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Post by Michelle & Kit on Sept 17, 2022 11:22:02 GMT -7
Hello! My sweet 13 year old, oversized papillon was just diagnosed with cervical IVDD [9/17] this morning. I've been reading/researching all day and have a lot more reading to do, but figured we'd introduce ourselves. I'll try to answer all the questions...
☆ 1 23 lbs
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit
23 lbs13 y.o.
prednisone 9/17: 5mgs 2x/day for ? days, then a test taper for: _pain / _neuro
gabapentin 100mgs 2x/day
methocarbamol 500 mgs 1x/day
Kit needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board for duration of prednisone! ]
Kitsune (Kit), 23 lbs, is currently on...
Prednisone 10mg, half a pill twice a day, so 5mg in the morning and 5mg in the evening.
Gabapentin 100mg twice a day.
Methocarbamol 500 mg once a day.
I have prescriptions for all of those for the next week. We have a follow up appointment scheduled for Tuesday 9/21 to access how he's doing. The vet discussed that we'd have to taper off the Prednisone, but we haven't determined when that will happen yet.
☆ 2 Kitsune, Kit for short, is a papillon. He's oversized though, so not as small as papillons usually are. My name is Michelle, and we are in the US.
☆ 3 We saw our regular general practice vet. Diagnosis given was listed as "cervical disk disease/IVDD".
☆ 4 We saw the vet today, September 17th. Symptoms started around 3 - 4 am. We saw the vet at 10am, and started crate rest as soon as we got home.
☆ 5 Currently no shivering, trembling, yelping. Kit has been sleeping in his crate since we got home from the vet, so I have not carried him out to potty etc. yet. Will be sure to take note of any signs of pain and report them to our vet.
☆ 6 wobbly walk?Yes to all. He never lost the ability to move/walk, but, before taking him to the vet, it was clear that he was in pain when walking.
☆ 7 No leaks or wet bedding. Kit has been using the bathroom normally.
☆ 8 Yes he's eating and drinking. Poops are normal so far, but his last poop was last night before we started meds.
The vet did not mention Pepcid/famotidine and that's something I need to look into. I have pepcid on hand for my other dog, but, unfortunately Kit's vet is closed until Monday morning, so I won't be able to call and ask them about this until then. She did tell me to give his meds with food. Is pepcid something that's safe for me to just give him, or should I wait until I can discuss with his vet?
So yeah...Basically Kit woke me up, in pain, between 3 and 4 am last night. He was walking with a slightly arched back, and was reluctant to move/walk. I took him out to potty and he used the bathroom normally, but then sat down in the grass and didn't want to walk. I carried him inside and got him to lay down in his dog bed and he fell asleep. I stayed up to keep an eye on him. Emergency vet wait was hours long and they make you wait in your car, so I decided to wait until morning to call his regular vet. Thankfully his regular vet had an emergency appointment available at 10am.
The vet diagnosed him with cervical disk disease/IVDD after examining him.
It's been a very stressful day! Like I mentioned, we have a recheck scheduled for Tuesday (9/21) so if there's anything I should ask my vet about, aside from adding Pepcid which I will call about on Monday morning, please let me know! Hopefully I did all this right, thanks so much for any assistance!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Sept 17, 2022 13:43:34 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Michelle. We are glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve learned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you. Learn more about us and how we team up with veterinarians: dodgerslist.com/about-team-dodgerslist/
You have come to the right place to learn about IVDD.
For a dog being treated for IVDD conservatively, very strict crate rest is essential. Conservative care aims to relieve swelling/compression of the spinal cord with an anti-inflammatory. Over time, the hope is for disc material where it should not be will shrink back enough so that pain resolves and nerves can start to self repair. Too much movement and the damaged disc can tear more, even rupture, causing more pain and possibly more nerve damage, even paralysis. Information about how crate rest works and supplies that may be helpful are here: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/
Cervical discs are typically very painful because a dog moves its head with almost all actions and when almost all other parts of the body moves. That continuous movement means that healing can take longer because the neck doesn't get the rest to allow the disc uninterrupted healing. We have some tips on caring for your dog through a cervcal disc issue here:
If you are certain Kit does not have any kidney, liver or heart health issues, start Pepcid AC today and let your vet know as soon as possible. The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. For Kit, that would round out to 10mgs 2x/daily.
