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Post by Martha & Scooter on Apr 9, 2022 4:39:02 GMT -7
☀︎1-- Scooter is a 4 1/2 year old Dachshund and my name is Martha. We live in the U.S. ☀︎2-- He weighs about 18lbs. ☀︎3-- His surgeon is a neurologist/neursurgeon. ☀︎4-- Surgery was 3/30 and he's been home for about a week now. ☀︎5-- We do not yet have orders for PT, but the doctor indicated this will happen soon. ☀︎6-- We were advised 4-6 weeks. ☀︎7-- He does not seem to be in pain. ☀︎8-- He's taking Gabapentin 100mg 3x/day and a 3 week course of Prednisone 5mg, which we will begin to taper [4/9] today.
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 18 lbs 4.5 y.o Prednisone taper starts 4/9 gabapentin 100mgs 3x/day]
☀︎9-- He was diagnosed with IVDD Stage 5, no DPS. We think we've noticed some reflex response here and there. ☀︎10-- We are getting better at bladder expression, but occasionally find leaks. ☀︎11-- He's on prednisone, so he's hungry and thirsty. No constipation or diarrhea.
Concerns/questions: My dog is starting to get restless and whine and bark to get out of the crate. I've got kongs to occupy him, but worry about calories. He's not really into chewing at this age, so chew toys won't cut it. A friend suggested CBD oil, which I plan to ask the vet about.
I'm having back pain from all of the crouching, squatting, etc I'm doing to express his bladder (we do this on a piddle pad on the floor) and am wondering if there are some safe options that would help me avoid my own back injuries? I was thinking about baby changing tables, but wondering if there's another solution?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 9, 2022 7:34:00 GMT -7
Welcome Martha! Very glad to hear you are getting good at expressing the bladder. That will help to keep bladder infection away while preserving the health of the bladder muscles for when bladder control returns. POOP Are you expressing for poop also? Take a look here: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/05/bladder-bowel-care/
BLADDER For now while Scooter is on post-op rest to allow all the surgical areas to heal, expressing on the floor/peepad can be the safest for Scooter. i.postimg.cc/7Zxk544C/express-tub428.jpg To save your back you need a stool to sit on such as a rubbermaid stool you can find at your hardware or big box store for around $10. My set up was using the bathtub with a traction mat. But you certainly could continue to express on a pee pad on the floor with a stool for you. Once Scooter is off of post-op crate rest, then you could train him to be calm and learn to balance on your toilet seat as pictured in video below:
CALMERs -- Many members have found a pet stroller to solve the whining problem because the stroller can be wheeled from room to room as you go about your activities. Pet strollers, however, should only be used when you are directly supervising. More details on strollers: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/17/pet-stroller-conservatve-treatment/-- Put a garment you have been wearing and have not washed in the crate. -- Spend some time wearing your post op dog dog out with mental stimulation with tricks that do not cause excessive back movements such a nose touch a paw or a food bowl. Of course the training takes place inside the crate. Tips on how to do clicker training: www.clickertraining.com/15tipsTeaching self-calming exercises can also help your dog to relax more. You can make something as simple as eye contact a very rewarding behavior that also acts as a way for your dog to “ask permission” when he wants something. When dogs have a focus and an understanding about how to behave to get what they want, they are much calmer overall. To do this, each time your dog looks at you, say, something like, “Yes!” or use a clicker to mark the second he looks at you, and then give your dog a high-value food reward. [NOTE: for crate resting dogs, shift your body a bit] .... wait for your dog to look up at you again, say, “Yes,” and reward again. Do this exercise 10 or so times and then say, “All done,” and put the treats away. Come back later and do it again until you can see that your dog is really starting to make automatic eye contact in hopes you will say, “Yes,” again and give him his reward. [NOTE: treats should be subtracted from the normal daily kibble ration so as not to gain weight during crate rest. To dogs the size of the treat matters not. ] wholedogtraining.com/images/stories/Are_all_dogs_trainable.pdf-- At night, try placing the crate on a sturdy bedside table to sleep next to you. -- During the day try the coffee table or the dinning room table so there will be a view out a window and a better perspective on what is going on in the house from a high. -- Make the crate or ex-pen more cozy by draping a blanket over part of the top. dodgerslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/blanketTOP150.jpg ** - Most dogs need some 16-18 hours of sleep per day, people sleep 8-9 hours day. What