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Post by Kelly & Charlie on Mar 13, 2021 19:54:04 GMT -7
Thank you SO much for all the calming tips. He’s currently sleeping nicely and we’ve kept voices, sounds, and lights low today with windows open for fresh air and a breeze.
I think the vet understood Charlie is very picky when he’s on his meds. We offer water and he gets very excited but when he smells the bowl and water he will quickly turn away. I mentioned to her he’s getting water in his food so perhaps between those two things she was not concerned it is a side effect.
As of now I see no reason to return to the ER vet. We only had it in mind if he was not able to be calmed due to constant panting over the weekend but right now things seem ok.
On the pain thing- I believe her thought was that getting him regularly taking and continuing the Carprofen could help to relieve any swelling instead of just introducing another pain med since she already upped the Gabapentin.
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 20 lbs. 6 y.o. Vetprofen (carprofen) as of 2/25: 25mg 2x/day for 5 days; 3/2 stop bloody diarrhea as of 3/10: 25mgs 1x/day for couple of days; 3/15? /14? stop test gabapentin 200mg 3x/day methocarbamol 250mg 3x/day Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day]
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 13, 2021 22:16:42 GMT -7
Kelly, hope to hear when the stop test of Vetprofen and the stop of the two pain meds will be implemented.
Pain meds don't work on swelling they provide comfort from pain.
Vetprofen can take 7-30 days to resolve painful swelling. All vets must take a guess at how long to try a course and then do a stop test along with stopping pain meds. This give the most accurate assessment so a dog does not stay on a NSAID any point past the benefit of all swelling gone.
Rule of thumb on the stop test: pain = swelling = another Vetrprofen course, pain meds and Pepcid AC no pain = swelling all gone = no meds at all needed. Just finish out the remainder of the 8 weeks of crate rest for the disc to heal.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on Apr 18, 2021 21:41:03 GMT -7
Hi, I just wanted to thank you all so much for your help through the toughest days of Charlie’s relapse in February. He is hanging in there and he’s such a happy pup. We don’t need anything right now, but I just wanted to let you all know he’s doing ok, we’re all sleeping better and on a regular schedule again, and we are so grateful for the support. ☺️ Kelly
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 20 lbs. 6 y.o. Vetprofen (carprofen) as of 2/25: 25mg 2x/day for 5 days; 3/2 stop bloody diarrhea as of 3/10: 25mgs 1x/day for couple of days; 3/15? /14? stop test gabapentin 200mg 3x/day methocarbamol 250mg 3x/day Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day ]
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 19, 2021 5:17:56 GMT -7
Glad to hear that Charlie is doing OK, Kelly. He's still on strict crate rest, correct? Just a few days left. April 22 is graduation day.Is he still on any meds? Have you seen any further nerve healing since you last posted?Do take it very slowly once Charlie graduates from strict crate rest on 4/22. Charlie's muscle strength and stamina need to be very gradually built up again. Too much movement too soon and it would be difficult to tell whether any sign of pain is due to any disc problem or muscle pain. I found the schedule on this page to be very helpful after my Jeremy's crate rest. dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly/ corrected link: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendlyThe following information is for AFTER the full 8 weeks of crate rest are completed on 4/22:Make some home modifications so that you can reduce the stress on the spine in the future. No more stairs, ramps to slide down from furniture: Ramps: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/867/rampsFurniture blockers, etc.: dodgerslist.com/2020/07/09/home-protect-ivdd-backs/PT THERAPY AT CLINIC or HOME Water therapy: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/28/surgery-dog-water-therapyAt home daily massage and range of motion. Appropriate physical therapy can help maintain the muscles with lost nerve connection. Therapy keeps muscles in optimal condition while in wait to receive regenerating axon terminals. After 8 weeks to heal the disc, now safe to begin daily at home PT. Have some fun with your dog with back-friendly-fun activities! dodgerslist.om/2020/06/16/have-fun-nose-work/
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on Apr 19, 2021 17:56:11 GMT -7
We will probably continue the crate rest a little longer just because he has been through so much and had a couple rough periods. He has improved on the crate rest overall though, and we will certainly take it extremely slow. We are so careful with him and just want him to be happy.
