Rudi's Luka 7/4 Conservative Neck Husky S. Africa

thank you. There is no way i can carry him. When i pick him up, he stresses and will hurt his back. Luka isnt a small dog, and i think picking him up will hurt him even more. I just asked the vet if the rimadyl will effect Luka's stomach, and the Doctor said that, as long as Luka eats before he takes a rimadyl, then he is fine. The doctors also said that i can actually take Luka for walks on a harness. As long as i dont let him jump on sofas or the bed, run, or make quick turns. I AM SO FRUSTRATED! Each doctor gives me a different answer. I just bought 1000mg Omega 3. The doctor also said i must only give 500iu's Vitamin E and not 1000iu's. So i asked the doctor if i should not maybe give 1000 omega and 1000 vitamin E,to level it out, and they said yes. I asked if it will affect his liver, and i got such a laid back reply.

Thank you for the advise marjorie. I will wait for the moderators, and if they are also concerned, i am calling the vet and im going to query the advise i have been receiving from them. There is NO WAY that i am going to stand for false advise. Not when it comes to Luka. thank you once again for taking the time to talk to me about this. i really appreciate it!!

Marjorie and Paula, thank you so much for the advise. Can't wait to view all those links Paula, I want to learn everything I can about this disease!

First of all Paula, I need to say that, I'm the one being overly concerned and trying to do extra when I'm not suppose to. My vet warned me NOT to give rimadyl and Petcam together. They told me to stick to rimadyl. Instead of giving him 100mg of rimadyl a day, rather give him 75mg in the morning and 75mg at night. They stressed that it needs to be AFTER meals, which I'm doing. So, I am sorry for the Petcam situation. What I have to add is that, I have only started giving the Petcam 2 days ago. So, it has not been that long. I will stop immediately.

To answer your question, Luka is 37kg's. The amount of Neurontin is got from the doctor, was 400mg (not sure if its mg, sorry). And they halved it for me. So its 200mg once a day, and they asked that I give this only at night. I've noticed that it does make him drowsy and slightly confused if you will, so I'm glad they said to only give it at night.

So to sum up, Luka is getting the following meds (and this was what the vet said I must give him):

1x 200mg neurontin at night
1x 75mg rimadyl twice a day
1x 1000 pure omega 3 fish oil once a day
1x 500iu Vitamin E once a day.

The vet said that I can give him 1000iu's of vitamin E once a day instead of 500iu's, but it puts allot of strain on the liver, so they do not recommend it.

Paula, you asked if Luka is showing signs of pain before I give neurontin. No, he doesn't show any signs at all. By this I mean, he's not yelping, or is reluctant to get up. What I can say is that, his hind legs do tend to shiver at night. Almost seems as if he's cold. That type of shiver. Don't know how else to put it. I then massage his legs and rub his back in a very light handed manner. I don't press or put pressure on his back, ever.

Paula, regarding the resting area (crate rest), I would like to add the following. When Luka does go the that enclosed area, he potty's, and goes straight back to his bed and lies down. Sometimes he even lies on the grass in the sun and sleeps. The amount of steps he take in the enclosed area, is not much at all, I can promise you that. When I get home, I ask him to lie down 95% of the time. So the only time he does get up, is when he potty's. The rest of the time, he lies down, and sleeps. Having said that, do I still need to make the space even smaller than what it already is? I really hope that the space I have created is okay, when he is in fact lying down most of the day and night. I understand that keeping him still and letting him only out when he needs to potty is crucial, but if he's already lying down most of the time, will it not be okay if I left the space as it is? if you still urge me to make the space even smaller, then I will do it, but I'd prefer not too.

Regarding the steps, I will have to make a plan about that. The ramp idea would be best and I agree that steps are a huge NO NO at this stage. I will build a ramp this weekend.

Regarding the doctor who looked at Luka, she is from Valley Farm Animal hospital in Pretoria South-Africa, www.valleyfarmvet.co.za. On her card it says the following:

Medicine Specialist. BVSc Hons MMedVet (Medicine). The reason I took Luka to this hospital, was because my previous vet, diagnosed Luka with Arthritis, and he was on Rimadyl and Mobiflex LD- for an entire year. save to say that we could have tried to prevent this slipped disc if we had know earlier on. Valley Farm did the MRI as well as X-rays. The first doctor who examined Luka and who took the X-rays, said that Luka might have DM. That night when I went to pick Luka up, the doctor who specialize in the medicine (mentioned above) examined Luka as well, and when she pressed on his lower back, he yelped. This then followed by an MRI which she highly recommended. She said that they would be able to get a better answer when an MRI was done.

She confirmed that you can't rule out DM, but that if/when they find a slipped disc, the chances of Luka having DM would be far less and that they could rather identify the problem as IVDD. And clearly it was shown on the MRI. They wrote "severe IVDD" on his records, but I guess severe IVDD would have resulted in paralysis? I wish they rather wrote, MILD IVDD.

Paula, I have to also add that, I called Valley Farm about 2 days after the MRI to speak to the head surgeon there. apparently he is a specialist in surgery (don't know all the lingo). I told him everything that the previous doctor said, and I asked him straight up, are you sure I should walk with Luka, and he said yes. Not more than 10 minutes a day. He sounded very sure of himself. I guess it all boils down to the fact that, he and the other doctors saw Luka. And Examined him, and thus the reason they gave me the advise they did. If I had to be honest with you Paula, Valley Farm is the best and most expensive place to treat animals. They are well known in SA, and are recommended by all the vets across the country. I don't have a clue about diseases and the medicines to be used etc, but I highly doubt Valley Farm will give me false advise. I don't know what else to say Paula. But I will say this. I appreciate each bit advise you and the other members gave me, but I am seriously confused. Because the advise I'm receiving from my vet compared to this forums advise is completely the opposite. And at this stage, I am growing increasingly scared, because I followed Luka's doctors advise, and I now learn that it might not be the best advise. The MRI and X-rays cost me almost R4000.00.