are they doing in the crate? Laying around and sleeping! Don't give into the temptation to start a treat routine to combat non-existent boredom. What you CAN do is soak his kibble in broth and freeze each of his normal meal kibble portion into a Kong so he has a job... working for his food -- Provide a lick mat in the recovery suite. Freeze with a small ant of soaked and mushed up kibble, a slight slather of canned dog food or other lo-cal smear, as a very tiny treat but one that will take a lot of time to consume. Use as long as your dog is not exceeding the requirement of little neck/back movement during the recovery rest period www.amazon.com/s?k=lick+mat+for+dogs&hvadid=78202818358910&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_3b30nygjvi_ePHYSICAL THERAPY Which of these exercises for paralyzed legs did your surgeon direct for you to do at home until it is time for underwater treadmill at a rehab clinic? Appropriate physical therapy at home
can help maintain those muscles with lost nerve connection and keep the joints flexible. Post-op PT for the paralyzed IVDD dog:
Look forward to hearing how things are going for Scooter and your own back.
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Post by Martha & Scooter on Apr 9, 2022 9:54:36 GMT -7
Thank you! I ordered a stool for pickup today! We haven't needed to express his poop - it seems to happen soon after breakfast, somewhat predictable. Thankfully, it hasn't been too messy thus far.
PT The discharge instructions said to do the following PT: "While sitting or standing, slowly move his limbs in a natural walking motion similar to taking a step. The movement should be slow (one "step" over the course of 5 seconds) and can be done for up to 5 minutes 3-4 times a day." I've had to do my best to interpret this correctly, did not receive any visual demonstration.
Additional question: Will my dog ever be able to sit on the couch with us or sleep in our beds again? He was pretty upset last night when we were watching a movie. He'd normally lie next to a family member.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 9, 2022 10:42:29 GMT -7
Martha, do be sure tocheck out the "post-op PT" video in my last post. A physical therapist demonstrated for the Dodgerslist community how to do those slow walking motions with the back legs. Once Scooter has graduated from post-op rest in 4 or 6 weeks, we'll have a lot of information to help you transition him back to family life and activity. Let you mind imagine the possibilities if per chance his back legs would still need more time to regain function, he could still join you on the couch! Take a look at my doxie with paralyzed legs learning to go down a ramp from my recliner. I'd pick him up to join me. But whenever he had a mind to check out the kitchen for food or investigate a sound he heard at the door, he could go down the ramp by himself. For right now, how about putting his wire crate on a sturdy coffee table. Pull the table right up close to the couch. This way you can feel him through the wires and be close together. The crate provides the safety so he can't dart away unexpectedly. And the crate provide good support for his back. Never sloping into a person's body as would happen on couch cushions.
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Post by Martha & Scooter on Apr 21, 2022 9:22:11 GMT -7
Thank you!!
Scooter is now off of prednisone,
[MED LIST/HISTORY- Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 18 lbs 4.5 y.o Prednisone taper starts 4/9 StoPPED gabapentin 100mgs 3x/day STOPPED]
so he doesn't seem to need to urinate nearly as often. What would be a typical/appropriate schedule for bladder expression for a tween-sized dachshund that I should be doing?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Apr 21, 2022 13:25:19 GMT -7
Once you are confident in you ability to express, you will only need to express around as often as you used to take him out to relieve himself. If you are still not completely sure you are able to push out all the urine, do it more frequently than that. The goal is to get a steady stream and no wet bedding or peeing when lifted.
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Post by Martha & Scooter on Apr 23, 2022 9:00:41 GMT -7
Thanks! Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure! After we house trained him, we let him go outside on our patio "on demand" and didn't track whether he was out there to relieve himself or just to enjoy the scenery - he was so well house trained, we just didn't need to. [GRADUATION DAY approaching Wed April 27]
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Apr 23, 2022 13:00:48 GMT -7
To be on the safe side, try expressing every 3 hours or so. If Scooter stays dry, gradually increase the time between expressions. If he does not stay dry, express more frequently than every three hours. This type of schedule is only until you feel confident you are getting all the urine out during each expressing session.
