- At night, try placing the crate on a sturdy bedside table to sleep next to you. -- During the day try the coffee table or the dinning room table so there will be a view out a window and a better perspective on what is going on in the house from a high. -- Make the crate or ex-pen more cozy by draping a blanket over part of the top. Play classical music or one of the wildlife TV shows. Be aware you might be inadvertently training for unwanted behavior. To dogs rewards are: food, looking at them, talking to them, eye contact, approaching the crate, petting. So anytime you see unwanted behavior ignore it, turn your back, leave the room if you have to. Anytime your dog is sitting or lying down quietly, give a reward. Soon your dog will learn which of the behaviors receive reward. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 11:04:46 GMT -7
I am going to say he is whining because he is in pain,will not settle at all for 8 hrs now.
no he is not on Pepcid Ac ,when I asked about his stomach I was told just make sure he eats.
He stopped eating this morning
Yes he yelps when moved
I will not let him continue like this.
Thank you for trying to help but I know I can not do this nor can he.
I will be saying my good byes to my Chubbs
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 5, 2013 11:11:10 GMT -7
Hazel, is this you from facebook this morning?
His pain meds are not YET right. If you need get a new vet (2nd opinion). Strongly advocate for:
Gabapentin--- it works synergistically with Tramadol and vet are finding good success with pain relief.
Pepcid AC- ask in this particular way: Is there any health reason wh Chubbs can take Pepcid AC? If he has no liver, heart or kidney problems then be proactive as the vet we follow do by giving 5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) 2x a day. Stoping eating is a vERY BIG RED FLAG sign. Get pepcid on board right now and then keep the vet in the loop.
Please give Chubbs a chance with a vet who knows IVDD and prescribes the right meds
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 11:14:49 GMT -7
yes it is hazel and there is no one on this planet that wants this to be ok more then me.
I love him with all I am and As a humane Officer I can not stand by and watch him suffer in this way. I will again talk to my vet but if I do not see a change over the next 24 hrs I will let him go.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 5, 2013 11:37:40 GMT -7
Hazel, thank you for giving him a chance. What you should look for in a change is the pain to be fully controlled. IF the right mix of pain relievers is on board (methocarbamol, tramadol, and gabapentin) in the right dose of mg's AND the right frequency, then his pain should be kept at bay and not showing through nearing the next doses. It takes some feedback back and forth to let the vet know what you observe. The vet needs your feedback to make adjustments to the pain relievers. If your vet is not IVDD knowledgeable and will not treat the pain aggressively, then move on..there are IVDD vets out there…just find one. MOre ideas on finding a new vet if need be: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmCan you clarify the current dose of Pred. is it 5mg? 1x a day is NOT the anti-inflamamtory dose… it is 5mg 2x a day. So if he is being tapered off that is why the pain…all the inflammation has not yet been address by pred. How much does Chubbs weigh? Can you advocate for not just the Pepcid AC which by now you should have in his tummy because he is not eating…. but also a 2nd stomach protector. Sucralfate works in a different way by coating the stomach lining. Two protectors so that he can stay on pred to get the swelling and inflammation down. Swelling in the spinal cord is the cause of the pain. Can you tell us if the vet thought the disc was in the neck or the back? How often are you expressing the bladder? While Pred remains in his systems you would likely need to express every 2-3 hours? Do let us know his stomach is protected, how often you express and that his pain meds have been adjusted. Those are the first steps to take. Conservative treatment is focused on getting the disc healed in comfort. Nerve healing may or may not come during the 8 weeks as the body can take longer to regenerate nerve endings than 8 weeks. Stay in touch, we are anxious to keep up with Chubbs' progress. Hang in there with Chubbs, he and you will have many years ahead after getting through this bump in the road. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 11:39:54 GMT -7
ok,I got the vet to give all you are telling me and I will give it a chance
I express almost ever hour and he still leaks
what is the dose for the Pepcid AC ? he is about 22 lbs
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 5, 2013 11:47:34 GMT -7
Hazel, kudos to you for getting the meds on board Chubbs needs… you did great…if I could reach through this post I'd give you a great big hug!!! Ok, now can you fill us in on exactly what Chubbs' meds are: the exact name, the dose in mg's and how often you may give each of them. Pepcid AC and Sucralfate too. Expressing is a new skill for you. I can remember expressing and still having leaks too, so I hear you. The key to expressing is to learn to feel the shape of the bladder in all of the stages of emptying. When it is full the entire tummy IS filled by the bladder and it is very easy to express urine out. The challenge is as it empties it will move back into the pelvic area, easily slide out of your fingers. At the last stage of empty, you will almost be able to feel the fingers of your other hand. THEN the bladder is really empty and should take only 2-3 hours to fill back up again. Pred makes them thirsty, once off of pred expressign will go to every 4-6 hours. Please review the videos www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm and as we all have done….go back to the vet. Express right there in the clinic and then have them check your work….this is how most of us have learned. Chubbs needs 5mg of pepcid ac (famotidine) right now and then every 12 hours. IF you can work it so you eventually give Pepcid AC 30 mins before pred AND give pred with a meal that will be very helpful. Please keep the vet in the loop about the Pepcid AC. |
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Post by Whitney & Henry on Sept 5, 2013 13:23:22 GMT -7
Hi Hazel,
Me, my husband, my big dog Bruce and my little Henry (1st week on conservative) are all praying for Chubbs and you. When we were able to get Henry's medicine in him (had to wait over the long holiday weekend) and got it right he feels MUCH better and is settling in. We are sure Chubbs will do the same!