We see his vet Thursday and will get more information on changing meds. He’s currently on 2 Gabapentin three times a day and Methocarbamol twice a day which we just successfully dropped from 3 times a day without muscle spasms starting. First time we tried to wean he had some spasms.
He seems to show good signs when he’s on the muscle relaxant less or when it’s wearing off. But I wouldn’t say we have noticed a ton of nerve healing. He still can’t pee or poop on his own, but he can hold it better which is great.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,884
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 19, 2021 21:07:12 GMT -7
There has not been a report of a disc relapse with pain or worse neuro diminishment that would demand more STRICT rest. It takes the disc time of 8 weeks to heal with graduation of Apr 22. Getting him started with program of caring for paralyzed legs, joints, retraining nerve/muscle connection is important IF, if when it is proved all spinal cord swelling is gone. Proof is when the anti-inflammatory Vetrprofen has stopped as well as all pain meds. -- Nerve healing might take much longer- several months or longer. -- Nerves do not need rest to self heal as a disc needs. -- When off of all meds and proof there is no pain, then Range of Motion (ROM) and massage is safe for the healed disc to be started. The requirement to graduate is to know for sure all pain is actually gone. The stop of gabapentin and methocarbamol give the proof. The last we heard was Vetprofen was maybe stopped on 3/15? Was Vetrprofen Rx'd after 3/15?NEURO STATUS. Can Charlie move is back legs at all? Such as to reposition himself in his recovery suite?
Have you seen him attempt to scratch his neck? Tell us what you observe about his back legs.
How often are you expressing his bladder? Does he stay dry in between sessions? Do you express for poop?: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/05/bladder-bowel-care/
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on Apr 20, 2021 5:59:36 GMT -7
Expressing bladder 3-4 times a day and yes he stays dry in between.
Vetprofen is not good for Charlie. We stopped it shortly after we tried it again, so 3/15 sounds right.
Back legs don’t do much anymore. His tail doesn’t wag. I think this episode ruined the progress we had made with his back legs previously. But obviously we understand nerves can take a long time to heal since we spent about a year dedicated to his rehab before this episode with continued progress. So we’ll stay hopeful. I think it will be clearer when he’s totally off the muscle relaxant because we have seen a slight tail wag and he peed once on his own when he was not on that medicine.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 20, 2021 7:17:36 GMT -7
Kelly, you've accomplished a milestone goal of being able to express well enough that Charlie stays dry in between expressing. That's great!
Please let us know what the vet says when you see him on Thursday. If the swelling has resolved, then there is no longer any need for meds but there's no way to know until all meds are stopped.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on Apr 23, 2021 18:36:36 GMT -7
[ Range of motion waits until off all meds and no pain showing]Charlie is doing well and his vet visit went well too! Our vet wants us to wean him off the muscle relaxant and hope for less muscle spasms this time. So we are moving to once a day ▼ Methocarbamol. She also suggested the Gabapentin may be a long term solution for him for any remaining nerve pain, but wants us to move to [▼Gabapentin] twice a day for that instead of three times a day. He’s definitely showing good signs [?] (in our view) of movement in his legs since dropping the muscle relaxant frequency. Things are good for now, and he seems happy. [Moderator's note: please do not edit 20 lbs. 6 y.o. Vetprofen (carprofen) as of 2/25: 25mg 2x/day for 5 days; 3/2 stop bloody diarrhea as of 3/10: 25mgs 1x/day for couple of days; 3/15 stop test gabapentin 200mg ▼2x/day methocarbamol 250mg ▼2x/day Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day STOPPED? ]
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Post by Jessica on Apr 24, 2021 9:59:25 GMT -7
I'm glad to hear Charlie is happy and the vet visit was positive. That's great news!
