karin
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Post by karin on Aug 9, 2013 16:02:00 GMT -7
Hello Everyone who remembers Michael who had surgery for Cervical Disc Herniation that left him totally paralyzed, but recovered 8 wks after surgery, in 2010. And last fall he had another cervical partial herniation that left his left side buckling and caving, but with steroids could walk within an hour., but was still crated for nearly 10 wks. Today's Diagnosis: It is suspected by my Vet, that Michael has a herniated disc in lower back affecting both legs now. pls pray it's not too late for the steroids to work like they did last fall. I will not allow my 14 yr. old baby to have surgery again. This is his 3rd Epidosde.. Michael started 10 mg Prednisolone 2'xs a day for 5 days today. Will be less next week. He is on Tramadol 75 mg 3 times a day. He has been on that Tramadol dose since Monday. But was on 75 ml twice a day since 8-2 till Monday 8-5, when it was increased b'cuz of he was experiencing so much pain. Michael was on Butrenex in the Vet Hospital overnite 8-1,every 6 hrs. at 1.67 mg, and Rovera 100 mg twice a day. I brought him home Friday, walking and on Rovera [carprofen] 100 mg twice a day, and Tramadol 75 mg twice a day. Saturday night his pain returned and he had horrible gastrointestinal bloody watery diarrhea 3 times since evening, midnight and 4 in the morning. The emergency told me by phone it was probably due to the anti-inflammatory Rovera...which i stopped altogether on Sunday 8-4. I fed him a bland diet and watched him closely. He wasn't able to just walk around, but was on his stomach. Except for one incident, when I was putting the plastic gates around him outside..I walked in the house for a minute, and he escaped cuz they weren't hinged and was walking smelling the grass until I went over to him and he seemed to have run out of gas anyway and sat down and couldn't get back up. When he really wanted to escape the cage I guess his adrenaline kicked in? On Tues 8/6 he started Gabapentin 100 mg one a day and discontinued it today 8/9. On eve 8/7 started Metacam 32 ml for 55 lb. I only gave it to him that once and after telling the Vet that in the a.m. of 8/8 his back legs aren't propping themselves for potty and he isn't standing to walk away, she said to discontinue Metacam and start the Prednisolone on Friday a.m., b'cuz it needed at least a little wash out time, but time was against us..This a.m. with gloves when i touched his rectum area, he didn't flinch like he usually would, and I noticed he lets me adjust his legs without getting squirmy and whining..he has no pain. His tail moves. But he has been constipatated since he went brownish mushy diarrhea on Tuesday. Dr. Beyer suspects his prognosis is poor now. And since i can't afford surgery, nor would I want my 14 yr. old boy to endure that...I am praying that conservative crate rest is going to work Would someone pls look up in the archives what dose of prednisolone we had him on the first day of his herniation last fall? thx..  Started him on "Prednisolone" this morning at 11:30...and "crating" him..Situation began last week Wed., I noticed him not using his left hind leg well, ust a little sluggish going up the ramp, and he yelped when i massaged him briefly. I thought he must have just had a strained muscle, b'cuz sometimes when my mom watches him, she isn't quick on the draw when he gets on the linoleum, he is supposed to stay on carpeted areas and runners thru kitchen to back. So anyway, the next morning 8-1, he yelped in pain when trying to stand. I noticed it was his left leg holding up and crying in pain. So I took him to the Vet Hospital. When they X-Rayed him last Thurs, saw no dislocated hip, noticed "Bridging" in his lower discs...but his symptom didn't seem like a herniated disc. He had pain getting up on his hind left leg. Left him overnight at the Vet Hospital. He was walking next day cuz of anti-inflammatories & pain meds...Since he's been home, so much has happened with the pain and inability to use that leg again (more details later), except it walked when he wanted to go get away from his "biz"..oddly enough, but not too far on Wed. Vet thinks that he had a disc beginning to herniate and didn't show on the xray, would have had to have had an expensive MRI for that. So, they just went by what I thought he had...i thought he was slipping and sliding on the linoleum and over stretched his ligament or muscle.I could not afford an MRI, but they never even mentioned that for him anyway.. I think the herniation happened this Wed night 8/7, when I tried to get him to relax and go to sleep..I tried getting him to lay down and he quickly jumped up and sort of fell back down and up he went..i think that torquing made the bridging collapse, b'cuz he yelped in lots of pain..cuz it was the next a.m., Th a.m., that he wasn't using his legs to prop for potty. The day before he propped for both pee and poo and stood up to walk away, but looked a little weak, and I had him sit. So, then what was actually the cause of the original issue? the one leg that he help up but that was able to walk after pain meds? was that a partially herniated disc? or are they two separate issues. Hoping that starting the Prednisolone today isn't too late for conservative to work. Has anyone else ever experienced lower leg herniated disc like this? |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 9, 2013 19:25:36 GMT -7
