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Post by greendaisy on Aug 29, 2013 14:35:26 GMT -7
My wife and I just got punched in the gut last night by IVDD. It was painful to see our usually playful and rambunctious mini Dachshund Daisy acting completely incapacitated. We went to bed knowing that she was not all right. Thank goodness for my wife's motherly instincts. She decided to bring Daisy to the emergency vet at ten pm . After receiving a shot of morphine and midazolam. Daisy and my wife returned home at two am to try and rest. Daisy rested well and was still some what out of it when we had to leave this morning. She was placed in her crate while we were gone per vets instructions. Upon our arrival home my wife let her out only to be shocked to see that her hind legs were completely useless. We immediately went to our vet and she was given a dose of steroids. Daisy is now in the care of the vet and we are waiting to hear how she is doing. Surgery is not an option for us at this time. We are very encouraged after finding this website that she does have more than two options. Thank you for all the information and testimonies. My mind is numb at this time and so are our emotions. I will try to follow up with more information. IVDD and forums are all so new to me and have been very helpful to us as we attempt to navigate through this process.
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Sabrina
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Post by Sabrina on Aug 29, 2013 16:05:24 GMT -7
Hi there - I'm Sabrina. What is your name? I am so sorry to hear that your Daisy has IVDD. When my Charley was first diagnosed I was just a wreck - I would still be a wreck if it weren't for all the knowledge and support I've gained from Dodger's List! If you haven't already, take a look at this page: YES, Your Dog CAN Have a Great Quality of Life! - www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmYou may have already seen these pages, but here are some good links to help you and your wife get up to speed about IVDD: Shortcut through IVDD - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/IVDDcourse/index.html^ This is a slide show so keep clicking "next" to view all the slides Overview: Healing during a disc episode - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmINDEX to Overview: Phases of healing - www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmWhen my Charley was diagnosed, I had to read, re-read, and read some more before things started falling into place in my addled brain! Also, Dodgerslist has a great DVD on IVDD available for $3 (shipping included): www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htmThis is very helpful not only for your own education, but also to show to friends/family/pet-sitters, etc. For dogs who are treated "conservatively" (that is, they don't have surgery), a full 8wks of 100% Strict Crate Rest is advocated. The reason for the full 8wks is so that enough scar tissue can develop to protect the disc from further damage: Conservative treatment for disc disease (IVDD) - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/conservative.htmCrate Rest Recovery Process - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmClark's helpful supplies for crate rest - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htmWhen Daisy is able to come home, here are some Recommended disc disease (IVDD) questions upon discharge - www.dodgerslist.com/literature/dischargequestions.htmPlease let us know when you hear from your vet. We are here to help and support you as you help your Daisy. ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina
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Post by greendaisy on Aug 29, 2013 19:08:05 GMT -7
Hi Sabrina - Wow. You are amazing and so kind with such a speedy reply to our concerns! We have reviewed several of the items you have provided already and are looking forward to the additional sites and materials to further understand Daisy's situation.
Our family vet is actually taking Daisy home with him and his wife tonight to observe in case of further regression which while very kind of them to do, is distressing detail to be aware of. Through an x-ray today, the vet determined 4 calcified discs in Daisy. He would like us to see a neurological vet, (assuming tomorrow), to assist in further assessing appropriate treatment dependent upon her current status at that time, his/her expertise in this area, and the basic folks known to us that Daisy has presented thus far.
We are overwhelmed and fatigued at the moment and will be making a list of notes and concerns when it is time for further discussion. Again, we truly appreciate your thoughtfulness and assistance. As a lifetime lover of "big" dogs, I never new my heart could have been so completely won over by an 11 pound mini, pie-bald, and wire-haired Dachshund.
We will provide an update on Daisy's condition and next steps as soon as known to us.
