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Post by hayley on Aug 7, 2013 5:01:52 GMT -7
--What is your dog's name? Lulu - or Lu, Louis, Louie --What breed is your dog and did you specifically get a diagnosis of IVDD? Pug x Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, 10 years old in November No specific diagnosis - vet narrowed it down to a problem in the neck area but we are unable to afford the necessary tests to know for certain (especially since the treatment would be the same). I did my own research and asked the vet if it could be IVDD because Lulu is showing all of the signs apart from the pain. -- What was the date you saw the vet and started 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7? Saturday 3rd August - walking funny, lethargic. Vet prescribed anti inflammatories. Sunday 4th August - by the afternoon Lulu was unable to walk to stand. Monday 5th August - visited the vet - they asked if surgery was viable (it is not) and then said we have to look at quality of life/euthanasia. I then started reseaching further. Lulu had an injection of Medone for pain and was prescribed painkillers (tramal 20mg) and anti inflammatories (rimadyl 20mg) to be taken morning and night. Began to rest Lulu in one spot, but did not have a crate to contain her (not that she could move anyway) Tuesday 6th August - bought a crate and started crate rest. Visited a different vet for acupuncture, after which she brightened. They also did acupuncture to assist in bowel and bladder movements as the last one was on Sunday morning. Vet recommended rest with physio to stop muscles from degrading 2-3 times each day.Wednesday 7th August - went back to first vet because she still hasn't had a bowel movement although she did relieve her bladder at 1.30 this morning. Vet did a check up and performed an enema, reminded me to consider euthanasia. Ultrasound of bladder showed it to be 4cm, which apparently is fine. Recommended Duphalac as a laxative to assist in bowel movements. Appointment for acupuncture vet tomorrow evening. I am thinking about not returning to the first vet because they seem like they don't want me to try to let her heal. -- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? No. -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? Rimadyl 20 mg morning and evening Tramal 20 mg morning and evening Duphalac 5mls morning and evening (will begin this in the morning) -- Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? Cannot walk or stand. Can move legs when lying down, move into a more comfortable position eg. on her side or tummy, rolls over for a pat. Tail wags when people are around, especially when Daddy comes home. -- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? No -- Eating and drinking OK? Yes -- Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood? When she does, yes. Any advice you can give would be so helpful. I have taken long service leave from work and will be with her 24/7 for the next five days, maybe more if I can take more leave. I really don't want to euthanase her, especially while she is still pain free, wagging her tail and alert. Thank you. Hayley, Tyson and Lulu |
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 7, 2013 5:54:27 GMT -7
Hi, Hayley - Welcome to Dodgerslist. There is absolutely no reason to be considering euthanasia for Lulu. She obviously still has deep pain sensation as she can move her legs some and can still wag her tail, which is all very good. And it sounds like she still has good bladder control, correct? I agree with you that you need to find another vet who is more knowledgeable about IVDD. Here's more info on finding a better vet: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmThe crate rest needs to be 100% STRICT 24/7 only carried in and out to potty. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. Only a few steps to be taken during potty. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). With a disc problem it takes 8 weeks of strict rest to let the disc heal. Otherwise the weak scar tissue forming can easily be re-torn and the pain, more vet bills, the cycle of healing has to start all over again. You mentioned that your vet recommended physio while on crate rest. Once Lulu is off all medication and has no pain, at which time you can assume the disc is no longer inflammed, the very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage can be used during conservative treatment. The information highlighted in PINK at the following link pertains to a dog who can't walk. There should be no physio until Lulu is pain free and off her medication. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmI notice you didn't mention that Lulu is taking a stomach protectant such as Pepcid AC to protect her from the excess acid produced by the anti-inflammatory. If the stomach is left unprotected, internal bleeding can occur. Please get your vet's permission to give 5 mg of Pepcid AC (generic is famotidine) 30 minutes before each dose of Rimadyl. Tell the vet you want to be proactive about protecting her stomach. You should check with the vet first just to be sure that Lulu doesn't have any other conditions that he's aware of that might prohibit her from taking the Pepcid AC. You had also mentioned that Lulu's problem may be cervical. This webpage has some additional tips for a cervical disc herniation. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htmPlease confirm that Lulu has good bladder control and that you don't need any tips on expressing or keeping her bladder empty to prevent UTIs. Acupuncture can be very helpful in rejuvenating nerves so good job on getting those treatments started. I know it helped my Jeremy quite a lot at the beginning. I commend you for not listening to a vet who has such negative views of IVDD. Many, many dogs live happy lives, even if they do end up with paralysis or neuro deficits. Lulu still has movement and there is every reason to hope that, with 8 weeks of crate rest, she will regain use of her legs again. The crate rest is to heal the disc, giving it time to scar over. The nerves can take longer than the 8 weeks to heal, sometimes months to a year. But the nerves can definitely heal. Please keep us posted and hang in there. We're here for you. |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Aug 7, 2013 9:36:30 GMT -7