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Post by Martha & Scooter on May 8, 2022 11:49:28 GMT -7
So, we had the post-op follow up with the neurologist. He is stable, but the neurologist was not encouraging about his chances at ever achieving spinal walking. I swear he wagged his tail twice when i took him outside to express his bladder, but she said it was likely only reflexes. I also swear he faintly wagged his tail when we returned home from going out to dinner, too. The vet said we could have a consult with PT, but that underwater treadmill was for dogs who could move their legs and that acupuncture and light were for pain management. Does this mean that PT would be a waste of time and money, or was she being too pessimistic? I'm not sure what to think.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on May 8, 2022 16:58:00 GMT -7
Martha has Scooter now been released from post-op rest of 4 or 6 weeks? If yes, release, then we have lots of ideas to share with you for gradually introducing him back to family life and activity. NEURO FUNCTIONS When observing for neuro function exclude any tail/leg movement during potty time as those are likely reflexes. For us humans to be able to distinguish between reflex and brain directed, we have to see some sort of head level involvement with the tail, with a limb or with release of urine so we know the movement was done with purposeful thinking. --- Sniff (head level nose) on an old pee spot, then release of urine would be brain directed. --- Hear (head level ear) you doing some happy talk and then tail wags is brain directed. Tail movement during potty time can often be a reflex --- Itchy sensation at neck and then tries to scratch would be purposeful movement. Tickling paws, etc can cause reflex leg movements of pushing in or out. ORDER OF NERVE HEALING Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. __ Deep Pain Sensation (DPS): the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly idenfiy neuro function. 2. __ Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. __ Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. __ Leg Movement, and then __ ability to move up into a standing position, and then __ wobbly walking. 5. __ Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the paw. 6. __ Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. LEARN MORE: dodgerslist.com/2021/02/06/nerve-healing-after-disc-episode/While the neuro may have told you he did not find DPS at the appt, there is still a chance nerves can still heal. You or your normal vet will not likely be able to correctly identify DPS. However anyone can identify a happy wag (when you specifically do some happy talk to Scooter) when the tail wag neuro function comes back. It is still early in the nerve healing department. It will be Scooter's body and time that tells the answer about mobility.
Ortho surgeon Andy Torrington BVMS CertSAO MRCVS explains why the need for patience with nerve healing:
Dr. Isaacs, ACVIM (Neurology) explains why to have patience with nerve healing: In the meantime carry on with life. That is what Scooter is gonna do!
Cart dogs enjoy it all: swimming with family, digging holes in the garden, running with pals while waiting on more nerve repair to take place. dodgerslist.com/2020/06/06/wheelchairs/
Underwater treadmill makes is easy when nerve function is very weak. At the point you get happy tail wags, I'd check into water treadmill.
HOWEVER if you are looking for an exercise alternative and it is in the budget, water treadmill could be a great over all body exercise. OR you could do water exercises at home. Again we have so many ideas to share when we learn post-op rest is over.
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Post by Martha & Scooter on May 8, 2022 18:08:33 GMT -7
Thanks! He's at the 5 1/2 week mark post-op and released from post-op rest.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on May 9, 2022 9:25:58 GMT -7
Martha, congratulations on Scooter's graduation from post-op rest! Determine how you are going to ease back into more normal activity at graduation from weeks of rest. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Not free reign of the house and yard immediately! LOL Scooter's mucles are soft and out of shape after the rest period. Gradually build up his muscles and lungs. Take a look at our information. Gradually building your dog's muscles over a month's time will have your dog safely running and having fun again! WHEN to think about a cart: It takes about two weeks for the custom sizing and building of a wheelchair. You could decide to wait a few more weeks to while you are building up Scooter's stamina to see if money is better spent on underwater treadmill or a cart. If you see signs of a happy tail wag, go the route of under water treadmill. IF not signs of a happy wag, then while Scooter is waiting on more nerve repair to happen, a cart will give him back freedom of mobility. dodgerslist.com/2020/06/06/wheelchairs/SAMPLE SCHEDULE to build up Scooter's stamina. Here is a sample schedule to safely and slowly introduce your dog back to family life and physical activity: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly/?highlight=sample%20schedulePROTECTION for the back Ramps for furniture and over outdoor steps/stairs. 1) Make your home back friendly -- with ramps instead of stairs for going down furniture and outdoor steps.