Gratefully,
Anne and John
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 29, 2013 19:38:59 GMT -7
John, reading is going to be the single best thing you can do besides 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks. Not all vets can know ever disease known to birds, snakes, cows, dogs, cats. But you certainly can get up to speed quickly on one disease in order to jump in to the position of being the head of Daisy's health care team. Conservative treatment is not rocket science, but without understanding all the phases of healing and how they happen an how long it can take, mistakes can be made that would jeopardize Daisy. For a full picture on what you are dealing with, the link Sabrina gave you is very helpful: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmLast night if the ER vet had an inkling they were dealing with a disc problem, an anti-inflammatory should have been given at that time. Instead she was given only pain meds and a pretty powerful one Midazolam which is normally used in a hospital setting so the the dog can be closely monitored. We ask that all owners read and know each drug their dog is on.. you can help when you are aware. Xrays are used to rule out other disease that can mimic a disc problem (tumors, fracture, infection). What is the exact name of the steroid your local DVM vet is giving. Is it a rather large IV dose. What med is he using to protect the stomach lining and the rest of the GI tract? The usual is famotdine (Pepcid AC). What meds are being given to make sure Daisy is not in pain. You can learn the ones most often prescribed by checking out these two pages:http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm and a vet's directory to learn more detail for each med. www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlThe reasons if you are not doing surgery to visit a neuro is your vet does not feel comfortable in treating a disc episode, so you are consulting with a neuro to get the right meds on board to keep her pain free while the steroid is getting the swelling down. During the time on the anti-inflammatory the pain meds may need to be adjusted so that there is no pain surfacing dose to dose of pain relief medications. Pain deters healing. Often it takes being at the anti-inflammatory dose of the steroid prednisone (5mg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. When the vet guesses swelling might be gone there will be a taper. The dose is lowered to less than the anti-inflammatory dose your job at home would be to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for any hint of pain. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on Pred needed. When you can, please fill us in so we can be of more support: -- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? -- Currently can your dog move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? -- Is the vet finding wet bedding or leaks on them when lifted up? Meaning there has been loss of bladder control and the need for you to manually learn how to express the bladder. -- Eating and drinking OK? -- Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood? Do know it is in the cards for Daisy to get back to enjoying family life after doing all 8 weeks of crate rest. We look forward to leaning more about Daisy with the answers to your questions.
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Post by greendaisy on Aug 29, 2013 20:33:39 GMT -7
We just received a call from our vet. She now has no deep pain sensation in her hind quarters. She can no longer move her back legs and she can't control her bladder. She is on prednisone and is comfortable, don't know the dose.
I appreciate your concern about our vet's knowledge in this subject area. He has treated many doxies over the past 35 years and has great connections at the Univ. of Minnesota Animal Hospital where we live. I think his suggestion of us meeting with a neurological vet there was to get another set of eyes and exact expertise in this area for our satisfaction, so you are correct in your assumption but I also think that he wanted us to hear about expectations and experiences from someone whose focus is on this type of issue.
Do you have any data/statistics on the results of dogs recovering from this deep pain issue? Our vet has shared, (and it seems skewed based on other information found on this site), that given Daisy's current position, both surgery and/or medical management would yield only a 5% total recovery at this point. Is it difficult to express a bladder and what is the standard frequency for this? We both work full time and expressing a bladder on a regular basis does not sound like a realistic possibility. Our concern now is more one of Daisy's quality of life.
We can keep Daisy at the vet over the weekend as we are all hoping to see some improvement but we'll have to make some important decisions shortly.
Would love to share more but I am running on 3 hours of sleep from last night. Will check back in later. Thanks much.
Anne and John
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 29, 2013 20:59:35 GMT -7
There are NO important decision to make shortly regarding quality of life for Daisy. It is people and even some uneducated vets who have hang ups about handicaps that dogs simply do not think about.
It is in the cards for Daisy to be back fully enjoying life after crate rest whether that be with the assist of a wheelchair while waiting on more nerve repairs to take place.
During crate rest the focus is mainly on the disc healing. Nerve function return may or may not happen that soon. Nerves are the slowest part of the body to repair...think in terms of months and we have even had many close to a year out.