The typical pain meds used for an IVDD episode do not last long in the body. Often they have to be prescribed for every 8 hours to provide full pain relief. Pain will only slow the healing process. Information about meds commonly used can be found on the page below:
Help all of your family recognize any emergency signs and what action to take. You can print this flyer for your fridge:
It is very scary when our dogs have IVDD. It becomes less so when we learn all we can about the disease. We have a lot of information on our main website: www.dodgerslist.comYou can use the search bar at the top of the page to search for particular topics. |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 17, 2022 17:58:38 GMT -7
Michelle, Kit has very mild symptoms of pain only. And he has no reported neuro diminishment. That makes him a very good candidate to heal under conservative treatment. As Romy explained in her post, limited movement is "the" key to getting that disc to heal. Vets who know IVDD, understand that transporting a dog into a vet visit can be a risk of too much movement for the early healing disc. These vets will take a phone update from you and do adjustments to meds also over the phone. Be an IVDD savvy pet parent so you can speak up for Kit. Here are some things you can consider: -- Know the signs of neuro diminishment to monitor for and a need to alert your vet about. 1. yes 9/17 Pain caused by the intial disc tear & inflammation in the spinal cord
2. Wobbly walking, legs cross
3. Nails/toes scuffing floor
4. Paws knuckle under
5. Weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand
6. Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down)
7. Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors.
8. Tail wagging with joy is lost
9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment.-- Advocate for a phone call to advise of any neuro diminishment and if pain would surface, advocate to adjust meds. Prednisone is used until all painful swelling is gone. No one knows how long this can take. All vets must guess. The usual dose is a 5-7day or even a 14-day course of prednisone. When the course ends then prednisone is tapered. This taper is the time for YOU to monitor for any hint of pain. This is a good page to understand how prednisone is used during a disc episode. Knowledge allow you to speak up for Kit, ask good questions and best understand what the vet's treatment plan is. Good READING on this page: dodgerslist.com/2020/04/18/steroids-vs-nsaids/ Pain meds block pain. on the taper of prednisone is the time to stop pain meds so you can accurately assess for existing of any remaining painfully swollen tissue. Pain meds during the use of prednisone are effective for only about 8 hrs. Thus usually Rx'd for every 8 hrs. If any hint of pain is revealed, phone to advocate for both methocarbamol and gabapentin to be Rx'd every 8 hrs (3x/day). For how many days is Kit to stay on prednisone 5mgs 2x/day?Let us know if you can update your vet over the phone instead of a risky to the healing disk transport into the clinic for mild symptoms.If you are aware Kit has no health issues, then start the Pepcid AC (famotidine) and keep your vet in the loop asap. LEARN MORE about stomach protection: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stomach-protection/
Please continue to keep us updated on Kit. |
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Post by Michelle & Kit on Sept 18, 2022 9:48:39 GMT -7
Thank you!  At our appointment yesterday our vet said she's going to call on Tuesday to check in. Our appointment is for Wednesday, the 21st, I mistakenly wrote that it was on Tuesday above. The way I understood it, the appointment scheduled is just a placeholder in case we need it. I'm assuming when I speak with the vet on the phone she'll evaluate whether or not I need to bring him in again, or if we can just adjust his meds based on the tele-appointment. I currently have a weeks worth of prednisone at 5mgs 2x/day, but the plan is to stay in close contact with the vet to decide if he needs it for longer, and when to start to attempt to taper him off. I'm going to call the vet when they're opened tomorrow morning to discuss Pepcid AC. I'm nervous about giving it to him without the go ahead from the vet. During his emergency appointment yesterday the vet also noted that she heard a mild heart murmur that was not present during his last check up. Our plan for that currently is to evaluate further once this IVDD episode is behind us. I'm going to ask about giving him his pain meds more often as well. I could tell yesterday that the pain meds seemed like they were starting to wear off a bit before he was due for his next round. He's feeling MUCH better today than yesterday. He's crate trained, but not used to being in his crate so much, so I think that's going to be a bit of a struggle for us. We have multiple crates set up all over the house, so we can set him up in whatever room we're in so he at least doesn't feel alone. I've been so stressed the past two days. Having so much information to learn more about this is SO helpful. Thanks again, I'll update again for sure! |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 18, 2022 9:54:20 GMT -7
Moderator Paula is reading your post and preparing a reply. Thank you for your patience
👀 Please refresh your browser to see new replies.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 18, 2022 10:14:31 GMT -7