-- training how to go down a ramp from a chair/couch.
-- Many ideas to keep them safe in your home. Some for now and others for the point when he can walk: dodgerslist.com/2020/07/09/home-protect-ivdd-backs GARMENTS TO PROTECT You will want to consider how you will prevent rug burns from scooting in the house. Here are some sew and no-sew options: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/13/garment-skin-uti-protection/ PT THERAPY AT CLINIC or HOME Safety first. You should always consult with a veterinarian before starting any exercise program with your dog. For example, although senior dogs need to stay limber, severe arthritis might make certain movements inappropriate. Likely for young 4.5 y.o. Scooter, vet will say he's healthy to begin a slow and gradual exercise program, but always good to check as we may not know all of Scooter's health history. - Water therapy: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/28/surgery-dog-water-therapy - Continue home daily massage and range of motion to keep joints flexible and muscle circulation up while waiting on nerves to self repair.
- Strengthening core muscles. Core exercises don't require specialized equipment. You may need a partner to help you with sling at hind end with some and some Scooter would obviously not be ready for. Here are some exercises you can do at home: 5 exercises: totofit.com/five-basic-exercises-essential-to-building-core-strength/HAPPY DAYS NOW and AHEAD Enjoy fun activities with summer approaching. -- OUTDOORS Nose work is a safe and fun for IVDD dogs. Serve your dog’s dinner outside on the lawn. Scatter kibble in the grass. Why? Because dogs need opportunities to do what is natural for them. Hunting relies on nose work, problem solving and body agility and it is just plain fun! Scatter of few kibbles in a saucer of water! INDOORS Hide some kibble on lower bookshelf, behind the leg of a chair. ADAPT in and outs to the deck A bit a scrap linoleum from local rug/floor store some screen door material, a spring curtain rod and a length of chain can provide your dog ability to go in and out to the deck on his own. See it in action in this video. May we turn the tables and ask YOU for help? Did you know there are less than a handful who volunteer daily to help dogs and their owners? We need helping hands from other Forum members in educating. Education about disc disease is our number one mission! We invite you to hop on to our educational bandwagon team. Too many dogs are put to sleep because owners lack education about IVDD treatment. STRICT crate rest and proper medication have helped many dogs recover. We depend on all members to pay it forward for the help they have received with their dog by helping us educate! Pick what suits you....
We depend on you. Here are some ways to help.. -- Please celebrate Scooter's graduation! Add a graduation photo and a short caption to our Gallery to give other members inspiration about your IVDD Survivor! dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/2262/add-dog-dodgerslist-photo-gallery-- "Share" our FB posts www.facebook.com/Dodgerslist-- When in conversation at the grocery store line or wherever you may meet breeds most prone to IVDD (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas, Frenchies) give out our free little wallet cards. Hand carry our literature and print out our letter of introduction for your vet. Today, [ ►ORDER BROCHURES, it's free!◀︎] for your vet and wallet -- Would you consider helping another trying to make decisions about surgery? We have a directory where you can share surgical info. Here is where you can share your dog's info: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/13/member-reported-surgery-costs-recommendationsState: Hospital: Address: Cost: Date of surgery: What was included in cost (MRI?, days stay, ER? PT? meds for home, sling, etc.) Comments: Don't be a stranger! Stop in periodically. We really do love to hear how your dog is doing. We'd love a short video clip to see Scooter in action at home, at PT and living & loving life in spite of IVDD! if you see a new member in a tough spot, give them hope. A brief paragraph about your dog can be insanely supportive and inspiring in a time of need!