Did the vet say how long you should continue with the one time per day dose of methocarbamol and two times per day gabapentin? Do you have a stop date for either? You report improvement when on reduced methocarbamol, so hopefully he can be off of it soon and continue to feel well.
What signs are you seeing for movement in his legs? Please let us know what you observe as you decrease the frequency of Charlie's medications.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,884
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 25, 2021 7:29:31 GMT -7
Kelly, necessary passive range of motion/massage for the back legs, during the 8 weeks it takes the disc to heal, waits until off all meds and no pain is showing. This is why dragging out the pain meds reduction problematic for paralyzed legs and why we keep asking. Do contact your vet. Graduation day (was supposed to be April 22) is when active PT for the back legs could begin. Graduation ACTIVE PT waits until off all meds to give proof all painful spinal cord swelling is gone. Appropriate physical therapy can help maintain the muscles with lost nerve connection. Therapy keeps muscles in optimal condition while in wait to receive regenerating axon terminals.1) During conservative treatment, the very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage will be necessary for paralyzed legs once off all meds and no more signs of pain The information in the LIGHT GREEN columns pertain to a dog who can't walk while under conservative treatment AND off all meds: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/26/range-of-motion-massage/2) On graduation day, THEN active PT can begin for paralyzed legs. As Jessica asked, do let us know what you are now observing about about movement in back legs. We are wanting to know if it is reflex movement or actual brain directed movement. Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly idenfiy neuro function. 2. _?__Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. _?__ Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. _?__ Leg Movement, and then _?__ ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmHave you seen a happy tail wag?
When is the last time you have taken Charlie out to the grass for the "Sniff and Pee" test? The only way for humans to know if there is bladder control is with the “sniff and pee test.” Carry outdoors, set Charlie on an old pee spot to sniff. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. See if Charlie will release urine on the old urine area. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning. You should continue to do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on Apr 29, 2021 15:00:48 GMT -7
Hoping I remember to answer everything here...we’ve been pretty busy lately! We try the sniff and pee test probably every day unless we are having bad storms... giving him an opportunity to go before expressing his bladder. No luck so far with the exception of a tiny drop he did on his own a few days ago but could have been a fluke thing. But also no accidents lately either. We’ll see, but we are happy with where he is right now and we will not be disappointed if he doesn’t recover any farther, though we are obviously committed to his care!! (Please don’t misunderstand - we are just happy he is happy!!)Our vet said to taper meds slowly enough to notice if he is uncomfortable with the lesser dose. We will probably try to be off the ▼Methocarbamol completely in a week I would guess. We are doing two quarter tabs a day [?mgs each tab]. At first, he seemed confused about what I assume is increased feeling when we dropped his dosage. Now he seems very normal so we are in a good spot with this lesser dose! We’ve just switched to a new bedtime setup and I just started a new job, so in a couple days when he is used to the new schedule more, we will taper the Methocarbamol again and watch for any changes in his behavior. Slowly but surely we will get him off of it if all goes well. If not we will call our vet for another visit. (She comes to our house so it’s very easy) As for the gabapentin, as I hope I mentioned, our vet said it could be a long term solution for Charlie if he is having neuropathy or other symptoms, though we will slowly taper this too and see how it goes... [Moderator's note: please do not edit 20 lbs. 6 y.o. Vetprofen (carprofen) as of 2/25: 25mg 2x/day for 5 days; 3/2 stop bloody diarrhea as of 3/10: 25mgs 1x/day for couple of days; 3/15 stop test gabapentin 200mg ▼2x/day methocarbamol ?mg ▼1x/day Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day STOPPED? ]We are doing passive range of motion. Our vet observed Charlie’s back legs movement and believes he has deep pain sensation and has leg movement that is not just reflexes. Very rarely we see tail movement. Only when we take him out and do range of motion to engage his legs, on occasion he will do a slow half tail wag.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,884
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 29, 2021 17:50:15 GMT -7
Let us know how many mgs is each Methocarbamol tab. "doing two quarter tabs a day" ? ?When you lower gabapentin, please report: ?mg ea dose ?x/day
What is the expected last date of all pain meds?