Blessings to you both!
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 5, 2013 15:11:48 GMT -7
Dear Hazel,
I'm so very sorry your Chubbs is going through this. But it truly is just a matter of getting his pain medication right and then his pain will be under control and he can heal. The Pepcid AC and Sucralfate will help his tummy so he'll get his appetite back. Once the Prenisone gets the swelling in his back down, he won't even need the pain medication. You have him back on the original dose of Prednisone - 5 mg twice a day - right?
I had the same problem learning to express my Jeremy's bladder. No matter how often I tried and how hard I tried, he would still leak. It took quite a bit of practice but I did learn how to do it and now it's just part of our daily routine and we don't even think about. You'll get there, too. What helped me keep Jeremy's belly from getting sore from the acid in the urine was washing him with green tea. Just make up a pot of green tea, let it cool and then wash his belly with it. It neutralizes the acid of the urine so it doesn't burn and helps with the smell, too.
Please don't despair. There is no reason you need to lose your best friend. Just stick with us and we'll help you every step of the way. As Paula asked, please let us know exactly what medications he's on now as per your discussion with your vet, the dose in mgs and how often you give it.
My prayers are with you and Chubbs. You both can do this and we'll help you.
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Sept 5, 2013 15:19:42 GMT -7
HI Hazel, my name is Maureen. I am so sorry that you and Chubbs are having such a rotten time getting his pain under control. I am so glad that your Vet has adjusted his medications, and hopefully you will see results fast!. Keeping you in thought and prayer. ps - the green tea really does work well  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 17:47:58 GMT -7
22 lbs
Tramadol 50 mgs every 6 hrs
Prednisone 5mg twice a day now
Methocarbamol 2xday
Gabapentin 100mg once a day
Pepcid AC 5mg twice a day
stool softener 2 pills in the AM
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 5, 2013 18:36:58 GMT -7
Thanks for the update. let us know if you are now seeing his pain more controlled,,,, actually fully controlled. Your vet still has room to move with the Gabapentin in that it could be given every 8 hours if you get a prescription for it. There is even room to move with the Tramadol. So observe for pain and if you see any hints of it, give further feedback to your vet …you guys are the pain management team and need to have good communications. How many mgs of methocarbamol do you give 2x a day? Tramadol is a med that could cause constipation. What is the exact name of the stool softner? We have found that plain pureed pumpkin given 2x a day along with soaking his kibble in water will do the trick and avoid another med in his system. Pumpkin is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. The amount of water in the diet makes all the difference. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with one teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. To firm up the stool add 1 teaspoon pumpkin to kibble and no extra water 1x a day. Note alternatives: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potoato. We look forward to your next update -- pain controlled dose to dose now? -- on expressing (did you get another lesson?), staying dry longer? -- is he now starting to eat with Pepcid AC on board? Do you have his bedding set up to make laundry easier and wick moisture away from his body by using fleece bottom sheets….all the details are explained under " Blankets and change of bedding" : www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htmCan you tell us if the vet said the disc was in his neck or in his back? |
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Post by Pauliana on Sept 5, 2013 19:07:13 GMT -7
Hazel,
Once pain is under control you will see your Chubbs begin to heal and his personality will come back. All of us here have been through this with our dogs. The early days are rough but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.. I remember what it was like to wake up that morning on January 28th with Tyler unable to move his back legs and the pain he was in.. It was horrible but we rushed him to a Neuro Vet and she knew what to do to treat him and he has recovered very well, other than a mild episode starting in mid July. He will graduate crate rest on Sept 9th. He is a happy little guy and can walk very well and is raring to go.. The secret is getting the pain under control.. Made all the difference. Pain is detrimental to healing. Once the Prednisone has done it's job and gotten the swelling under control, that will eliminate the source of the pain. In the meantime the pain medications keep the pain under control. If the pain isn't under control tell the Vet as Paula, Marjorie and Maureen have told you.. Communication with the Vet and learning about IVDD will help you to help Chubbs.
Your Chubbs can have a happy and healthy life with IVDD, he just needs to be treated as a "fragile precious treasure" That's what my Vet said to me that day in January... We did that and we have a happy dog to show for it..
Dogs don’t know pity. They don’t know “can’t.” They don’t understand “may never.” They don’t give up. They don’t get discouraged. They epitomize “where there is a WILL, there is a WAY.” They will find a way! They don’t give up easily or quickly. They move forward in life in the best way they can. They don’t care if they can walk again. They care about your love most importantly. OK, food ranks right up near the top too! To them each new day brings the promise of another opportunity to get MORE - more food, more treats, and more love.
