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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Mar 16, 2013 5:57:10 GMT -7
Hi and thanks for this forum!
Jackson stopped walking on 2/17 and I rushed him to the University of Pennsylvania Veterinary School of Medicine. It was a Sunday so by the next morning he lost deep pain sensation. The doctor did surgery that Monday and I got Jackson back on Thursday. Right now it's been a month since the surgery and Jackson has no deep pain sensation. He has good reflex action though. Sometimes when I massage his back legs and paws he looks back to see what's going on. When I come to greet him in the morning he does wag his tail but I'm not sure if that is reflex. He doesn't wag when we talk to him in high voices like he used to. We haven't given up that he'll get better.
I take him outside once a day to walk with a sling and sniff all his favorite spots. I do passive range of motion exercises and express his bladder many times a day. When I pick him up he does leak some but that seems to be getting a little better.
Right now he's on prophylactic antibiotics. He also developed a seroma which I treat by putting warm compresses on three times a day. It seems to be almost gone. I stopped the compresses last week and it came back so I will continue even though it seems gone.
I made an appointment in two weeks to fit him for a cart. I'm hoping he will show some improvement by then.
All in all I'm very sad this happened. Jackson is still the same loveable boy as before and he wants to get up and run around. I'm keeping him as confined as possible.
I work a lot so he has plenty of time to rest.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 16, 2013 7:40:28 GMT -7
Elaine, good to see you here. I think you have reported some very good news!!! If Jackson can wag his tail with happiness at seeing you, then he does have DPS by necessity. Here is the typical order that nerves repair in:
1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.)
2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. Jackson is here!!!
3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test.
4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking.
5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet.
6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run.
So start giving him the sniff N pee test outside because bladder control will be next! The only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry outdoors, set on an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. If urine comes out bladder control is returning. You should do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe.
April 1st will be Jackson's graduation day. I would wait until then to assess his leg movement functions. Jackson just may surprise you. While we don't expect nerve functions to necessarily return in the short time of 6 weeks, but think more in terms of months, it is possible. At the end of 6 weeks you'll be in a better position to see if money is better spent on under water treadmill or a wheelchair. Are you now doing laser light therapy or acupuncture--- they help to stimulate the nerves to repair?
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Mar 16, 2013 8:55:25 GMT -7
Thanks for your sweet reply. According to the doctor, Jackson wasn't experiences deep pain or he wasn't sure. I've read somewhere that Dachshunds can be stoic. There is definite tail movement once or twice a day. Just a little bit. I have as of yesterday began to bring him to his sniff and pee spots. I am diligent! Thank you for being such a support in all of this. I couldn't have had the encouragement and trust for improvement without you.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 16, 2013 9:08:07 GMT -7
Well, perhaps since the last time the surgeon specialist saw Jackson, DPS returned. If you are definately seeing the tail move because of happiness... seeing you enter, anticipating a treat, your doing some happy talk to him.... well that would be a most definite sign that tail wagging directed by the brain is back. Tail movements at potty time or if you pressure the tail are likely reflex.
You warm our hearts, Elaine, to hear we are doing our job....giving support! Thank you!!!
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Mar 16, 2013 12:59:57 GMT -7
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Post by natureluva on Mar 16, 2013 15:35:20 GMT -7
Hi, just chiming in here. When you see the acupuncturist, you may want to ask for electric acupuncture. It is stronger than regular acupuncture. It is usually reserved for dogs with profound nerve damage - those lacking DPS or bladder control or both. My dog, Goosie, also had no DPS or bladder control after surgery. I truly believe electric acupuncture helped him regain his bladder control more quickly. He slowly regained partial DPS and tail wagging as the months went by. After each session, I found Goosie was serene, yet playful, and he slept soundly. His movements were stronger, too. I did order him a cart (at 10 weeks post-op) and it gave him his freedom while keeping his spine aligned (ordered it from Eddie's Wheels). Long story short - 11 months after his surgery, he walked on his own. He can't do certain things, like scratch himself or walk backwards, but he is loving life. You can read his recovery story here (there's a cool video at the end): www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory/goosieSullivan.htm
Each IVDD dog recovers at a different rate and to a different degree. Some dogs stand up a week after surgery. Some dogs, like my Goosie, require a much longer time. And still other dogs may remain paralyzed and simply use a cart. Although many IVDD dogs do walk again, trust me, those that don't are HAPPY dogs - they could care less that their back legs don't work.