Have you stopped Pepcid AC?
How wonderful to have a home visit vet!! Be very careful with Range of motion that is is very light and least aggressive movement to the back. It should not really start until off all meds and there is proof there is no more pain.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 7, 2021 6:02:27 GMT -7
The ▼Methocarbamol is 1/4 of a 250mg tab. We’re doing it right before bed only so once a day. Probably will stop on Saturday or Sunday because he’s gotten used to his new bed and is sleeping through the night again!!
Gabapentin is 2 100mg capsules twice a day. We will start to lessen that once we are off the Methocarbamol. Hoping to be off all meds, or on lowest dose of Gabapentin possible, by the end of next week [5/15th ish]!!
We’re seeing more tiny tail wags and Charlie peed the smallest amount on his own yesterday! Good signs, and no signs of pain returning yet.
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 20 lbs. 6 y.o. Vetprofen (carprofen) as of 2/25: 25mg 2x/day for 5 days; 3/2 stop bloody diarrhea as of 3/10: 25mgs 1x/day for4 days; 3/15 stop test gabapentin 200mg 2x/day 5/15ish stop? methocarbamol 250mgs tab: ▼62.5mg ▼1x/day 5/15ish stop? Pepcid AC 10mg 2x/day STOPPED? ]
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Post by Jessica on May 7, 2021 9:56:20 GMT -7
Thank you for the great update, Kelly! I'm glad to hear Charlie continues to improve. Please let us know how he does as you stop the medications.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 13, 2021 9:33:34 GMT -7
We are a little behind on stopping meds but everything is going well so far. Charlie seems happy and we aren’t seeing any signs of pain at this point. No panting, he’s sleeping well, eating and drinking well. He’s starting to stand a little stronger when we place him on all fours, but he still cannot stand on his own. Seeing more tail wags here and there and occasionally he will pee a little on his own. He is making it more difficult to express his bladder again so that could be a good sign.
Last day of Methocarbamol (1/4 tab) was 5/9.
We stopped the Pepcid a long time ago.
We will start to drop the Gabapentin dosage this weekend now that we are more confident he doesn’t need the Methocarbamol. In the past it has taken a few days for pain symptoms to return to we try to be very cautious and slow on this part. But hoping we will be at 1 Gabapentin twice a day by the end of the weekend!
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 20 lbs. 6 y.o. Vetprofen (carprofen) as of 2/25: 25mg 2x/day for 5 days; 3/2 stop bloody diarrhea as of 3/10: 25mgs 1x/day for4 days; 3/15 stop test gabapentin 200mg 2x/day; 5/16: 100mg 1x/day
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 19, 2021 22:37:52 GMT -7
Well, not having as good of a time tapering the Gabapentin. Our vet did say she thought it might be a long term drug for Charlie. I guess I thought we could get him down to one capsule per day but we have not been successful. Tried it for three doses and that was enough time for him to start getting restless and a little panting here and there, so we are back to [▲gabapentin] two capsules twice a day as of tonight.
5/18 one capsule twice a day 5/19 one capsule in the morning, two at night
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 20 lbs. 6 y.o. Vetprofen as of 2/25: 25mg 2x/day for 5 days; 3/2 stop bloody diarrhea as of 3/10: 25mgs 1x/day for 4 days; 3/15 stop test gabapentin ▲200mg ▲2x/day ]
Not peeing on his own. Very minimal tail wags, really no change since my last post. I guess the few times we saw him pee on his own was a fluke but we will continue trying to give him the option to try.
We are kind of at a loss for what to do now. Just feeling hopeless a bit because last time he was able to recover and this time we aren’t getting there like before. Trying to count our blessings - he seems happy when he’s on his 2 gabas twice a day, no accidents anymore, he’s eating and drinking well and seems comfortable. Just wish we could taper his meds down and get him peeing on his own.