Karin, I'm sorry that Michael is having a disc problem. So we can best follow the critical information would you recap for us briefly by answering the questions below: He went from Metacam 8/7 to Prednisolone 8/9 without a 4-7 day washout and without any stomach protection. Why is he not on Pepcid AC to protect the GI tract? Please call and get Pepcid AC on board! This is the way you go about asking…. Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in protecting the stomach by giving Pepcid AC. What is the active ingredient in Rovera? This med did not come up when I Googled it. Currently today is he showing any signs of pain? Reluctant to move, yelps, shivers, tight tense tummy muscles? Can he move his legs at all? Can he move up into a standing position? Can he lift his leg to pee? Can he specifically wag his tail if you do some happy talk to him or he sees a treat coming? Because it has been a while, it would be best if you refresh your mind on all the phases of healing, when and what to expect during each phase. We have a new page since you were last here that is very helpful. Each button contains the information you need in caring for and understanding what Michael is going through: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 9, 2013 21:58:14 GMT -7
Hi Paula, Thank you for answering my post I apologize for having forgotten to include the fact that I have been giving Michael Pepcid AC since Monday, 8-5-13, ever since his horrible Sat eve thru Sun a.m. of "watery bloody diarrhea". I stopped the Rovera all day Sunday and called my Vet who wasn't in Mon., but spoke with another Vet who said to give 1/4 of the 100mg Rovera instead of 1/2 ..twice a day. So, 25 mg. I only gave him that on Monday and discontinued Tues, but at midnight gave him 25 mg because he was panting and whining. It calmed him down and he went to sleep all night. Wed. the Vet prescribed "Metacam" Rovera is the same as Rimadyl, my Vet said, just a different brand. I need to edit the Rovera amount they gave in the hospital was also 1/2 of the 100 mg Rovera..so 50 mg twice a day. And that's what i gave him Friday 8-2 and Sat. 8-3, but without pepcid. The Vet's believed that Michael was especially susceptible to getting gastrointestinal bleeding, and didn't believe that he needed Pepcid with that. Probably they said that because I had mentioned that he probably didn't get any pepcid in the overnite stay at the Vet hospital. Tues., my Vet Dr. Beyer was back and I complained about the Rovera, and so she prescribed "Metacam" taken orally, is milder on the stomach. She said to give it Wed. night. No longer washout time, b'cuz we are dealing with Michael's situation that he really required an anti-inflamatory to deal with his pain. His pain was occuring when after transporting him outside by way of first off..placing a thin thermal blanket under him gingerly as I could, but would cause him pain when I had to adjust his hips and then outside putting it bAoack under him he would get ancy and use his front legs to back up away from me piling weight into his hind left leg that was already painful, standup screaming holding his leg up, and sounding like an animal getting slaughtered, it was so frightening. I would make him sit down quickly. and get the blanket under him again, to pull him onto a little rug. I pull that rug with two leashes that clip into the corners where I made holes with "Joyce Scissors"...buy them on Amazon..the best scissors in the world cuts thru most anything. Since we had already increased his "Tramadol" by 75 mg 3x's a day, and he was still in pain, we knew he needed an anti-inflammatory, so we switched to "Metacam" Wed night. He slept like a baby all night and slept in the morning. Thurs. a.m. he was so sleepy, and we went outside to sit for a couple of hours, and that's when I discovered that he was not propping himself up (girl style that he tends to do) but pee'd right under him and did not try to get away as he had done the day before. The day before he actually propped and then stood up and walk sideways away to get away from the pee. So, i called Dr. Beyer and told her i was worried because his back legs seemed "dead"...they were just sort of sticking out to the sides and not even using them to adjust under him and move his back end while on stomach. She said she suspected he had totally herniated a disc, and to give him the 10 mg Prednisolone Friday as the soonest safest, with time against us in treating a totally herniated disc., the risk was overridedd. And, I gave Pepcid AC with