Please let us know how the acupuncture goes. It may take a couple of sessions to notice improvements. Best wishes, ~Lisa
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Mar 17, 2013 5:42:22 GMT -7
Your story gave me lots of hope! Thanks for advising me about the accupuncture. I brought Jackson out to his favorite pee spot and urine did flow. (Not a lot). The signs are subtle so I'm unsure because when signs come they are very quick and short lived. I then think, did I press too hard or was it the sling? I know I just have to be patient.
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Post by natureluva on Mar 17, 2013 15:48:36 GMT -7
Hi Elaine - so he peed on his own?? Wonderful news! Jackson really is doing super for only a month post-op. I would think about delaying getting a cart for another month or so because he may start getting leg movement back, especially if you start getting him acupuncture.
Please keep us updated on his fabulous progress! ~Lisa
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Mar 18, 2013 17:52:36 GMT -7
No no, it must have been a coincidence. Things aren't going so well. He's had so many accidents today and yesterday and there doesn't seem to be any progress. The only thing I am sure of is that he wags when I come home from work only when I pick him up. It may be a reflex I'm not sure. I'm practicing patience. It's hard though.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 19, 2013 9:58:55 GMT -7
Elaine, how is expressing going...is he staying dry better? Did you get another expressing lesson? Have you seen the tail wag when you specifically do some happy talk to him?
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Mar 19, 2013 10:22:34 GMT -7
The expressing is going okay. I'm not home during the day so my friend does it for me but I'm not sure how thorough. I'm just thankful that she tries. He's a little wet inbetween. I keep him clean and dry as much as possible. He tries to walk away because I don't think he likes the process at all. He's still on amoxicillin. He definitely wags when I greet and take him out in the morning and after work, but that's it. He doesn't wag when we do any happy talk or treats. It's so hard to tell if he's improving at all. Maybe the wagging is a reflex. I've decided to go to a vet. that's an acupuncturist. I don't think I really need to go back to the surgeon. What do you think?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 19, 2013 10:26:47 GMT -7
When greeting you, I'm sure Jackson is happy and thus sending a message down the spinal cord for the tail to wag!!!! That is no reflex.
So every several days give him the sniff and pee test. From this point on a good general vet can help you and Jackson. Let us know how the acupucture session goes.
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Mar 30, 2013 19:42:02 GMT -7
Today Jackson and I went to a new vet. He barely touched his paws and said he had deep pain sensation. I don't know if it's true. Jackson got electro acupuncture today. Nothing has really changed in his health or function. It's been six weeks since his surgery. He can prop himself up on his flipped toes but not for long. We've decided to try the acupuncture for 6 weeks every Saturday. The doctor told me to give him turmeric, omega 3, cranberry, tinkle tincture, vitamin B complex and vitamin C. Jackson will be getting pumped up. Thursday Jackson will be getting measured for a cart. The doctor said only leave him in the cart 2 hrs a day. Should I let him move around the house propped on his front legs? He pulls himself and his back legs follow limp. The doctor said he'd regain nerves and function better that way. It's so confusing. I'm not convinced he has deep pain sensation, I won't go back to the neurologist again. It's all too expensive. Trying to stay positive. The doctor tested his urine with a dip stick. Everything looked good.