Michelle, glad to hear your vet has a sense that vet visits for Kit would be saved for the most urgent of health issues. Sorry you did not get a range to use pain meds since Kit is needlessly having pain when vet is closed. Please update us when you can what the Monday morn pain med adjustments are. To be clear Prednisone was started on 9/17. The 5mgs 2x/day is for 7 days? The number of days on the anti-inflammatory level IS IMPORTANT info to have correctly noted. It may take anywhere from 7- 30 days before pred can get ALL the swelling down. The begin of the taper on Sat 9/24 will be the time for YOU to monitor for pain and alert the vet. Since the taper starts on a weekend when vet is not open, please let us know the Plan B you both have worked out should pain surface and WHICH your vet wants on a taper: -- stop pain meds or -- back then down by frequency/mgs): dodgerslist.com/2020/04/18/steroids-vs-nsaids/ RULE OF THUMB on a pred taper Pain= another course of PRED + all pain meds, GI protectors back on board. No Pain= go to TAPER conclusion...finish out the 8 weeks of crate rest for the disc to heal. Do let us know with murmur, what your vet selects from a different class of acid suppressors: Pepcid AC (famotidine) is a antihistamine which suppresses acids marvistavet.com/famotidine.pml Omeprazole is a proton pump inhibitor to suppress acids marvistavet.com/omeprazole.pml OR... ______? You may find some tips about emergency crate training to help Kit be able to relax in his recovery suite. dodgerslist.com/2020/02/24/tips-to-help-with-recovery-suite/Lots more handy member ideas for making the STRICT rest period go smoother: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/14/strict-rest-recovery-process/ |
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Post by Michelle & Kit on Nov 16, 2022 9:57:21 GMT -7
Hey! I figured I'd come back and post an update since Kit officially hit his 8 weeks of rest recently. Kit ended up being on prednisone for a total of 6 weeks. 3 of those weeks were his taper, though. He is doing well as far as his neck/IVDD goes but, unfortunately, he did develop idiopathic Cushing's as a result of the prednisone. We were very concerned when we tapered him off the pred and his side effects/symptoms (mostly increased drinking and urination) didn't go away. We ruled out other potential causes (UTI, diabetes, kidney issues). So we're basically keeping an eye on him and will repeat bloodwork to ensure that the side effects of the prednisone do eventually decrease. In the past few days we've seen some slight improvements. He's no longer getting me up multiple times a night to go outside, so that's a good thing! Fingers crossed we never have to deal with another IVDD flare but, if we do, I'm assuming our vet will want to go the NSAID route because of all this. It's been quite stressful to go from dealing with IVDD to dealing with the idiopathic Cushing's but I think we are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. |
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Nov 16, 2022 14:37:00 GMT -7
I am sorry that the steroids have caused an increase in cortisol, which has led to symptoms of Cushing's disease. This sometimes happens, unfortunately. It is quite likely that these symptoms will begin to resolve now that steroids are not being used.
Congratulations on Kit's graduation!
Now that Graduation Day is here, it is time for a slow re-introduction back to physical activity. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Kit should not have free rein of the house and yard immediately. Take a look at our information and then come up with a plan to gradually increase activity over about a month's time following the end of crate rest.
Here is a sample schedule to slowly introduce your dog back to family life and physical activity: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly/?highlight=sample%20schedule Make your home back friendly with ramps instead of stairs, blocking off furniture and training to keep all four paws on the ground: dodgerslist.com/2020/07/09/home-protect-ivdd-backs
Lots more ideas and tips in living with an IVDD dog: dodgerslist.com/living-with-ivdd-tips
If you like, here are some ideas to help others with IVDD dogs. Education about disc disease is our number one mission! We wish we did not have to hear of another dog that was put to sleep because of disc disease, nor one denied the correct principles of crate rest to help them heal. We would like all of our members to pay forward for the help they have received with their dog by helping us educate! Pick what suits you....
--- You've been there, and are doing it....if you see another member on the Forum needing support or information share what you know to be true or point them to one of our many IVDD articles. The "search box" on each page makes quick work to find the right helpful link:
-- "Share" our FB posts to widen the reach of IVDD knowledge
-- Hand carry our literature and tell your vet about us. dodgerslist.com/free-literature-2/
-- Don't forget to add a photo to the gallery and 1-2 sentences. Give inspiration to others just starting a scary IVDD journey. Directions to u/l here: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/2262/put-dodgerslist-photo-gallery-calendar |
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