Please put euthanasia out of your mind and give Daisy her deserved opportunity to heal and get back with her family and the things she loves to do. Here at Dodgerslist we do not give up on our dogs. My Clark has been paralyzed since 2007... yes things are different... it is just the new normal now.
We have working people who express their dog. Once off all meds expressing can easily go to every 6-8 hours. so lets take things one step at a time.
Daisy needs to come home on the steroid, a stomach protector (Pepcid AC) which she should be on at the vet, and pain medication(s).
A good nights sleep and you will be better able to clearly deal with helping Daisy heal. We are here to support you!
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Aug 30, 2013 10:01:13 GMT -7
Hi, my name is Maureen. Please remember as you think about your future with Daisy that each dog recovers at a different rate and to a different degree. Nobody can predict how much function a dog will regain, not even a surgeon. Stevie was given the surgery or euthanasia option by the specialists too - I was fortunate enough to have the background to call bulldoody on that - and she walks, she is a bit wobbly, but she walks There is a great DVD available - that you might want to pick up, it's loaded with great information. Also, Dodgerslist has a great DVD on IVDD available for $3 (shipping included): www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htmThis is very helpful not only for your own education, but also to show to friends/family/pet-sitters, etc. Keeping your Daisy in thought and prayer.
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Post by greendaisy on Aug 30, 2013 13:29:17 GMT -7
Hi Paula - We're back. We are going to bring Daisy home and start medical management with a crate. We are going back to the vet in an hour to learn how to express daisy's bladder and if successful, will be bringing her home. We love Daisy, she is only 4, and all of the success stories on this site have given us hope with the clear understanding that we will have somewhat of a lifestyle change and a "new normal".
Our vet thinks one week of steroids is sufficient but that seems out of line with what we have been reading on this website. Recommendations?
Anne and John
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Sabrina
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Post by Sabrina on Aug 30, 2013 16:04:44 GMT -7
Hi Anne and John! I hope the expressing lesson was a success and you can bring Daisy home! I've not had to express, but I hear it can be tricky. Here's a page of additional help with expressing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmMy vet tapered Charley's steroid after one week. Charley's pain returned so he needed another week before we could taper successfully. So if Daisy is not in pain then after a week on the steroid a taper of the steroid is the only way to tell if the swelling/inflammation is controlled. This sums it up: "Often it takes being at the anti-inflammatory for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. Steroids must be tapered and the lowered dose is less than an anti-inflammatory dose. Your vet will try a taper to test the waters regarding inflammation/swelling. Your job at home is to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain and giving feedback to the vet. Pain meds would also be backed off or stopped for a clearer picture. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on the anti-inflammatory needed." Daisy is so lucky to have folks like you who commit to educating yourselves for her sake! ))Hugs!(( - Sabrina
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Post by greendaisy on Aug 31, 2013 8:29:47 GMT -7
Hi Sabrina and all - Thanks again for you kind responses. Unfortunately Daisy's bladder was not full yesterday afternoon so we scheduled some time this morning for John, our son and I to go and give a try on a full morning bladder. Our vet was very patient with us and gave us some visuals with a water balloon and a model of a skeletal pelvic display to assist. Our problem is that at 11 pounds, Daisy is lean and the bladder is small and kind of hanging out back in her pelvic area. It certainly wasn't as easy as those great videos Paula has put out on the site for all of us. Both John and I attempted and although we got her to "dribble" we were not able to bring a steady stream of urine so given the holiday weekend, our vet suggested we leave her at the kennel and schedule a morning and an afternoon appointment to try this again. Assuming we are successful, we will bring Daisy home on Tuesday.Daisy is currently taking Prednisone for swelling, Mertazapen for pain, and Gabapentin to stimulate appetite. She was excited to see us, gave lots of licks, and the boys even coaxed some nice howls out of her. We are still feeling overwhelmed and while our vet and the tech's have been very supportive, I suspect skepticism on their part that this will work since Daisy is his only patient at this time with this level of paralysis. We are excited to make Daisy a poster-child of success but we know we have uncharted territory and work ahead of us to make that happen. We are going to use the rest of our time before we bring her home to reflect on these resent events, continue to prepare ourselves mentally for what lies ahead, and pray that we will have the strength and ability to get through these next few months as successfully as possible. Anne and John
