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Post by heidimay on Aug 11, 2013 21:40:31 GMT -7
After the "accident" we had the IVDD surgery. She still has no deep pain feeling, no rear leg movements, no tail wagging, and no control over her bladder. We did our first acupuncture session on Friday (2 days ago). She is still in the crate rest phase. I am so confused... am I supposed to do physical therapy while on crate rest, or leave her be? We live pretty far out, and had to drive over 3 hours to find a surgeon, so now we are pretty much on our own. Our "in town" vet told us euthanizing her was the best option, but I just could't do it!! After 3 weeks, and still no improvement from surgery, will acupuncture even help? I've noticed her leg twitch, but I think its an involuntary movement. I was shown how to express her bladder and thats it. I have no help, our local vet has no clue... and neither do I. ANY and ALL advice welcome. I have never felt so confused or alone. If I am not taking care of her, I am literally crying my eyes out!! Is she as depressed as I am?
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Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Aug 11, 2013 23:28:10 GMT -7
Hi! My name is Stevie, and I totally understand your distress and depression. I felt precisely the same way you do 3 months ago. First and foremost, it is important for you to understand that you have done everything right up to this point. The local vet who said "euthanizing her was the best option" was totally wrong, and good for you for not listening! I don't know your cute dog's name, but as long as she is not in pain she is OK and no, she is not as depressed as you are. She is letting Mommy do all the worrying for her!
As for whether you are supposed to do physical therapy during crate rest, my surgeon recommended starting after 2 weeks, and after the sutures were removed. So it sounds like you started acupuncture right on time to me. Acupuncture can be very beneficial and don't forget it is very early days yet in your baby's recovery. Be sure to check with your surgeon to see what he or she recommends. I understand that you are not near the surgeon's office, but you can and should call them with any questions you have. Don't be afraid to call, I called every time my Cleopatra made a peep that didn't sound right. Most of the time, it was nothing, but I needed to be sure.
There are so many great people here who have gone through what you are going through right now and have come out the other side. I am sure the moderators will be along soon, and they can give you great advice and lots of information to read. In my experience, the more you learn the better and more confident you will feel. This website has a lot of information, I spent the first 5 days just reading and asking questions.
Are you doing OK with expressing her bladder? Also, is she on any medications? Remember that the recovery process is long and no 2 dogs recover in exactly the same way. You CAN do this!
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 12, 2013 6:25:54 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know how difficult it is. My name is Marjorie - what's yours? And what's your dog's name? Please know that your dog is still recuperating from the surgery and the nerves that have been damaged can take months or even a year to renew. As Stevie said, you're doing what's needed. Acupuncture can be very helpful in giving those nerves a jump start. Laser light therapy is good, too. And yes, you can do some physical therapy at this point. I would check with your vet by phone and run the exercises found at the following link by him to get his OK: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmWater therapy can be very helpful, too. You can do exercises in a small pool or right in the bathtub. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmAs Stevie asked above, please let us know how you're doing expressing her bladder. How often are you expressing and do you find wet bedding or leaks when you lift her up? Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? Is she still on any medication? Is she eating and drinking OK? There is a lot of helpful information contained on Dodgerslist website. Please familiarize yourself with the following articles: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htmPlease know that you are not alone in this. We're here to help you each step of the way. You did the right thing by having the surgery done. Your vet was terribly wrong to say that euthanasia was the best option. Your dog can have a good quality, happy life. Please try to stay positive and tell your little girl every day that she's getting better. |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Aug 12, 2013 6:44:20 GMT -7