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Post by natureluva on Mar 31, 2013 6:19:48 GMT -7
Hi Elaine, thanks for the update on Jackson. Electro acupuncture is excellent for stimulating the nerves in paralyzed pups. Please let us know how things progress with that. Where did you order a cart from? 2 hours a day does sound about right for time in the cart per day. Basically, I had my dog in his cart for meals (that way he associated the cart with something pleasurable) and when he went outside. So...add it all together for a day and it ended up being about 2 hours total. In the house, he can scoot. Just protect his rear legs/bum with a garment. Here are some links to help you with that: For Scooters/Garments: Ollie’s Cape: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/incontinentdown/olliecape.pdf Clark’s Bumpad: users.cyberport.net/~milnerwm/bumpad1.html Tandy’s Butt Protect: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/aftercraterest/Buttprotect.htm K-9 Cart’s Protect-A-Pet: www.k9-carts.com/K9-Carts-Products/protect-a-pet.php Peekeeper: peekeeper.com/ To me, it is still unclear whether Jackson has DPS. You have seen him wag his tail with joy when you come home, and that would be a sign of nerve messages being able to travel through the spinal cord. However, he does not have bladder control or leg movement. He may have very slight DPS, and this is difficult to detect. My suggestion to you is to try to relax and not worry about DPS so much. It can take months to return. In the coming weeks, periodically do the "sniff and pee" test to see if bladder control has returned. Most of all, just enjoy each other! :-) We look forward to your next update. Best wishes, ~Lisa
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Post by Regina & Sally on Mar 31, 2013 14:20:53 GMT -7
Hi Elagro and Jackson! My Sally had surgery 7 weeks ago. She also has no deep pain sensation. She does wag her tail tho... so I'm like you..very confused about this. We express her bladder and poop so she has very few accidents. I do PT on her at least twice a day for about 40 min each time. I ordered her a drag bag from handicapped pets to protect her from rug burn, etc. Her wheels should be here in the next couple of days from eddieswheels. Looking forward to getting her outside in her wheels but will never give up doing everything I can to help her walk again. Oh, and she has been seeing a vet acupunturist once a week since 4 days after her surgery. Let's keep each other posted on any changes. Regina
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Mar 31, 2013 19:57:40 GMT -7
Hi Regina and Sally, I'm still in shock about the whole thing just like you. Today I started to let Jackson roam around the house. I need to put a male wrap around him so that he doesn't leak urine. That happens although I'm consistent about getting him expressed on time. I tried the drag bag from handicapped pets but Jackson seemed really confined in it. He's doing okay dragging his legs behind him for now. I don't let him run around that much yet and we have mostly hardwood floors so he skids around. He lifts his back knees off the ground and is only touching the back of his paws. I'm waiting for him to just flip them and start running. But that will take a while. I'll be getting him fitted on Thursday for his wheels, also from Eddie's. My doctor told me to give Jackson all these different supplements which I orders. I gave him Curcuma, the spice tumeric. It's supposed to help with inflammation. He's taken it in yogurt. He eats anything. I'm trying to be patient for the time being. It gives me hope to know that some dogs got better months later. Do you think the acupuncture is helping Sally? I will keep you posted. He even was wagging. I'm not sure if it's reflex though.
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Post by natureluva on Apr 1, 2013 7:36:37 GMT -7
Elaine - love the photo. Did you prop him up in a standing position for the photo, or did he stand up on his own? I do see he has lack of proprioception (the "knuckling" of his left paw), but if he is pulling himself into this standing position, I'd say that is encouraging. There was no way-no how that my dog could've done that two months after his surgery. Regarding the acupuncture, I would watch for a change in his bladder control (the dribbling may stop, or he may even regain control after several sessions). Did Jackson react to the needles ok? ~Lisa
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Apr 1, 2013 13:38:45 GMT -7
Hi Lisa, I didn't prop Jackson up for this picture. Sometimes he's able to pull himself up like this. Not always though. I stopped crate rest on Saturday and have been letting him move more freely. Usually I put on his male wrap because we have had some accidents. I let him sniff around the yard to see if he'll pee on his own. No real luck yet. Jackson didn't love the needles. I bought him a bully stick for the next session. I'm afraid to keep my hopes up regarding the continence issue.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 18:19:37 GMT -7
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Apr 3, 2013 15:38:13 GMT -7
After seeing the video of Clarita I got really curious. I ran upstairs and filled the tub to the highest point and put Jackson in. He hates water. I got him to move his legs just like Clarita although his legs are kind of making X's. crossing over each other in a spastic sort of walk. That was very exciting.