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 31, 2013 8:42:55 GMT -7
John, kudos for reading and understanding Daisy just needs a chance to heal…heal at home with conservative treatment! How are you doing with expressing? Does she stay dry in between times. While on steroids you may need to express every 2-3 hours as she will be drinking more. Don't hesitate to go back for another hands on top of your hands expressing lesson if you need it. That is how most of us have learned…expressing is just a practice thing which you will "get" after a weeks worth of expressing or maybe sooner if you are a fast learner. Let us know how things are going in that department. There are really wonderful tips in making crate rest go smoother…getting the bedding made up to make laundry time easier plus more great ideas: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htmThe vet will guess when he thinks all the swelling might be gone and call for a taper to test the waters. If on the taper there is pain, then he knows to extend the use of pred a bit longer. - Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? Do you have the must-have stomach protector now on board: 5mg Pepcid AC 30 mins before each dose of Pred? -- Currently can Daisy move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk?
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Aug 31, 2013 9:09:13 GMT -7
Good for you for not giving up! Once you get the hang of expressing, you'll wonder why it was so hard (honest!) Looking forward to hearing that you have your sweet girl home with you
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 31, 2013 10:27:23 GMT -7
John, the Forum went quirky as I posted a reply to you and all was lost. So here is the short version. Lack of appetite is likely due to prednisone. Your vet is not protecting the GI tract. Advocate strongly that over this weekend Pepcid AC (famotidine) be on board. 5mg Pecid ac 30 mins before Pred. IF Daisy has not been eating and there has been vomit, then VERY strongly advocate for a 2nd to be added sucralfate. Dogs have died from not having their stomach protected when vets have not been proactive in stomach protection. In order to support a vet's treatment and meds, you need to know their thinking. So a la Tnomas Jefferson "question with boldness" even your vet. If you did not get handout for each Rx, then Google and do your reading. Mertazapen- has Daisy been rambunctious in her crate. Is she not eating well, vomit? Is that the reason for using this antidepressant? www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=2552Prednisone and gabpentin: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlWe are concerned about the Mertazapen and if it was for lack of appetite, as there is no Pepcid AC on board. Let us know.
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Post by jochs311 on Aug 31, 2013 19:56:24 GMT -7
Hi John. My name is Jen. I'm so sorry you are going through An IVDD episode with Daisy. It's a tough thing to go through. The best thing you can do get her is 100% strict crate rest only out to potty. Also read as much as you can about IVDD. As long as you get her pain under control she can start the healing prosses. Expressing can be tough. As long as you can have your vet show you and learn how to do it its a relief when you get them to go. Our Tucker was paralyzed and we had to express for quite some time. Our vet said he would never walk again. Thanks to Dodgerslist he has now been out of crate rest for a month now and is wobbly walking and getting better at it. We have been doing accupuncture with Tucker too. It has helped a ton. I highly recommend it. It can be started at any time. Don't give up! She just needs time to heal. Sending healing thoughts and positive prayers you and Daisys way!
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Post by greendaisy on Aug 31, 2013 21:12:54 GMT -7
Hello to all of you who have been so helpful to us. Daisy is on Gabapentin 100mg for her lack of appetite, Mertazapen 3.75 mg, prednisone 5mg. The vet thinks it is a small enough dose that her stomach is fine.