Hi, my name is Maureen. I am so sorry that your surgeon left you just hanging in the wind with no information to help you. Stevie and Marjorie have given you some great information. You should call the Surgeons office and ask for help and clarification - write down any questions that you want the answers to. The post surgical swelling takes about 2 weeks to go down, and nerve tissue takes longer to heal, and each dog heals at their own pace How nerves heal - order of recovery Here is how nerves typically heal... in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run Dogs have a great quality of life as long as you love them - they don't care how they get around, whether on their own 4 feet or by doggie cart. Please don't despair - you are not alone anymore and we will do everything that we can to help you! Keeping you in thought and prayer  |
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Post by heidimay on Aug 12, 2013 21:08:36 GMT -7
First off sorry I did not introduce us. I am Danielle, and my sweet weenie is Heidi May. Thank you so much for all the advice. I have felt so depressed, and so alone. I don't know anybody else going through this, so I REALLY appreciate you all taking time to write me. She is still on her meds (tramadol, gabapentin, and valium). We went off them for 3 or 4 days. During that time she would not pee, and no one could make her. If she doesn't take her meds, I can NOT express her bladder. This has been a very challenging task for me. I try to do so every 4 hours. Sometimes I get some, other nothing. Seldom do I find "leakage", but it does happen. Usually when I try to express her bladder and get nothing. She eats a drinks pretty normal still. Although on her meds, today she seems stiff, and painful. Its not typical, but she has had a few days like this. The surgeon told us before we left the hospital that after 2 weeks she shouldn't have any more pain, yet she still is occasionally. It was like pulling teeth to get them to refill her meds. She is only 3, so this was very shocking and hard to accept. I knew dachshund dogs tend to have back problems, I was just expecting it around 10 years, not at only 3. At the 1st acupuncture appointment they did do some sort of "laser therapy". I was just too preoccupied trying to get her to lay still as she is "rambunctious", to ask too many questions. I just want her better. By the way, I never knew you could cry so much over a dog... I think she has become more of a child to me than a dog. Most of my friends think I am crazy, and they all agree with the vet that I should have put her down. "Its crazy for you to take out 3 loans, put up your car for collateral, and spend $4000 for a dog", thats what I hear over and over again. So I get no sympathy from them, and since I did NOT obey my local vet, I truly feel alone. While Heidi May is undergoing physical therapy, I have had to seek therapy for depression. You can't look at a wiener dog without smiling... they are simply the cutest little dogs! And boy do they have personality!! I just couldn't imagine not having her... but I don't want her to suffer. I wouldn't want any animal to suffer. I really think the more time that goes by, the more depressed she becomes. Almost like "why won't you let me out of here?!?!" She isn't used to being confined, she had full roam of the house... and yard.
Stevie... what is Cleopatra like now? Does she walk on her own? Does she seem to hurt from time to time? Or is she back to her old self? Marjorie, what about your baby? Maureen I really appreciate you praying for me... at this point I can use all the prayers I can get.
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Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Aug 13, 2013 4:10:41 GMT -7
Cleopatra is walking, running and loving life. She brings our whole family joy every day. However, I remember how hard crate rest was, and the fact Heidi May wants out is a good sign! A dog that is in pain or unhappy is listless and slow. It sounds to me like your rambunctious little girl just wants out, which is normal. You are doing the right thing by keeping her on crate rest, although it is hard it will help her heal.
Cleo does not hurt, but I think she does tire more easily than she used to. It has only been about 3 months since her surgery and she gets stronger all the time. Don't worry about your friends thinking you are crazy, I am a grad student who used my entire savings on the surgical deposit and then borrowed money to pay for the rest. My husband and I enjoy a lot of Ramen noodles for dinner!