the Prednisolone. By Thursday evening, Michael's back legs seemed to have "woken up", they adjust sometimes, but when he peed Th eve he did not prop up or try to stand. So, I started the prednisolone this a.m. at 11 a.m., discontinued the Gabapantenin, because that makes him so droggy I wanted to see how he did without it. And low and behold....this evening...he peed girly style,propped himself up, then stood up and took a step forward away from the pee, but i was holding him carefully preventing him from walking, and I made him sit on the "transport" blanket immediately. Because i figured if he has a herniated disc, he should not be walking.So, now my question is: How could he use the legs to prop for peeing, and stand up and use his legs to walk forward if he has a herniated disc? And why didn't he do that yesterday?I'm inclined to think that with all the sedation from the Gabapentin, and the grogginess from the Metacam, his legs had gone to sleep? or did the Prednisolone today already work some and that's why he was back to standing after peeing and trying to walk away? I guess I continue to give him the Prednisolone, but if he really has an injured left leg muscle (it cause him pain if you even touched the upper hip area the other day_ but since the metacam, he does'nt feel any pain there. If he only had a pulled or strained muscle would this behavior be occuring. I'm totally baffled. What are your thoughts based on your knowledge about these things? Thank you so much, Karin |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2013 10:55:26 GMT -7
Karin, your vets have played a pretty dangerous game with his anti-inflammatory medications. Owners need to be able to step up and advocate for their dogs whenever anti-inflammatories are used. This would be a good card to print out and carry in your purse for vet visits to help you to remember to speak up about stomach protection: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/MedCard.pdfRe: medications: 1. NSAIDs <--> NSAIDs or NSAIDs <--> steroids need a 4-7 day washout 2. All NSAIDs whether Rovera (carprofen) or metacam carry the same dangerous side effects. Read more about why they do from Dr. Stuart Clark-Price, a veterinary anesthesiologist and internal medicine specialist at the University of Illinois Veterinary Teaching Hospital in Urbana. vetmed.illinois.edu/petcolumns/petcols_article_page.php?PETCOLID=467&URL=03. Because of all the dangerous switching between NSAID to NSAID to Steroid, his stomach should have been protected by not just Pepcid AC alone but also sucralfate to avoid GI tract problems. Michael is one heck of a lucky dog to have not done worse than bloody diarrhea..it could have been a deadly perforated stomach lining. Re: nerves: 1. This is good news that prednisone is working to get inflammation down evidenced by being able to squat to pee now and ability to walk. In other words pred is reducing pressure to the spinal cord. Nerves react to pressure by loss of nerve functions. 2. A pulled muscle will not cause loss of nerve function evidence by in ability to hold his legs up to potty. I know how upset you must be, how mysterious this is. What will help you and what we really require of all members is that each owner do their own reading. Reading helps you to know how meds work, what to expect. We used to write the same thing many times a day to the hundreds of people on this Forum. Now we have articles that answer the questions people have… give understanding owners need. How could he use the legs to prop for peeing, and stand up and use his legs to walk forward if he has a herniated disc? Short answer is he is healing. More in depth information about nerve healing is here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmI guess I continue to give him the Prednisolone, The short answer is pred is one med which can't be stopped abruptly without danger to the body it must be given exactly as prescribed by your vet. More in depth understanding of the use of steroids such as prednisone is here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmKarin, can you help us out by giving us a one-two word/sentence answer about the following:--Currently today, is he showing any signs of pain? Reluctant to move, yelps, shivers, tight tense tummy muscles? Any hint of pain nearing his next dose of Tramadol? Or any hint of pain after moving?You are doing the single most important part of his care…. the 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks. I know you have a challenge with a heavier dog and am so glad to hear you have some very good ideas on limiting his footsteps with sliding on the blanket out to potty and a small fenced potty area to contain him. Michael is such a smart boy… just keep one step ahead of him in thinking how to prevent him from hurting himself…dogs will always do the unexpected. Limiting movement of his back is how his disc can heal. This video shows what could happen if Michael decides to get more exercise that what is allowed.