He’s also had a couple of overuse injuries or soreness in his front legs which is adding to our discouragement. First the left, now the right. So he is a one legged dog basically during these times. Our vet recommended front leg braces to help take the pressure off the joint so we may order those. Luckily both front legs have not been hurting him at the same time so far...
Has anyone tried CBD to calm their dogs? Or something else? Charlie is super attached to me and always tries to sit as close as possible and I just wonder if it might help him to calm down a bit.
Thank y’all for the support. We are doing our best over here but after a little more than a year of this unstable situation with Charlie I am starting to feel sad for him and wonder what we can do to make his life better. We thought we were so close to him partially walking again just three months ago after almost a year of multiple times per week laser therapy acupuncture and water rehab 😕 at this point we just want him to be stable and not in pain.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,884
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Post by PaulaM on May 20, 2021 8:22:42 GMT -7
Kelly, would a consultation with a neuro surgeon be possible? To discuss a surgery if it would be a financial consideration for your family. To discuss further medication treatment, long term? At this point, a consult with a neuro may give the best insight in how Charlie can enjoy a pain free life. There have been some cases where a dog did remain long term on a pain med or even an anti-inflammatory, similar to people who are able to enjoy life with a painful ailment with the help of a med. This happens when: -- the dog has been on an anti-inflammatory for 7-30 days to do all the work possible it could do to rid the body of inflamed spinal cord tissue. Vets protect the stomach with both Pepcid AC + Sucralfate when necessary. -- has completed 8 weeks of rest to allow the disc to heal The hope with conservative treatment is while the meds are working on swelling and pain meds are proving comfort, the body will be able to shrink back enough disc material so that it will no longer aggravate the spinal cord. -- At the end of 8 weeks the disc has formed good scar tissue. -- At the end of 8 weeks, the nerves still have much opportunity to heal. It could take many, many months to see how much very slow regenerating nerves can come back. The first nerve needed to repair is deep pain sensation, then other nerves functions could come back. -- At the end of 8 weeks, if off all meds and still pain, there have been a very few cases, a pain med would be needed on a long term basis. -- At the end of 8 weeks (April 22 graduation day), a wheelchair would be an option while waiting to see if nerves can repair. It would give Charlie a whole new huge lease on life. There are chairs that aid his front legs with less weight to support and the back legs can be safely off the ground when walking, running. With Charlie's front leg soreness, things could be more complicated. Therefore I would really recommend consulting with the experts at Eddie's wheels for a custom fitted chair for Charlie's needs. They are very easy to talk to in getting a feel which is the right chair for Charlie. You can learn about cart features to look for with an IVDD dog here: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/06/wheelchairs/A perfect summer day is when….. As Helen Keller says "When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us." This pup didn't waste a moment finding the other open door. He loves life and and enjoys every moment. It's not the manner in which you get from point A to B, it's that you CAN get there.
If Charlie has first regained deep pain sensation in the back legs, then that would bode well in time a potential to recover more neuro function. For owners and family vets, the first neuro function easily correctly identified first is the happy tail wag. 1. Deep Pain Sensation: the first neuro function to return. DPS is the critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about this very tricky to correctly idenfiy neuro function. 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmYou can read about CDB here. GRADUATiON Determine how you are going to ease back into more normal activity at graduation. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Not free riegn of the house and yard immediately! LOL Take a look at our information and then come up with a plan to gradually increase activity over about a month's time following the end of crate rest. Here is a sample schedule to slowly introduce your dog back to family life and physical activity: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/15/back-friendly/?highlight=sample%20scheduleLots more ideas and tips: dodgerslist.com/living-with-ivdd-tipsPT THERAPY AT CLINIC or HOME - Water therapy: dodgerslist.com/2020/05/28/surgery-dog-water-therapy - At home daily massage and range of motion. Appropriate physical therapy can help maintain the muscles with lost nerve connection. Therapy keeps muscles in optimal condition while in wait to receive regenerating axon terminals. - After conservative treatment of 8 weeks to heal the disc, now safe to begin daily at home PT for the back legs. You will want to consider how you will prevent rug burns from scooting. Here are some sew and no-sew options: dodgerslist.com/2020/06/13/garment-skin-uti-protection/ ** Please do continue to stop in and let us know how Charlie is getting on. Don't be a stranger, we really do LOVE updates to know what is working for Charlie and what is not. That would be a helpful thing to other pet parents.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 21, 2021 13:12:29 GMT -7
Hi, thank you for your response! We are not too concerned about the financial aspect but just about best quality of life for Charlie. His first surgery was not exactly a huge success in our opinion so we wouldn’t consider another surgery.