Yesterday when I came home from work I bought him outside. While he was eating he flipped his feet up into a real standing position while eating and stayed that way while wagging his tail low. I was ecstatic! Today he actually walked a couple of steps. I can tell his hind legs are becoming more muscular. My question is, you wrote that the dogs regain their abilities in the reverse order. I don't think that Jackson has true deep pain nor has he regained continence of bladder or bowel. Have some dogs regained those abilities out of order? Thank you Elaine
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Apr 3, 2013 15:46:54 GMT -7
Awesome!!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 3, 2013 18:49:08 GMT -7
Elaine, you are witness to nerves on a roll and healing!! If he can walk, wag his tail then he naturally has to first have deep pain sensation to do those things. Deep pain sensation lies in the deepest part of the spinal cord is is most protected from damage.. it is the last neuro function to be lost.
Sometimes there can be a bit of variation with bladder control which is supposed to come before leg movement. Mother nature can sometimes get the wiring out of order. I would definately be taking Jackson outside to sniff an old pee spot in the grass. See if he then attempts a squat or leg lift and watch for urine coming out...that would be the beginnings of bladder control.
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Post by Regina & Sally on Apr 11, 2013 16:04:15 GMT -7
Hi Elaine, What a wonderful picture of Jackson standing to eat. He's way ahead of my Sally. She does not attempt to stand on her own. When I attempt to do standing exercises with her she immediately wants to take off as soon as I lift her rear. Sally's wheels are here. We did good measuring her... perfect fit. We do not put her in the cart for very long.. usually to go for a short walk and then she is back out. She doesn't like going in the yard so much with the cart because it is more work.. but she's building her strength up. Acupuncturist suggested we start water therapy. I am waiting on some information from this site and will start her out in the bathtub and then our pool once it warms up a bit. P.S. I finally figured out how to create Sally's thread to keep that updated and get information. Regina
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Apr 11, 2013 18:37:39 GMT -7
I know from personal experience, having had a laminectomy myself, that nerves can be very slow to regrow. It took over a year for me to regain the feeling in the outer toes and edge of my foot. I know my Polly still has some sensation deficit in her feet. I can pinch between the toes, and she doesn't completely feel it. It will come. I'm so happy for you that Jackson is improving. It's just wonderful to hear success stories!
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Apr 14, 2013 7:19:51 GMT -7
Hi everyone thanks for your most appreciated messages. Yesterday Jackson had his 3rd acupuncture session. He's getting used to it. He was zonked the rest of the day. (I was worried!). This morning feeling somewhat dispaired I brought him out back and he took 10-15 wobbly steps. That guy is going to be the death of me. I was really happy. After those steps he was tired and dragged himself around the yard some. Now he's resting.
I have a question. I noticed a bruise on his foot from dragging and have been bandaging his paws. Problem is that the bandages fall off. I want to buy him booties but don't know which ones. Does anyone have experience with dachshunds and booties? On handicappedpets.com they have booties but the shipping is almost as expensive as the booties.
Starting April 26 Jackson will be doing hydrotherapy. I couldn't get to everything right away as I'm graduating nursing school that day! Yay!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,552
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 14, 2013 11:11:34 GMT -7
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Apr 14, 2013 16:35:34 GMT -7
Hi Paula, Jackson just hangs in his sling and doesn't move his back legs. Only when I hold his tail up does he make actual leg movements. Twice a day i let him walk around the backyard while holding his tail. Under water he also moves his legs. Ill check into the links you sent. I noticed Eddies Wheels like Tammy's boots. I may call them tomorrow. Thanks
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Post by Elaine & Jackson on Apr 16, 2013 19:43:35 GMT -7
New update on Jackson. Even though his tail doesn't wag he passed the sniff and pee test today. Celebration! I took him around the block on his sling and when he got a good sniff I released the band and he peed. It wasn't from the pressure of the sling that caused him to pee. Later on I did it again and after a while he peed again. :-) it' s actually been two months since heis surgery.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 16, 2013 20:00:11 GMT -7
Elaine,
That is fabulous news about Jackson passing the sniff and pee test! Yes!
Very happy for you and Jackson!
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Apr 17, 2013 21:26:30 GMT -7
Two thumbs up!
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