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 10, 2013 13:03:51 GMT -7
Thank you so much Paula. I NEED TO KNOW ASAP IF I SHOULD GIVE HIM SOME PSYLLIUM IN WATER. HE HAS NOT POOPED SINCE TUES..(MUSHY BROWN W/ SLIGHTLY FORMED TURTLES)..or should I just wait till he goes on his own?
pls note that Michael is not walking in his crate at all. Just exhibited that after peeing and a while ago outside, at 12:50 p.m., I saw him trying to back up like as if to stand or prop to poop, so since he hasn't pooped since Tues., I was going to assist him. I put my arms under him and he pushed straight up and balanced. I told him to sit, but his legs I wasn't sure if they were too stiff to make him bend and sit, so I just remained holding him telling him to "sit". Then he very slowly moved his right leg/foot forward towards a turning motion to the left stepped his fronts towards left (mind you we were on a very slight incline) so he then used is left (one which is the original problem hip) and turn it towards left forward and again with right..but these steps were done slowly . Then I coaxed him to sit and made sure he did, once I realized his legs were not frozen stiff. (whew!) I believe there is hope once again!
Now to answer your questions NO PAIN AND NO YELPING..NONE OF THE ABOVE.
MICHAEL DOESN'T JUST STAND AND BEGIN TO WALK..THAT WILL TAKE TIME..BUT WE ARE ON A GOOD FOOTING (NO PUN INTENDED LOL) I am very happy indeed. I was afraid it might be too late to start the Conservative Therapy. Thank you Paula!! As always you all are a blessing!
I will read the following too.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2013 13:58:43 GMT -7
Pumpkin is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. The amount of water in the diet makes all the difference. This is what we give our about 20 lbs doxies. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with a teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. To firm up the stool add 1 teaspoon pumpkin to kibble and no extra water 1x a day. Note alternatives: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potoato.
Has Michael been eating normal amounts of food since the bloody diareah on Sunday 8/4 so that he has something to poop out?
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 10, 2013 15:32:00 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
Yes, he even had a healthy appetite on Sunday during the day following the bloody/watery diarrhea, which is really hard for me to comprehend. And has been eating all week. He had mushy brown poop with a few loosely formed turdles Tues. And that was the last time. I did what the vet said on Monday and gave him brown rice and cooked fish. Then I went and bought some Wellness can food - chicken and turkey, b'cuz it has no grain. and mix that with chicken or hamburger meat. Some days he eats less per serving (and definitely less than he normally ever did...I haven't given him any kibbles. He used to eat mixed wet/can & kibble) I think the anti-inflammatories have made him constipated.
Please tell me, because I am better educated re: cervical herniations. This one we think is that area in his lower spine that the Vet said had "bridging" and instability. I am wondering if you know of any other lower back herniations that started like Michael's. With one leg being held up and yelping in pain? He would use the right leg but didn't go anywhere, but I noticed his left leg being held up. But, oddly when he sat down..if you touched the upper part of the hip, he yelped..there was pain in the upper hip area..why is that? and when I massaged gently up and down his back, but avoiding the spine direcly, just alongside..he had no pain. When he had the cervical disc herniaion, he had pain when you touched there.? why is that? is that typical for lower back herniation? And my last question, based on all you have heard...have other dogs with a similar case, did they recover by 8 wks., or does it take longer? or shorter?
Thank you,
Karin and Michael
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2013 17:31:09 GMT -7
Karin a disc no matter where in the spine will take the same amount of time to heal. It sounds like Michael may have root signature pain. This is where a damaged disc is not pressing on the spinal cord but pressing on where one of the nerve roots exits the spinal cord going out to the leg. You can read more about root signature pain in the answer Dr. Isaacs wrote us: www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/rootsignature.htm |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 10, 2013 21:28:37 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
I'll have to ask for Sulfracate next week. Is that also sold at a pharmacy?