Hi, my name is Maureen. Welcome to Dodgerslist. I'm sorry that your Lulu is having a IVDD episode, but you have come to the right place. Marjorie has given you some valuable tools to get you started on learning about this disease, and what we as pet parents can do to support our dogs. It is important to get the Pepcid AC on board - you can buy Pepcid at the drugstore over the counter. We follow proactive vets and give our approx 13-20 lbs dogs 5mg 30 mins prior to medications . Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" I am concerned that there could be stomach upset casued by the anti-inflammatories. Something else to consider (like you don't have enough to worry about already) is using canned pumpkin to help with bowel movements - it really works well and is one less medication to give. In the early days of learning our dogs have IVDD, everyone needs a shoulder to lean on while getting things figured out, dealing with emotions, getting up to speed on meds, what disc disease is, etc. Your job in the coming days is to become a reader so you become the confident leader of the health care team.... to discuss confidently various issues from medications to recognizing if suggestions of activity would be harmful to the healing disc. All that takes being a reader. Start on our main website with "Overview: the essentials" yellow button it will give you the degree of understanding you need right away…. as time permits continue to read all the orange buttons and the blue button "Disc Disease 101 core readings" to complete your education. Here is the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmYou are right about finding a new Vet - you need someone that will support you and work with you to help your dog- and the one you have right now isn't doing any of that. We are all in this together - you aren't alone anymore, and we will will do anything that we can to help. Keeping you in thought and prayer  |
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Post by hayley on Aug 7, 2013 16:46:14 GMT -7
Thank you so much, Marjorie and Maureen, your replies have been a huge comfort to me.
The vet did say that Lulu had deep pain when I first took her in ... but I thought they meant she was IN deep pain which seemed strange as she was wagging her tail and acting completely normally. It wasn't until I asked them on the next visit that they said it was deep pain sensation ...
I am back to the acupuncture vet this afternoon and will talk to them about the peptic ac.
I was also going to ask them about expressing urine ... although I do believe it is a 'won't' rather than a 'can't'- she's a stubborn little thing. The one time I did get her to urinate was when I sat her outside and sat back for a couple of minutes - then she did it by herself, although she couldn't squat properly. Any tips to help with peeing would be great. A sling doesn't work so well for her, I have tried putting a towel around her middle to hold her up but she absolutely hates it and flips out.
We are located in Melbourne, Australia. I couldn't see any recommendations for vets in the area but I have put up a post asking if anyone knows of someone good. I also don't know if we have canned pumpkin here in the land down under - I saw it in the grocery stores when I was in the USA and Canada last year but don't remember ever seeing it here before. Never mind, I will just buy a pumpkin and mash it up.
Thank you again for your kind words and knowledge ... I am so relieved to know that there is hope for my girl.
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Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
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Post by Sabrina on Aug 7, 2013 17:31:14 GMT -7
Hi Hayley and Tyson! I'm Sabrina. So sorry that you and Lulu have to go through this. As Marjorie and Maureen said, be sure to ask the vet if there is a reason Lulu "should Not" be on pepcid ac - some vets are not proactive about GI protection, so you may have to push for it. If you can't find canned pumpkin, here's some advice I got on my thread: "Paula Milner said: Pumpkin is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. The amount of water in the diet makes all the difference. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with a teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. To firm up the stool add 1 teaspoon pumpkin to kibble and no extra water 1x a day. Note alternatives: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potoato." For potty time, it may help Lulu if you make a 6ft "potty spot" out of inexpensive plastic or wire garden fencing. My Charley-dog would much rather wander everywhere to find his own spot, but after it was suggested to me that we make him a "potty spot" we've had a lot more success with pottying outside (Charley never lost bladder control). I think having the visual/physical barrier is what's helped him realize that he's not going to get to find his own spot so he might as well use the one chosen for him! I'm wondering if some kind of "figure 8" sling would help Lulu: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies/Figure8.jpgI'm not sure where exactly to position the connecting part for a girl dog, maybe someone else can help with that! )))Hugs!((( |
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Post by hayley on Aug 7, 2013 17:52:46 GMT -7
Thank you Sabrina! More great advice. Lulu is being quite picky with her food, I was giving her roast beef to help with tablet taking and now she will settle for nothing less! Might make up a puree of beef to mix up with the pumpkin. She ate some sardines last night but turned her nose up at wallaby (an aussie animal like kangaroo) meat ... it did smell pretty disgusting although it is all organic and not out of date. I wouldn't eat it so I can't blame her. I'll try out the potty area and a figure 8 sling and let you know how she goes |
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Aug 7, 2013 19:10:00 GMT -7
No pumpkin pie in Australia? Unbelievable! Be sure you get plain pumpkin and not pumpkin pie filling, which has sugar and spices in it. Pears are a good alternative, if you can't find pumpkin.