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Post by Martha & Scooter on Aug 19, 2022 8:38:41 GMT -7
[Original subject line: PT to reach goal of spinal walking - how long to keep trying ]
Our little guy, who had surgery for IVDD Stage V around the first week of April, has had 16 PT sessions over the course of 8 weeks. We had to take a break due to summer travel and family obligations. Now that we're settling back in to our normal routines, we're discussing what to do at this point.
Obviously this is a costly endeavor, but, at the same time, we would hate to deprive him of the opportunity to regain this ability. Towards the end of his last sessions, he did take two steps on land (water treadmill with water mostly drained).
We are not poor, but also are behind on saving for retirement and kids' college funds, so this is not an easy call.
I'd be grateful to hear of any anecdotes of situations like his - how long did you continue PT for your little guy or gal and what should we be asking the PT or neurologist?
Thanks for any thoughts or feedback!
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Post by Shannon & Beans on Aug 19, 2022 9:53:09 GMT -7
I fostered a dog with Grade 5 disease once who regained the ability to walk (spinal walking) spontaneously. He did go through PT well before he started walking, I think it was 12 weeks, 2x weekly if I remember correctly. But he didn't walk then, it took another 2 years before he walked. Boy, once he started though, you couldn't stop him for anything! He came to us paralyzed, no treatment was given before we got him in our care and the disc had calcified in it's extruded position so surgery wasn't an option for him. What I learned from fostering him is there is always hope.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 19, 2022 10:36:01 GMT -7
Martha, it is dogs who have no deep pain sensation (DPS) who can possibly learn to spinal walk.
Have you had specifically only a neuro or an ortho specialist identify if Scooter currently has DPS?
Another way for your local vet or you to know if DPS has come bank without error is testing if he can do a happy tail wag when you SPECIFICALLY do some happy talk to him or show him a tummy treat.
Once we have from you his current neuro status about DPS or ability to do a happy tail wag, then we can best offer you ideas for PT.
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Post by Martha & Scooter on Aug 20, 2022 5:42:19 GMT -7
It's been a while since the neurologist evaluated him, maybe it was May(?) and he had no DPS at that time. Before that appointment, we believe we saw a happy wag, and we do when he sees us after we return home, but that's the only time he obviously wags it as a show of emotion.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 20, 2022 10:05:31 GMT -7
Martha, by definition, then Scooter would have to first have DPS to be able to have the next neuro function to return— his brain can send a message down the spinal cord to cause the happy wag!! Thank you for sharing that valuable piece of information. So it is very likely Scooter's brain DID send a message re: the next neuro function to return: message traveled to his legs to take those couple of footsteps in the very low water level in the treadmill. At home PT ideas. Your water treadmill people may be able to offer you additional ideas for at home. --- Buy cheap cut of meat or chicken when on sale as really high value treats. Cook, cut into tiny treats and freeze to use as needed each day. --- Do all PT where there are no other distractions of kids or other dogs. --- Do PT slowly so that steps are deliberate- helps to re-train the nerves and muscles to work together in a more normal gait pattern. --- Surface with good traction such as carpet or use of a Yoga mat or rug runners ---reward always for walking and never ever when dragging. --- Do therapy at meal times. Feed dinner a few kibbles at a time, for stands, sits. Scatter some kibbles on a non-slippery floor and use sling if wobbly walking to get his food. --- reward for pushing up from a sit to a stand. ---Use sticks, broom, pvc pipes spaced out on good traction carpet. Dog then will learn to lift paws as they walk SLOWLY over each one. --- Single leg balance for the weaker leg. While standing, lift the stronger leg off the ground for a few seconds-this will force bearing weight on the weaker leg. Lower and repeat with the opposite side leg. --- Outdoors on leash/harness and if needed a sling. Walk across a gentle slope, walk up and down the slope. Walk on different textures...low grass, higher grass, on sand. ---At home water therapy: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/28/surgery-dog-water-therapy/
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Post by Martha & Scooter on Aug 22, 2022 14:46:03 GMT -7
Thank you, this is great!
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