I am really concerned about Michael still not going poop. I gave him some sweet potatoe this afternoon..mashed up and made chicken balls and balls with hamber meat ground up ...We sat outside for two hours till 8:30, and only pee. So, I got an ice cube, something I remember being told to do for him when he was recovering from his surgery...and rub it on the outside of his anus. Do you know that he doesn't even flinch. And that worries me. So, I got some rubber gloves and lightly entered his rectum for just a quarter of an inch, and he did seem to feel that, he stood up, but he didn't yelp or get ancy like he probably would have normally. Is that a sign that he might not have control of his ability to poop? I have a link to learn how to express him...but please tell me, have you ever heard of a dog not pooping for 3 1/2 days in these circumstances?
And last question..I will read the rootsignature doc..but can that type also heal?
Thank you so much..it's wonderful to see how sophisticated Dodgerslist has become.
Karin
Happy Sunday! It is a Happy Sunday for me, because Michael finally did the deed, and made 4 healthy looking/sized turtles this a.m. He squatted, but when he was finished he seemed not to know what to do with his legs, so I gentley held him from underneath his belly as I stood over him, and he started to straighten out/up and wanted to just stand/balance and enjoy the moment it seemed. I wanted him to sit,I told him to sit, but he wouldn't so I let go and stood in front of him and made the hand motion to sit and motion to stop and he sat/layed on his tummy.
He is one Lucky Beast for sure...defying the odds! Breaking the med rules didn't have any serious repercussions, and his disc isn't impeding nerves to potty makin g.
Now if he is really my Lucky Boy...he will recover 100%...that is the next hurdle.
I wonder why he can stand from peeing or pooping, but doesn't try to stand on his own?
Karin ps
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StevieLuv
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Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Aug 11, 2013 10:02:27 GMT -7
Good news on the poop! - by we sure do get excited about potty times here don't we? Michael will try to stand more and more as his herves heal, right now the drive to stand when he eliminates is strong, probably because he is well trained, and dogs hate to be in their own waste. I'm glad to hear that you have your medication schedule under control now too - he is one lucky boy to have a Mom that works so hard for him! |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 11, 2013 10:10:32 GMT -7
Karen, please contact your vet about not pooping for 3.5 days. Extra water with high fiber sweet potatoes is necessary to soften stools. When no extra water is added to the diet, high fiber causes constipation. When you express as shown in the video you do not need to be invasive at all. The upward stroke is what activates reflexes to move poop closer to the exit. The other finger technique is what helps to squeeze it out like toothpaste. A dog that has bowel control will not likely want you to express for poop. They have the ability to choose and control themselves where to deposit poop. Sucralfate is an Rx item. You will need to read about it's timing with other meds. www.marvistavet.com/html/sucralfate.htmlThe diet you are feeding should only be for a day or two… it is not a balanced diet…he needs to be transitioned back on to kibble so he gets the full nutrients his body needs. If he is not wanting to eat his regular food, do not wait, get sucralfate on board along with the Pepcid he is now taking. Not wanting to eat is an adverse sign of prednisone that needs prompt attention. The hope with all of conservative treatment is that with time and limited movement the disc will form good secure scar tissue, the disc will shrink back enough to not pressure the nerves and that nerves will regenerate enough for nerve functions to return. |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 11, 2013 10:46:06 GMT -7
We had our "Hallelujah moment just now! Michael didn't just crawl..(something he has not been able to do all week) but he actually stood and turned himself around with seemingly no pain. Or else the pain killers are working really well. He is on a thick foam futon, so it may be harder for him to stand all the way, but I'm not going to take him out now to see if he is actually able to stand by himself and walk...later when I pull him outside on the magic carpet I will see if he initiates walking. Of course I have to limit it completely, but I'm curious. I know he is ancy inside his recovery suite and that motivated him to turn himself around. good news for sure...there is hope!! Michael has never not had an appetite..he always has an appetite..and yes Prednisone creates an even bigger one doesn't it? Have a great day everyone! Hi Paula, Not sure what happened, I guess you missed my post that Michael went poop this a.m...yes sooo very happy bout that..and a few minutes ago, he stood and turned himself around in his recovery suite!! |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 11, 2013 14:21:07 GMT -7
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 11, 2013 16:47:29 GMT -7
To Stevieluv - Thank you so much for your comments and help. Yes, he is lucky I happen to be in between work and school...and available for him. This is definitely a lot of work, and perhaps I should start a business making myself available to help others in similar situations, but then again not everyone can afford to hire someone either.