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 7, 2013 20:24:33 GMT -7
Hi Hayley, welcome to Dodgerslist! Sorry to hear Lulu is having an IVDD episode but glad to see she isn't in pain.. Constipation happens frequently with the medications involved with treating the pain and inflammation. It isn't unusual for some dogs to go up to 5 or 6 days without a bowel movement.. Pumpkin and water added her her food works wonders but never allow any Vet to do an enema. It can cause too much movement in her back and neck that needs to be still to heal. Limited movement in the crate, only out to be carried to potty or to be expressed if she doesn't have bladder control, then back to the crate. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm"No matter what level of ability your dog achieves after recovery, your dog will be happy and loving life as long as three basic, but very simple, requirements of food, a safe, comfy place to sleep with blankets, and a family’s love are met. The real goal is being pain free. As long as your dog is pain free, he or she will move forward confidently and courageously never looking back, never having regrets, never questioning “why.” Dogs live in the “now.” They don’t worry about what happened yesterday or what tomorrow may bring. Dogs don’t know pity. They don’t know “can’t.” They don’t understand “may never.” They don’t give up. They don’t get discouraged. They epitomize “where there is a WILL, there is a WAY.” They will find a way! They don’t give up easily or quickly. They move forward in life in the best way they can. They don’t care if they can walk again. They care about your love most importantly. OK, food ranks right up near the top too! To them each new day brings the promise of another opportunity to get MORE - more food, more treats, and more love. Our challenge is clear: not to allow our perspective on quality of life to influence our decisions or cloud how we judge our dog’s quality of life living with IVDD. Part of that challenge is to manage our fear and not look at the situation based on how WE would perceive things if it were to happen to us. We need to keep in mind what THEY value and help support them in their journey in life. Right now, your dog needs your support to help them become pain free and heal so they can resume their journey in life and the things they value in whatever way they can. " Written by Sharon Duncan. I know you and Tyson, are up for this challenge! We are here to help! |
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Post by hayley on Aug 7, 2013 20:33:17 GMT -7
Thank you, Pauliana and pollysmom. Whole pumpkins are easy for me to get, just not canned. Pumpkin pie isn't a popular thing here, we eat pumpkin more as a savoury food, believe it or not! Pumpkin soup, puréed pumpkin, roast pumpkin ...
I made a front and back sling for Lou and took her out to the little potty spot I made for her but it wasn't successful. Hopefully the vet has more luck than I.
I'm a bit worried that she is developing pain .., when I was carrying her out she had a low grumble going on. It wasn't loud or agressive, more like a hmmmm. Is that a sign of pain?
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 7, 2013 20:48:34 GMT -7
Hi Hayley, Yes that is a sign of pain, along with trembling or shaking, yelping, groaning, and reluctance to move. Tramadol (Tramol) is a short acting drug that works better given every 8 hours. I would ask the Vet if you can increase to every 8 hours..Neck disc episodes are very painful and until she is out of pain, adjustments to the medications need to be made.. Once she is completely pain free dose to dose then she can begin healing.. My dog Tyler had a second disc episode 6 months after his surgery and both times our Vet had him on 25 mg of Tramadol every 8 hours. He is 13 pounds. Please read this about the pain medications normally used.. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmAccupuncture is very effective for IVDD and I am very glad you are finding more support with that Vet.. It is far better to work with a Vet who is not willing to give up and willing to fight for your Lulu's recovery.. |
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Post by hayley on Aug 7, 2013 21:15:57 GMT -7
Her last dose of Tramol was at 10.00am, so the pain must be great to get through the medication. Thank goodness we are off to the vet again. This was the first indication of pain that she has shown through the whole process, which is worrying.
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Dachshund
New Member
Always look up for help
Posts: 18
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Post by Dachshund on Aug 7, 2013 21:47:38 GMT -7
Hello my name is April sorry to hear Lulu is having to go through this it's not fun at all.