But your message and the video really did inspire me to try acupuncture and laser again this year. We have set up an appointment for this coming Tuesday with the same practice we used all last year, so hopefully that will bring him some comfort and perhaps even get his nerves and body responding more. It seemed to work wonders last year. 💜 We are also planning to get him front leg braces at dogleggs.com as recommended by our vet to take the pressure off his front ankle joints. She also suggested k9karts for dog wheelchair rental which we are considering before purchasing something custom. Charlie can be a hesitant pup so we are just not sure if he will love a wheel cart or not, so we think it might be worth renting first. Thank y’all again for the support in this difficult time!! Charlie is worth the care but sometimes we just don’t know where to turn so we are so appreciative of this website and all the resources.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 21, 2021 14:06:08 GMT -7
Even if you are not considering another surgery, a consult with a specialist should be helpful. The specialist will be experienced in the medical management of IVDD as well as surgery and may have suggestions on long term medication use if needed. Just let them know you are not considering surgery at this time.
Renting a wheelchair before purchasing is a good plan as it will give you a idea as to whether Charlie will be comfortable with it. Many dogs love their chairs, but not all.
What helped my dog the most after his IVDD episode, which left him paralyzed was water therapy on an underwater treadmill. I do not think he would have recovered nearly as well without it. I know you have tried water therapy before but you may want to consider it again after you feel Charlie has stabilized and is pain free.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 21, 2021 17:15:39 GMT -7
** Thank you so much for your response and the encouragement to try water therapy again. Even just sitting with him today I’m realizing his back legs are getting a tiny bit stronger and, his reflexes are there, and he seems to be very aware of his back legs like he was before. Perhaps we will get to a point where water therapy would be helpful again. We have a pool too so we can always just hold him carefully in his life jacket to see if his back legs kick like they used to, even when he couldn’t walk. Also - thank you for the info on seeing a specialist. To be honest, I didn’t even know you could see a specialist for a dog unless you were considering a surgical intervention. We will definitely keep it in mind and I’ll see if my vet knows anyone she recommends.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,884
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Post by PaulaM on May 22, 2021 7:49:46 GMT -7
Kelly, good to hear you feel the back legs are doing something. Take advantage of that reflex reaction at PT time to tickle the back paws and make those muscles fire for the push out you'll get! Even if you do not yet have confirmation from a specialist that deep pain sensation exists, nor one you could correctly identify (happy talk, then a happy wag), underwater treadmill might be something to consider upon graduation. Great exercise to keep the front legs strong and active with support of water. Of course you can do a similar thing at home with a kid's $10 wading pool. Playing in the water, capturing elusive tennis balls means lots of good exercise.
Take into consideration that the various brands of chairs could have a different feel to Charlie. How big the footprint is, how the weight of the yoke sits (some heavy, some weighted properly to be light touch), how heavy to pull, etc. Renting is only a test for that particular brand chair, not Charlie's acceptably for all wheelchairs. This discussion may help you to jot down wheelchair features important to you and Charlie when comparing the many brands on the market: eddieswheels.com/p/15/Wheelchair-Comparisons A cart is used several times a day, every day. Better to save up for a quality cart that is easy to use, acceptable to your dog, than to to waste precious dollars on one that sits in the closet.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 24, 2021 7:47:41 GMT -7
Thank you!! I will definitely check out more information on the carts.