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 12, 2013 7:04:36 GMT -7
Hi Paula and Stevie,
I'm so sorry, but I forgot to mention that I also have been giving Michael the recommended dose of "Probiotics" with his food and a quarter tb of fish oil. I'm sure that helped his stool formation since the watery bloody diarrhea.
I know that each case is unique in it's own way. But, last yr. when Michael had a herniated disc and his left paw buckled first and then his left side seemed caving with his back left going..He was able to walk an hour after the prednisolone.
But, today with his situation he has been on the Prednisolone since Friday and although I have seen him adjust himself in his Recovery Suite, kind of in a walking fashion..his steps were bigger than crawling..and outside after potty he likes to stand/balance and if i assist he has taken a few steps, even turning 1/4...Then how long do you think before he is feeling like getting up and walking on his own?
With other dogs that you know who have had lower back disc herniation (b'cuz this is our first, all others were cervical) how long does it generally take before they are walking?
I know that even when he does start walking, he is supposed to stay in his Recovery Suite for 8 wks., but have you ever seen it take longer than 8 wks for a dog with back leg issues to start walking? His Prednisolone dose is 10 mg twice a day for 5 days ...and then on ▼Wed. he is to get less...just 10 once a day fo 5...Do you think this dose is about average what is given to a dog with back leg disc herniation? He weighs 55 lbs.
It is ashamed that my Vet misdiagnosed Michael Aug st. If she knew about Root Signature pain and since she did know about his disc herniation past..she could have put him on prednisone then and he would be walking today. Like I mentioned in my first post he stayed overnight Aug 1st, and next morning was walking. We thought he had an overstretched muscle.
oh one more...re: Gabapentin. It tends to make Michael sleepy, so I give it to him at night, as i feel it helps him sleep all night, since the Prednisone, from experience makes him hyper. But, I'm wondering if the Gabapentin makes his body very lethargic and that's why he doesn't initiate walking on his own? Any knowledge of Gabapentin? I am just told it helps diminish pain.. But is it helpful in all cases?
Thank you,
Karin
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 12, 2013 11:43:21 GMT -7
Karin, without an understanding of Michael disease you mind simple can't rest. When there has been damage to the spinal cord several areas of the body have to heal. Each take a different means to heal and a different amount of time. We recommend to read, read and read some more. Why so much reading? Well, for one we moderators have a lot of typing to do when all the answers have been made available to anyone who will read them. We used to type the same answers over and over, but now you can access them in the links below. Reading and knowing where to find information helps to imprint it in your mind for better retention. how long do you think before he is feeling like getting up and walking on his own? feeling better: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmability to walk: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmPrednisone dose goes by the weight of the dog…your vet is best to discuss the dose with. The reason to give all meds as prescribed especially pain meds is to keep pain at bay. Usually that takes being on a prompt around the clock schedule…. rather than skipping doses (gabapentin and tramadol) or waiting til night. If he is in pain, moving gingerly, you need to help Michael get back in comfort. Not walking is nerve damage. |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 12, 2013 12:55:59 GMT -7
Thank you Paula, as much as I should remember these things those articles helped. But, I do have to admit, Our Vet right now is not Dr. Sloan who did the surgery, and who would give me excellent instructions. The current Vet who misdiagnosed him 8/1 and when he completely lost feeling in both legs 8-8 and she prescribed the Prednisone...she has not given me a timetable..I don't even know how many hours apart to give the Tramadol. She is out today, and I don't want to call her sub, b'cuz he gave me bad advice last week. She'll be in tomorrow, and I will call her. Pls tell me, about how many hours must you wait before giving Tramadol again? And also for the Prednisone? I wait about 9 - 11 hrs to give him the second 10 mg prednisolone. And I've been waiting about 6-7 hrs to give each tramadol. Does that sound about right?