I can't believe a vet was trying to get you to euthanasia her, I'm glad you switched vets. It can be a little frustrating when there not educated on IVDD so then you gotta find another vet that is. Keep it up and stay in high spirits it'll be over before you know it.
She will get better and be back to her normal self just keep up with the crate rest.
God Bless
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Post by hayley on Aug 8, 2013 5:12:39 GMT -7
Thank you, April, I appreciate your positivity We have had an interesting afternoon. I asked for some vet recommendations for Melbourne and Linda Stowe has some facebook friends that recommended the university of Melbourne. To cut a long story short, I contacted one of the senior lecturers in veterinary neurology, and he thinks that perhaps Lulu does not have IVDD. We then headed off to have acupuncture and saw a different acupuncturist to the one we had last time, although she met Lulu during the last treatment. When we were talking about Lulu's condition, she said right away that IVDD doesn't fit - Lulu is showing no further signs of pain, and the vet/acupuncturist was able to move her neck with no resistance, pain or hesitation. She also referred to Lulu's foot and leg reflexes being strong and her tail wagging as normal as being indicators of a different condition. She seemed to think that Lulu was just too happy to have IVDD. However, just to be certain, we have a referral to the neurologist to find out for sure if it is IVDD or polyradiculoneuritis - which both the acupuncture vet and the senior lecturer seem to think it may be. I am hoping that we can get an appointment tomorrow or Saturday to find out for sure. The prognosis for polyradiculoneuritis is a lot better than it is for IVDD - she could just get up and start walking tomorrow. We are being very cautious not to get too excited about Lulu's health - she is still on strict crate rest. Tonight I fed her pork mince mixed with water and mashed sweet potato, and hopefully that gets her bowels moving. She was so excited to see Tyson when we got to the vet that she peed in the crate - she absolutely hated that and tried to squirm right up the end of the crate to get away from it. Lucky we had puppy pads down that soaked it all up without any fuss. I will keep you all posted about what is going on, thank you so much for your support and advice through this most difficult time. |
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Post by Linda Stowe on Aug 8, 2013 7:37:31 GMT -7
Haley, I am glad you will have the visit with the neuro to get a correct diagnosis and you're very wise to keep Lulu crated until you find out for sure.
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Dachshund
New Member
Always look up for help
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Post by Dachshund on Aug 8, 2013 9:08:10 GMT -7
My Pepper is like that she is really happy besides being stuck in the crate which she hates. She has been in crate rest for a 1 1/2 weeks and she is in no pain what so ever she is wanting to get out and run. I think she may not have IVDD but never can be sure.
Glad to hear of the good news hope she doesn't have IVDD and good luck on the neuro.
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Post by hayley on Aug 10, 2013 19:01:18 GMT -7
Hi everyone! Sorry for the delay in this update ...
I took Lulu to the vet hospital on Friday (where the veterinary neurologist that I spoke to is based) to get further testing. He ruled out IVDD and I stopped her meds on Friday night. Since then she has brightened and is moving about a bit, squirming around on the floor in pursuit of treats.
She is having blood tests (to rule out some other possible problems) and is going in for an EMG next week when those results are back. Apparently this is going to be a diagnosis by elimination.
I just wish I had taken her to that vet hospital right away rather than putting her and us through the trauma of the vet visits we have done instead. If anything happens again, that's where we will go.
The neurologist seems to think she has a good chance at recovery, so we are a happy little family again ... Much happier now we can have her out of the crate, pat and cuddle her and let her wiggle around.
I am still having problems getting her to urinate and defecate - she is urinating by accident about once a day and despite giving her mashed sweet potato and laxatives she still won't defecate. The last time she had a bowel movement was when the vet gave her an enema on Wednesday last week. I never thought I would be so hopeful to see a dog poo! She seems perfectly comfortable and is still eating and drinking, so I will call the vet hospital tomorrow to get her blood test results and see what they recommend in terms of toileting.
I am so grateful for the advice, support, prayers and kind wishes you have all shared with us, and hope for speedy recoveries and long lives for all of your precious friends. Thank you.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 11, 2013 9:42:00 GMT -7
Glad to hear the neuro believes she has a good chance to recover from the mystery disease diagnosed by process of elimination.
The high fiber (pureed pumpkin, microwaved, mashed sweet potato) needs to be accompanied by extra water in the diet. Are you soaking each kibble meal in equal parts liquid? Without extra liquids all that fiber will cause constipation.
Very best of wishes that they can pin down the cause of Lulu's nerve damage
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