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 13, 2013 6:10:15 GMT -7
My Jeremy had his first disc episode at age 3-1/2, which was 1-1/2 years ago. He went down quickly and had no deep pain sensation and was completely paralyzed and incontinent. He had surgery and had sensation in his feet a couple of days later. But it was months before there was any movement at all in his legs. Gradually movement returned and he learned to walk again, in fact he could run! At least he ran with his front legs and hopped with his back. He's been like an old dog since his surgery, though. Tires easily and can't walk as far as he used to. And he's remained incontinent, both bladder and bowel, even though that usually doesn't happen once they walk again. But he's been one happy boy through it all, except for the week following surgery. I was still seeing improvement in his walking a year after his surgery. Unfortunately, he's now recovering from a second disc episode and is just finishing up his last week of crate rest. This time there was no paralysis and I give immediate crate rest the credit for that. I know about the tears, believe me. Jeremy is a rescue dog. He was abandoned at age 1 when he was hit by a car, fracturing his clavicle, and his owners abandoned him at the vet's office. He then spent six months in a pound and became what they called "cage aggressive" and was going to be euthanized. A local rescue took him, had him for another three months when I adopted him. He was a mess when I took him, not house trained, a nervous wreck, hyper, snappy. It took me a good year to get him to a good place in life, then we had that good year and then he went down with IVDD. It just broke my heart in two to see that boy, who so much loves to run on the beach, paralyzed like he was. But he did recover and I know he will recover from this second episode. But even though he's not as bad this time, it's so hard seeing him confined yet again. I'm glad to hear that the vet put Heidi May back on the meds. Sometimes it just takes a bit longer to heal from the surgery. Is she comfortable as long as she's on the meds? Acupuncture can be very helpful. Jeremy went for quite a few sessions and it helped with his pain and calmed him down. A lot of Jeremy's aggression had come back after the surgery - I think the three days he spent at the hospital had him thinking he was being abandoned again, even though I did visit when they let me. As Paula told another member the other day, expressing is a matter of physics. That means the pressure applied to the bladder has to be greater than the strength of the urinary sphincter. Sometimes you have to hold that pressure many seconds longer than you think before the sphincter is overcome. Keep trying. I had trouble at first, too, but it does get easier and takes some practice. Hang in there and cry when you need to. Just try to keep a positive face around Heidi May and tell her every day that she's getting better. She's not suffering, just recovering from surgery. She has your love and care so she's blessed. She won't be in that crate forever. |
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 13, 2013 19:37:06 GMT -7
Danielle, Don't worry about what others think, you did what you know to be right. People that don't have that deep love for a pet as you do and we do, don't have a clue. You aren't crazy, you are a caring person that loves your Heidi May. I avoid people like that... and it's best if your surround yourself with supportive people and not people who don't understand what is important to you.. Don't let them get to you. You did the right thing, be proud of your strength and caring nature.. You can put Heidi May's crate right near where you are.. Make her feel she is still involved in everything that is going on in the house.. There are ways to make it bearable.. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmWe had a few people tell us that we should have put our Tyler to sleep instead of opting for surgery.. I told them their comments were not welcome, that Tyler deserved the best of care, he's family. They never said another word but I tend to avoid them anyway... : ) I cried plenty in the early days of Tyler's diagnosis but felt much better with the help of Dodgerslist moderators and members. The more I learned about IVDD and got busy taking care of Tyler once he came home, I soon adjusted to our new normal. That was a little over 6 months ago and he was able to walk early in his recovery. His story is on my signature line.. He is now having a mild episode and is on crate rest.. He is back to normal but needs to continue his rest. You are among friends here..You are not alone, we understand!! |
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Post by heidimay on Aug 13, 2013 20:47:58 GMT -7
WOW Stevie! Its only been 3 months since Cleopatra's surgery and she is already walking? That gives me hope! What did you do special? That seems so soon. Thats awesome. Did you do some kind of special exercises? Did Cleopatra do acupuncture? Is she really young? And my family and I are getting used to peanut butter and jelly EVERY NIGHT!
Marjorie, she seemed ok on meds, comfort wise, however, over the last 2 days she is a bit aggressive biting at both my kids (11 years, so not babies), which she has NEVER done. The last 2 days she seems stiff, and doesn't want to move. Even whining when I get her out for potty time. I hope she hasn't built up a tolerance to the meds, and now they aren't working?!?! How long was Jeremy on crate rest the 2nd time?
Maureen, does it make sense that she would become aggressive? Is she in pain now as part of her healing process? I've heard that pain can be a good thing, as it means the nerves are regaining feeling. I am not sure how true this is??
Pauliana, I admire the fact that you actually told people that their comments were not welcome. You are absolutely correct, I should not be around anyone who has a negative affect on our healing. As far as crying goes, I stay up most nights, staring at her. Its almost midnight where I live, and I don't think I've slept more than about 4 hours a night since this happened. If I am not setting an alarm to make her pee, eat, or giving meds, I am probably in the floor next to her crate crying.
You ALL have given me hope!! I can not thank you guys enough for all you advice and support. I truly don't know how I would get through this without you. Actually I probably wouldn't have. You all have been a blessing to me. An answer to my prayers!!