Thank you, Karin |
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 12, 2013 14:29:41 GMT -7
Hi Karin! The dosages and timings of the medications should be on the medication bottles.. Look on the labels. If the Tramadol is 3 times a day that would be every 8 hours. Prednisolone is usually every 12 hours until the taper begins and the instructions for the taper should be on the label of the bottle.. Call your Vet's office if there is no info on the labels, that is just plain not right. Call and ask for the label instructions of each medication and write them down and keep a medication schedule to keep on track. They have done plenty already that was dangerous to Michael with the NSAIDS and Steroid at the same time. And the switches from one to the other without a proper washout. A Vet should know better.. Find an IVDD experienced Vet, it would be better for Michael in the longrun. Here's how: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmHope this helps. |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 12, 2013 14:59:56 GMT -7
Thank you Pauliana..No, no instructions on the label. I would have gone to my usual Vet but Dr. Sloan is always having a few surgeries that day we need him. I will call the Vet tomorrow. I am pretty disappointed in her. She seems honestly like a nice person, but just not knowledgeable regarding IVDD obviously and that certain meds need Pepcid and Sulfracate ...why the girls making up the medicine didn't put more than "twice a day" , or "once a day" nor the time frame is something I'm going to question. Thank you very much, Karin ps On The Bright Side..as I was transporting Michael on his "Magic Carpet" and extended the blanket under him, he popped straight up and stood up...this is the first I've seen him do..he does that after potty both pee and poo..and has walked/crawled to turn around in his "Recovery Suite", but that was a first that he was motivated to stand and could..so muscularly/neuronally he can stand on his own, with a little nudging.. That is good progress, but I will keep him crated for the nerves to heal, and the disc to heal. Luv to everyone at Dodgerslist!  Karin & Michael |
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 12, 2013 15:55:01 GMT -7
Hi Karin! Fabulous news that Michael stood up on his magic carpet!! He is definitely healing and it has only been a few days. Keep up the crate rest and tender loving care and learning to help Michael so you can be his advocate when needed.  Sending more healing wishes! |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 12, 2013 22:40:35 GMT -7
Hi Pauliana and Paula, Well...now here is something to SHOUT FROM THE ROOF ABOUT!! While waiting for Michael to go potty this early eve., he had gone pp, but I waited to see if he would go poo..well...I turned my back to go to the patio..and he smelled mom's cooking, and when I turned around, he had gotten up completely on his own and was walking towards the house..Of course I made him sit down and got him on his magic carpet...but hoping he didn't upset his disc by doing that. Now something else to worry about..not letting him walk much. always something huh?
But this is really remarkable and wanted to share this with you all!!
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 13, 2013 15:05:15 GMT -7
Michael is definitely walking without pain...I asked the Vet for more Prednisolone, but she said they are back ordered, and don't have anymore, but she will prescribe Prednisone...So, now I can even get it from a cheaper prescription...My question is; Is is okay on his body to transition to Prednisone? Tomorrow he goes down to 10 mil every day for 5 days, then 10 every other day... Thank you, Karin |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 13, 2013 19:19:23 GMT -7
Since tomorrow is the taper start, this is the time to be very observant for any signs of pain: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy, holding leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight. Often it takes being at the anti-inflamamtory dose of prednisone or prednisolone (Xmg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. On the taper the dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose and that is the time to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on Pred needed. Good question on the difference between pred and prednisolone and transitioning. I'l let a vet explain that. As usual my go-to-place is the Mar Vista Vet web page an excellent one to bookmark: www.marvistavet.com/html/prednisone.html |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 14, 2013 7:30:24 GMT -7
Thank you Paula, I read the article..sounds like it's okay to switch. Vet told me the Prednisolone is mainly for cats b'cuz it's easier on their liver, but right now her Vet Clinic is out, and it's on back order. So, I'm going to call Walmart and Target and see if they have Prednisone for less than my neighborhood Pavillion's Market Pharmacy. Yes, by tomorrow a.m., when he will only have had half his dose today...I will watch him closely..I'm nervous about the taper, kind of wish she would let him remain on 2x's a day for another week...I remember last fall having slipped backwards a couple of times. So, although he can walk, I'm still going to pull him out on the Magic Carpet Ride... ...outside he gets up on his own now and wants to go where he wants for potty...I hold the sling, and then direct him back to the carpet. So, afraid of any set-back. I've worked TOO HARD TO HAVE A SETBACK!!!!  You all know fully well what a job this is. lol  Thank you so very much, When I finish my Occupational Therapy Assistant Program, and get working, I'm going to donate to Dodger's List..I have when I was working, and I will again. Karin and Michael |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 14, 2013 9:06:50 GMT -7