I want to trust him but still am skeptical. It was wonderful to see her and to love her up today. The expressing was so so. Her bladder is so small and we are so new to this. The vet would like to keep her until he feels we know how to express correctly for fear of infection and harming her bladder. We will go back on Tuesday for two separate expresses and this will continue until we have figured it out. I appreciate the vets concern for the well being of Daisy and of our capabilities to express her. I am confident that Anne and I will figure this out along with our son. It was great to see her and Dodgerslist is right, Daisy is Daisy! she just can not use her back legs. I saw that today. She wants to move forward and to get back to her normal life, if you know what I mean. I have hope and we owe the next 6 - 8 weeks to Daisy. I can feel in my heart and I have some strong convictions that we will prevail!! Ooooh Yeah! Tomorrow we plan on setting up her crate and getting everything ready, we want to get her home soon. Thanks again to each and everyone of you who have acknowledge us. WOW!!! and we look forward to all of your replies. To answer some questions Daisy can not move her back legs and she cannot move her tail currently. she is not sic, She is doing quit well in my mind but she is not out of the woods yet. John
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 31, 2013 21:37:03 GMT -7
Hi John, Glad you are working with Daisy and helping her to heal. You will not regret this bonding time in helping your sweet dog to recover from an IVDD episode.. Gabapentin is an anti seizure drug that is effective for nerve pain. It has little to do with appetite. I know this, I have taken this drug and so has my dog Tyler for nerve pain. www.marvistavet.com/html/gabapentin.htmlMirtazapine is the appetite stimulant and helps with nausea. As Paula said this is an anti depressant that helps with anxiety.. From Marvista vet: Mirtazapine has strong anti-nauseal properties by acting on the neuroreceptors in the intestine and stomach that communicate with the vomit center of the brain. It also acts as a strong appetite stimulant. Obviously, a medication that addresses both nausea and appetite loss is boon to the treatment of many medical conditions. Apparently mirtazpine increases central nervous system serotonin but antagonizes serotonin-activity in the gastro-intestinal tract which is how it exerts the effects that we like. Mirtazapine comes in a regular formula as well as a rapid-dissolving formula. Either may be used in animals." The most common side effect of this medication is drowsiness. Mirtazapine decreases cortisol secretion by the adrenal glands but has not actually panned out as a treatment for Cushing’s Syndrome, where excess adrenal steroids are produced by the adrenal glands. Serotonin syndrome is a potential side effect should brain levels of serotonin get too high but this syndrome generally requires a combination of serotonin-increasing medications. Elevated heart rate, tremors/shivering, dilated pupils, difficulty breathing, elevated body temperature, or high blood pressure can all be signs of serotonin syndrome. Animals with serotonin syndrome sometimes demonstrate general hyperactivity. If there is any question that serotonin syndrome is occurring, cyproheptadine can be used as an antidote. At higher doses, mirtazapine may cause a drop in blood pressure or an elevation in heart rate. Keep in mind, this medication should NOT be used with Tramadol, a commonly used drug with IVDD, it can cause Serotonin symdrome.. I would still opt for Pepcid AC: lack of appetite is a symptom of GI distress and it isn't worth taking the chance with Daisy, she already has enough to deal with.. Preventing problems is far better than curing them after they happen.. Have seen it happen to other dogs here on Dodgerslist and some have died from stomach perforations, bleeding Ulcers ec. We harp on this but it's for a good reason. My Vet at Purdue Veterinary Teaching Hospital says that dogs with IVDD are predisposed to acid problems and she sent Tyler home with Pepcid AC, along with his other medications.. She is a proactive Vet.. It's great to trust your vet but it's also important to know the risks of each and every drug your dog takes..Advocating for proper care is the responsibility we take on when our pets need us to do so.. they can't talk, we have to do that for them.. You will prevail, expressing will get better with time and practice and Daisy will recover with the love of her family.. Prayers and healing vibes headed your way..
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Post by greendaisy on Sept 3, 2013 11:52:21 GMT -7
The visit to the vet this morning while uplifting to see Daisy after a few days of preparing for her return home, was discouraging. It seems that Daisy had taken a turn for the worse and now has lost sphincter control for both her bladder and rectum. The vet referred to it as full cell death and had watched her closely over the weekend because apparently this can travel forward and affect the respiratory system but since that would normally occur in 3-4 days and has not yet occurred, we may be out of the woods on that predicament for now. We visited with Daisy in the clinical clean room by the sink because she has been struggling with diarrhea and it is simply coming out of her freely at this time, and during our entire visit. While I have been praying that I would find the skill to appropriately express her, I merely had to push in the general area of her bladder and out it all came.