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Post by Stevie & Cleopatra on Aug 13, 2013 21:38:54 GMT -7
Cleo is about 5 1/2 years old, so she is pretty young. Her back end was totally paralyzed before her surgery, and she had lost deep pain sensation but only for a few hours. I can't say I did anything "special," I wanted to do acupuncture but we could not afford it. Actually, because we spent everything we had on the surgery itself, I was the only physical therapist Cleo had. My Mother always told me that in life, you usually have not enough time and plenty of money, or not enough money and plenty of time. I work at home, so I had the latter, I was with Cleo all day every day, so I got the physical therapist job!
For the first 2 weeks after surgery (per the surgeon's instructions) we did nothing but crate rest and out 3 times a day to go potty. Then, after the sutures were removed, I started a 5 minute walk with a sling each day. At first, Cleo's back legs didn't move at all, so I supported her back end and she walked. I wanted to walk her in different locations each day, but she couldn't get very far. So I bought a dog carriage for about $30 on eBay and I would put her in it and walk around town. This seemed to make her crate rest less difficult, and it made me feel good to. We would walk to a park in the carriage and then I would get her out, put her on the sling and let her walk in the grass for 5 minutes.
After the first week, we added 5 minutes of additional walking each week. I continued to use the sling, and first she started to swing her legs and then put a little pressure on them. I started putting less pressure on the sling, so she would use her legs more. For the first few weeks, she was exhausted after her walking sessions. After about 6 weeks, I was able to walk her without the sling. We only walk on even surfaces, and she still does better on concrete than on grass. Cleopatra has always been a "floppy" sort of dog, even before the surgery, she still seems less confident on grass than on a hard surface.
We had some days where we had setbacks, a few times when we increased walking times she was sore and whimpering the next day which, of course, scared me to death and made me thought she had relapsed. One time, we were walking in her carriage on a path and a little child asked if she could pet Cleo. I said OK, as long as she was gentle, but when she approached the carriage Cleo decided she wanted no part of it and she actually jumped out of the carriage (she couldn't walk yet) and tried to drag herself away. I was so upset with myself but Cleo survived the incident.
I did try hydrotherapy in the bathtub, but Cleo refused to paddle, even when her feet were not touching the ground she would just float there! I did some bicycle movements with her legs in the water, but eventually I gave up on the water therapy because she seemed to think it was a crazy idea.
Don't forget that every dog heals differently, Heidi May will recover on her own schedule. She should not be in pain, if you think she is, call her surgeon again. Sometimes it takes a while to tweak the meds and get it right. The aggression may be due to discomfort, I would ask about that too. I called my poor surgeon every time Cleo didn't look quite right. It is OK to be "pushy" because you are Heidi May's advocate! Keep being a pushy Mom, you are doing great!
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 13, 2013 21:57:57 GMT -7
Danielle,
You need to get your rest too, in order to care for Heidi May. It is also a good idea NOT to cry in front of her because she will feel that she did something wrong.. Be a upbeat and soothing around her, so she won't worry.. They feel our emotions. Once she starts feeling better, you will too, believe me! Keep encouraging each other.. It will get better day by day..
Sweet dreams...
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 14, 2013 9:19:39 GMT -7
Danielle, Heidi is still in pain. Something is not right. You need to call back to the surgeon and be persistant to speak with him not relayed information between you and a receptionist or a vet tech. Usually it takes about 2 weeks for the swelling due to the surgical procedure itself to subside it is now 23 days later and she is showing signs of pain: not wanting to move, aggressive to keep people away.
What is the name of the hospital where the surgery was done, the state/city?
What is the exact dose in mg's and how often do you give each of these meds?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 14, 2013 10:29:13 GMT -7
To answer your question to me, Danielle, Jeremy is just finishing up his 8 weeks of crate rest. He has 4 more days and then I can gradually start rehabilitating him to strengthen his muscles and help him regain stamina. I'll be able to assess better at that time just how much nerve damage was done by the second disc episode and how he's walking. Crate rest is 8 weeks for conservative care and 6 weeks following surgery.
I'll be looking for an update from you after you've spoken to the surgeon about Heidi's pain as Paula has recommended.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
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Post by StevieLuv on Aug 18, 2013 20:23:58 GMT -7
How is Heidi May doing now?