Yes, prednisone is processed in the liver into prednisolone. So the taking of prednisolone saves the body of work to make the conversion. Check out the $4 generic programs at Walmart and Target genericmedlist.com/The magic carpet is necessary to keep Michael from walking to the potty spot. I sounds like you also now need to figure out a way to enclose a very small potty spot in the grass to keep him from the desire to take more footsteps than necessary to take care of business. You are right… you HAVE worked very hard to protect and care for Michael's discs….no way are any setbacks going to happen!! |
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 17, 2013 16:35:31 GMT -7
Hi Paula or Paulina, Michael is on his last 5 days of only 10 mg Pred a day. So far we are holding up. Tomorrow we start 10 mg every other day for 5 days..Is that correct? So, I'll only be giving him 3 more 10 mg tabs in the next roung? The only thing I can see is that sometimes when I take him on his Magic Carpet, he doesn't seem able to get up very easily with his hind legs, and other times ok. When he wants to turn around in his Recovery Suite, he seems to lift up easily enough. Maybe it's when he is tired and lazy..I will have to watch this carefully. I think he needs to adjust his legs close and under himself first..something he never had to do before. Maybe there was a little nerve damage? So, I bought some Vit B-12 Methylcarbolomon today. I recall you guys recommended it after his surgery for paralysis. It's 1000 mg. Should I cut it in half? and it is the lozenge type because they didn't have the tablet form. It has some fructose in it. Is it ok to crush it up and put in a dropper diluted w a little water and drop it into his mouth near the front tongue? Also, why wouldn't I be able to keep Michael on Prednisone indefinitely now at his old age of 14 1/2? To ensure that any inflammation be kept at bay? or would that be more harm by masking a herniated disc and not isolating him quick enough for it to heal? Thank you all so much, Karin and Michael |
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 17, 2013 18:59:44 GMT -7
Hi Karin,
It would be a safer idea to call and ask your Vet the right dosage for the B12 lozenge. Also ask if it is safe to give it with fructose in it..
Prednisone has many side effects so it is best to stay on it for least amount of time, just long enough to take care of the swelling. Tapering off of it gives his body the signal that it has to start making it's own Cortisol again.. Glucocorticoids are synthetic versions of the body’s naturally occurring hormone, cortisol. Steroids are basically the most powerful of anti-inflammatories. With IVDD, an anti-inflammatory dose is used rather than a higher immuno-suppressive dose used for other diseases. There are no safe medications. There are two safety factors with drugs. One is a vet who practices safe medicine with a blood test to verify the liver and kidneys are healthy prior to starting the medications. The other is an owner who is educated on what the side effects are and monitors their dog.
You are so watchful of Michael.. He is a lucky Dodgers dog!
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 17, 2013 22:12:37 GMT -7
Thank you Pauliana
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karin
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Post by karin on Aug 22, 2013 10:28:33 GMT -7
Hi Everybody, We are nearing the end of just two weeks crating since the Prednisone therapy, and Michael has not had a relapse. He does seem to have lost his ability to stand up as quickly on his hinds, some times certain times of the day make a difference, and if he is really tired. I notice his back legs flare some from his hips to his body..there was some damage...but he is able to walk, and that's a good thing. Too bad he was misdiagnosed..I am so disheartened about that. I am still pulling him outside on his magic carpet, and then back on..limiting his walking, keeping him in his "Recovery Suite". It is good exercise! Does anyone remember a harness for ivdd recovered dogs?..i can't find it by googling..it isnt the bottom's up one..it was a harness for the front and back legs that the owner held by one leash..not a looped leash..I saw it online a couple of yrs ago.Thank you very much, Karin |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 22, 2013 20:01:26 GMT -7
Was the harness a gingerlead.com ? After 8 weeks has been completed, Michael can get back to more activity and his rear legs will strengthen again. You are getting your exercise and it is doing Michael a world of good to not be walking to potty. The magic carpet is a good thing!! |
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You all know fully well what a job this is. lol 