We have been tickling his back paws multiple times per day this weekend and it’s been going well so far! He responds every time. We are also doing the exercise our PT taught last year which was to pinch his toes (lightly) to get the withdrawal reflex, and provide a little resistance, so he can increase his strength that way.
Hopefully tomorrow’s appointment goes well. At this point we’d feel much better if his front legs were more consistently not in pain, so perhaps the acupuncture will help with that.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,884
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Post by PaulaM on May 24, 2021 11:34:04 GMT -7
Kelly what reaction do you get with tickling in between toes? Do his legs get resistance with his push out as shown below:
Let us know what the vet says can help keep the front legs in comfort.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 24, 2021 14:38:33 GMT -7
Here’s a video, let me know if it doesn’t work for you! We are getting a good reaction, and we are hopeful it will soon translate to more stability when we place him in a standing position to express his bladder. Video: imgur.com/a/DEn1tXr
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,884
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Post by PaulaM on May 24, 2021 14:44:55 GMT -7
You are getting good reaction! Might want to look at video in my last post. See where one hand is gently on the back, while another hand does the tickling. This position allows for some resistance according to a rehab person.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 24, 2021 14:50:20 GMT -7
Yes! The video was very helpful to see the methods they’re using. Thank you for watching ours 🙏🏻 Charlie is a real trooper.
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 25, 2021 8:59:08 GMT -7
Our rehab vet said Charlie definitely has deep pain sensation. Our home vet also said the same thing about a month ago, so we are feeling pretty confident at this point about that. He is getting acupuncture and laser treatment right now in his whole spine and shoulders and front limbs too to help with the pressure on those front limbs, and they hope we can do 1-2 times per week for 4-6 weeks. They suggested a few herbal supplements: double PII which we used last year but I’ve heard some controversial things about it, Hindquarter Weakness or BGT - for forelimb muscle relaxation, Ellevet S/M gel caps for pain relief. We’re going to research and decide before the next Appt. Just wanted to give an update!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,884
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Post by PaulaM on May 25, 2021 10:48:08 GMT -7
Acupuncture and laser light therapy can be good therapies. Acupuncture and Laser for front leg discomfort and Laser to promote a photochemical reaction which increases cellular metabolism. This, in turn, expedites cell repair. Double PII containing aconite (Fu Zi) is difficult to find information on. --Chinese herbs are drugs. There is no manufacturing oversight for Chinese herbs. Not to say Chinese herbs in general could not be of benefit in various circumstances when used in a safe manner. --Nerves heal on their own in time to the degree possible. --What specifically would be expected to be repaired with this herb combo? Very good to hear you plan research! We do encourage to always google, read, study things your dog is or would take to be an aware pet parent. Ask questions on behalf of Charlie. Some Chinese herb combos may only have mild side effects and some some can interact with regulated FDA drugs. Chinese Herbs are composed of many herbs in one pill, meaning you will need to Google each one to familiarize yourself on what your dog is taking. --Medline herb directory: www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginformation.html--WebMD Vitamins & Supplements Center: www.webmd.com/vitamins/indexDr. Nancy Kay, DVM, ACVIM has hit it on the nail especially with IVDD. Each of us needs to be self educated so we can team up to work with our vets. "Gone are the days when you simply followed your vet's orders and asked few, if any questions. The vet is now a member of your dog's health-care team, and you get to be the team captain!" READ MORE: www.speakingforspot.com/PDF/Medical%20Advocacy%20101.pdf
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Post by Kelly & Charlie on May 25, 2021 11:32:40 GMT -7
Thank you! That is what we’d heard on the double PII so we aren’t thinking he will take it again. The other herb combo is supposed to help with relaxation which he could surely benefit from but again I’m hesitant on the Chinese supplements, and the final suggestion was a CBD product which I’m still researching.
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