Our challenge is clear: not to allow our perspective on quality of life to influence our decisions or cloud how we judge our dog’s quality of life living with IVDD. Part of that challenge is to manage our fear and not look at the situation based on how WE would perceive things if it were to happen to us. We need to keep in mind what THEY value and help support them in their journey in life. Right now, your dog needs your support to help him become pain free and heal so he can resume his journey in life and the things he values in whatever way he can.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2013 4:13:25 GMT -7
It is his BACK
And I know that he can live with this but I also know I must be able to keep him safe and pain free. If I can not do that for him I will let him go. I have 5 dogs in my home and 2 are over 100lbs. I also work full time, volunteer as a Humane Officer, so it is not as easy as some say to treat him as fragile precious treasure. His wellbeing is the only thing I care about.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 6, 2013 4:33:11 GMT -7
Hi, Hazel, how is Chubbs doing this morning? Any difference in the pain yet and has he eaten anything?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2013 5:42:05 GMT -7
thanks for asking Marjorie, He is feeling better and slept well last night
only up once and yes he eat this morning.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Sept 6, 2013 6:41:27 GMT -7
That's wonderful, Hazel. I'm very glad to hear it! |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 6, 2013 7:00:02 GMT -7
Hazel, this IS a most excellent report, slept the night, and eating this morning!!! Go glad to hear the pain is in control now… he can begin the process of healing his disc and with time will work on healing his nerves.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2013 7:02:00 GMT -7
so the big problem I have now is he is having a very hard time pooping.
I can hear it sloshing around in there but nothing coming out.
Everything I read says that this should be no problem but he can't seem to get it out.
Is it possible he loss the ability to poop with out some kind of help ?
And yes he is getting the right diet and stool softeners
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2013 7:03:16 GMT -7
Paula he is trembling again  so not good had a good 5 hrs out of the last 24 |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 6, 2013 7:13:07 GMT -7
=============
Tramadol 50 mgs every 6 hrs
Prednisone 5mg twice a day now
Methocarbamol 2xday --no listing for mgs on bottle
Gabapentin 100mg once a day
Pepcid AC 5mg twice a day
Dulcolax 200mg 2 pills in the AM
===========
Your job is now to report your observations of the last time meds were given and now a sign of pain (shivering). Your vet is not being as aggressive with pain meds as he could be. Gabapentin can be given every 8 hours. Also Tramadol can be given every 4 hours. If he is not willing to be more aggressive in pain relieve, then you know he is not comfortable in treating disc disease. You will need to hire a new vet this morning and get the proper help for Chubbs.
Let us know what the vet said or what the new vet says.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2013 7:18:30 GMT -7
there is no mg listed on the bottle or I would have told you
as for a new vet there isn't one,I live in a very small in the middle of nowhere PA.
He got all his meds at 6am but the tramadol he got at 6:45am
Dulcolax 200mg in the morning
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Deborah & Angel
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Sept 6, 2013 7:35:28 GMT -7
Hazel, are you close to Pittsburgh, www.facebook.com/pvsec1: they are GREAT. PLEASE don't give up on your FurBaby.. :/ Praying for you and many (((hugs))) coming your way..  |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 6, 2013 8:02:15 GMT -7
Let us know your city, we may be able to help.
IN the meantime, what you can do is get on the phone with the current vet and communicate the need for increased pain management. That would be the humane thing to do… just the same as you would do for yourself or another family member…. Chubbs can't speak up… so he is depending on your skills to communicate to the vet. Be STRONG for Chubbs and get your message across to the vet. If surgery is not a consideration, then in all fairness to Chubbs everything possible must be tried to get the pain in control….so Chubbs can start work on healing.
We have had members who have personally taken Dulcolax report that this laxative can cause severe cramps and gas, this is well reported if you Google Dulcolax. We do not recommend using Dulcolax. That is probably what you are hearing "sloshing" sounds. I would absolutely stop ducolax and use 1 teaspoon of plain pureed pumpkin 1x a day along with soaking each of his kibble meals in equal parts of water or broth. It is the extra water of soaking each kibble meal PLUS the 1 teaspoon of pumpkin that helps with constipation.
With poop, nature will use reflexes to allow it to exit the body. You can express manually to expedite poop exiting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2013 8:37:30 GMT -7
I have contacted the vet and will give any and all meds possible.
I am not using Dulcolax laxative just the stool softener
And I am sorry but your tone in this last message is very un needed
Thanks for your help so far I will be leaving now.
I do not need to be made to fell any worse then I already do.
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Post by Linda Stowe on Sept 6, 2013 10:03:58 GMT -7
Hi Hazel, Please stick with us. All we want to do is help Chubbs. That is our main concern here - to help you help him.
Can you let us know exactly where you live and let me see if I can find someone who has experienced a dog with IVDD to help you. If you would rather not put your address here, please email me at lstowe1@tx.rr.com Not promising anything, but I can try.
Linda
Founder, Dodgerslist
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so not good