She has developed a skin problem on her back end from this, some sort of dermatitis and they are working to bring it under control with medication, I do not recall the names. It looks terrible. The vet feels she is in no more pain with the full paralysis and has weaned her off of the Pred and heavy pain meds....is this timing right or on queue? She was again looking happy to see us and normal from the middle section up and was again distressed to see us leaving.
We are believers and we have been sustained by prayer as we continue to look for the right answers. I see all of the hope and happy endings in these posts and while I am still hopeful for Daisy, it's becoming painfully clear that she likely will not have the recovery that many of the other dogs on these posts have come to know. All that said, I am feeling like I want her out of our vet's office and home with us to heal, in whatever form that may be.
We have another visit scheduled for this afternoon so John can have a shot at expressing too. The thought right now is that she'll stay at the vet until she develops a more solid stool, then we'll take her home. We appreciate and welcome your support and feedback.
Anne and John
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 3, 2013 16:09:53 GMT -7
John, if you are not able to confirm the vet has protected her GI tract with Pepcid AC (famotidine) since being under his care at the clinic and now she has loose stools, then get her out of that place today.
Bring a bottle of Pepcid Ac with you to the vet and give her a 5mg asap. This vet is not protecting her stomach that is why she has diarrhea. I would actually remove her from the clinic and bring her in for a 2nd opinion today and have the new vet get a 2nd stomach protector on board today…called sucralfate it's an Rx item. Dogs have died because some vets "didn't think" an anti-inflammatory would damage the GI tract even though it is well known in literature and on the package insert. We have seen this tragedy happen..owners need to step up and be strong advocates for their dogs just as you need to do today.
Have the new vet exam and discuss another disease that can sometimes follow at times when the spinal cord has become damaged. A knowledgeable vet will be able to assess for these signs with his examination. Your current vet is intimating he is thinking Myelomalacia.
The cause of M or how it progresses is still unknown and that is why research is going on at Purdue Univ. Myelomalacia can be easily confirmed by the new DVM with the following:
* about 3-4 days into recovery, they become painful. Within the first week, they are in a LOT of pain. * development of excruciating pain (more than just pain from the original disc herniation) • even the strongest pain meds do not help * acute disc extrusion with no deep pain sensation * loss of anal tone, the anus hangs open, (anal flaccidity) and areflexia (below normal or no reflexes) * loss of cutaneous trunci reflex at a level more cranial to a previous evaluation over a period of hours to days with or w/o surgery * development of fever (normal rectal temperature is 100.5 to 102.5 degrees Fahrenheit) * sudden twitching or jerking of the neck and/or head * loss of voice, hoarse bark * can't hold body up, can't hold head up * increased respiration/ labored breathing • hyper-esthesia (over-reaction to any touch sensation on body)
The prednisone may need to be stopped because due to lack of stomach protection, now her GI tract has become damaged. With proper TWO stomach protectors on board, pred might be able to be resumed if not all the swelling is down now.
As for taking her off of pain meds, were there any signs of pain that you observed: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy?
Dogs always heal MUCH better at home with family in familiar surroundings. And most likely she will receive loving, individual care that may not be available at an institution. Hospitals are just not the same as home.
No one can tell you just how much nerves can regenerate to bring back bladder and leg control…it is all up to mother nature and time. Keep hope alive for the body to be able to repair nerves and in the meantime you concentrate on the immediate needs: stomach protection and verify Daisy is not in any pain at all. Being paralyzed doesn't mean there will not be pain…please, PLEASE double check this on Daisy's behalf.
We are all anxiously awaiting news of what the new vet says this afternoon/evening.
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