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Post by heidimay on Aug 19, 2013 21:51:24 GMT -7
Sorry I am just getting back to you... its been a nightmare. We started seeing a new vet (which we love). She told us to try to take her off the meds again, and see how she does. While visiting this vet, I asked them to express her bladder, as I could not get anything out. (A month later, and I still have problems with this). She told me that even she (the vet) could not get her to potty. So she did recommend to continue the valium 5 mg (cut in half). This seems to "loosen" her muscles enough to let the urine out. Actually weening her off the meds... slowly, instead of cold turkey, seemed to do better. She has chewed on her bone more, and seems A LOT happier. She hasn't bitten or snapped at the kids, and tries every chance she gets to scoot out of the crate. She desperately wants out of that crate, and makes "jumping motions" every time I open the top to put in food. This scares me, as I worry she will injure herself by trying to "jump". She can't use her back legs at all, so I know she can't jump too far... but in her mind she still can. I think the sling idea is great. Next week when she can finally come out of the crate, I think I will try this. I also saw a video of putting a dog in water (obviously not too deep), and I liked the look of that. The dogs body seemed to float effortlessly, instead of being a strain. Maybe between the sling and putting her in water, we can build some muscle tissue. When she does get out of jail "crate", will dragging herself around injure her more?? I mean, it cant be good for her to put that kind of strain on her paralyzed back and legs? Money is very tight now, and I don't want to purchase a wheelchair if she will walk again, as they can be costly. However, is she going to be ok dragging herself around? How long can she do that before she does injure herself? Her body is somewhat out of alignment, so dragging seems like it would be a terrible thing for her to do. I don't want added strain to that vertebrae?? I was told that the valium could be somewhat slowing down the recovery, as it keeps her muscles relaxed, but kidney problems was the alternative. So the vet said to continue on with those because expressing her bladder is a MUST. The valium isn't keeping her from recovering, it just is keeping her muscles relaxed, when the should be trying to get strong. She said it isn't a major setback, only a minor stone to step over. SO, I am not crying... as much!!
P.S. There isn't a dog chiropractor in our area, thats a 2 hour drive. Guess thats better than the 3 hour drive to the surgeon?!?! But is this really necessary? If she is ok dragging, than the chiropractor is a waste of money... that I really don't have. DId anybody else's dog seem to curve to one side, more than the other??
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 20, 2013 6:02:41 GMT -7
Danielle, chiropractic treatment is not recommended for dogs with IVDD. Please read this page to find out why: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htmLaser light therapy, acupuncture and electroacupuncture which sends a microcurrent of electricity to and from acupuncture points (which are really big nerve bundles), can be very beneficial at helping to re-establish the nerve connections in the body. Any one of these therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration. Find a holistic vet here: ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet. The main problem with dragging is that they can get sore and have abrasions and skin issues. Here are some tips for the care of a paralyzed dog: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/IncontinentDown.htm |
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Sabrina
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My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
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Post by Sabrina on Aug 20, 2013 7:38:17 GMT -7
Hi Danielle, I'm Sabrina. I'm so sorry for all that you and Heidi have been through! So glad to hear she's happier now - she's not currently showing any signs of pain?
My Charley started doing the "bucking" motion when he saw food coming, so I started giving him his meals through the side door of the crate. He quickly figured out that the food was going to be coming from the side, not the top, so he doesn't "buck" much anymore - he's switched to watching the door like a hawk! Is Heidi's recovery suite a crate or an ex-pen? If it's a crate and has a door on the side, could you give her meals through the side door? Or if there isn't a door, what about putting a few pieces of food through the bars right in front of her to distract her while you sneak the rest of her meal in through the top?
))Hugs!((
- Sabrina
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Aug 20, 2013 9:49:42 GMT -7
Water therapy works really well - when they are in water up to their shoulders they are only supporting about 30% of their body weight on their legs, which allows them to move more easily and start to build muscle and co-ordination. A kiddie pool, or even the bathtub works well for this, and a life vest is worn if they can't stand alone. There are scooting garments or capes that she can wear after healing is done so that she doesn't get sores from dragging her hind end. You are doing a great job - keep your chin up!! |
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