I just want to know that Luka will be fine and that this disc can be healed. The doctor also added that the disc cannot be healed, but that the cage rest with the meds will heal the inflammation. She said that no vitamins or meds will heal him, it will just help with the pain and keep him healthy. The rest part is the only thing that will help with the IVDD but that he will never heal completely. This makes me SO sad because I fully believe that he will heal.

What they possibly meant about Luka never healing, Rudi, is that IVDD is a lifelong disease. There is no cure for it. The disc that has herniated or slipped can, however, heal and the nerves damaged by the disc can heal. There is no severe or mild IVDD. If a dog has the disease, he has it. However, the damage the disc has caused can be severe or mild. Some dogs only have one disc episode in their lives. Others have two or more. There's no way of telling. But certainly, with the proper treatment, the disc can heal and the nerve damage can improve. The disc needs to scar over and will with limited movement. Movement causes the disc to tear and will un-do any healing that has taken place.

The description that you give of Luka in his restricted space - is that the way he always is or is that the way he has been since having a disc problem? Once he's feeling better and the swelling on the spine goes down, he might not be so content to stay in one place. We've heard far too many people say that they never expected their dog to ... jump, run, fall... and now their dog is re-injured. While Luka may usually rest a lot, you can't take the chance of the unexpected. What is someone unknown would come to the house? A squirrel? There could be a number of scenarios that might cause a problem. It only takes one run around the yard to cause a re-injury or a worsening of Luka's condition. As Paula said, if you can set up an ex-pen with just enough room for Luka to stand up, turn around and lie down with his legs extended and with a little extra space for a pee pad, that would be best, both inside and outside of the house. None of us like to see our dogs confined. But it is in their best interest and it is the type of treatment their back needs. Like I mentioned before, think of the confined area as a cast for their back. Movement needs to be limited.

The information contained on Dodgerslist is information that has been accumulated by owners of dogs with IVDD and the knowledge that they have obtained through experience over many years. All of that information has been reviewed and approved of by vets knowledgeable about IVDD. If there is a conflict between what we're saying here and what your vet is telling you, do your research. Search online and see what you can find on credible websites to support what is being said by either. I know from my own experience from living with an IVDD dog for the past 1-1/2 years, I would trust Dodgerslist over anything a vet tells me because they are the experts in this particular field and they have always led me correctly where vets have not.

I meant to mention before that the rubber shoes for Luka are a very good idea so he doesn't slip.

More knowledge on your part will clear up a lot of confusion in your mind. The internet is a great source of information.

One last thing. You see a conflict between the strict crate rest we're advocating and the walks that the vet says are OK. We're saying the walks are dangerous. The vet is not saying that crate rest is dangerous. He hasn't told you that would be harmful. You might look at it that a conservative approach of crate rest will not cause harm and may be of benefit so that should be the approach you should take. Why take the risk?

There is a very good article on Dodgerslist about supplements for IVDD that you might be interested in reading also:

www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htm

Hi Rudi, my name is Maureen. I totally understand your frustration at getting conflicting information. When in doubt, I would suggest that you err on the side of caution. I am a Retired Vet Tech and I can tell you that it is impossible for the Vets to know everything about every disease, no matter how hard they try. You are doing such a good job learning about IVDD and how to care for Luka - who is absolutely beautiful by the way!! You are on the right track with building a ramp, and restricting his space so that he doesn't move so much. Pepcid is a a great way to protect him from the effects that the medications may have on his stomach and the easiest way is to ask the Vet "is there any medical reason that Luka should not take it?"
There are some success stories that you can read in the Updates Section when you get time - people that have big dogs - Jude with Penny Laine the Rottweiler and Tony with Buddy the Lab.
Hope this helps a bit
Keeping you in thought and prayer

Please don't be concerned about the muscle loss. That will come back once he's up and about again after crate rest. Since he's not paralyzed and does get up and move some now, he is moving those muscles a bit. Here are some gentle, passive exercises you can do for Luka.

www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm

Please only do the exercises highlighted in pink - Nos. 1-4. The other exercises listed on this page are only for AFTER crate rest.

Please keep us posted on Luka's progress. All the best to you both.

Rudi, we have had several from South Africa join us here on the Forum.. so we are glad you found us too.

I'm not familiar with the credential designations in your country.  It seems BVSc would be a general vet which here is a DVM.  Dr. van der Merwe has a specialist degree small animal medicine and Dr. Zee a specialists degree in orthopedic surgery.  I would be inclined to question Dr. Zee more about the disc problem.  We always find hearing information from either a neuro or an ortho specialist is far more reliable regarding IVDD than from other medical specialists or the local general DVM vet here in the USA.

Many times the diagnosis is a generic term "disc problem" or even here it has been called IVDD to some members with large breed dogs.  I would want to know from the ortho, Dr. Zee, if Luka was born with intervertebral disc disease. With IVDD the disc degenerates prematurely already at 6 months old and begins to bulge at the point the disc becomes too aged approximately 3-7 years old but could be any age too.  IVDD is usually found in the small breeds with short legs, dwarfed legs.. big word term is: chondrodystrophoid dogs.  Or does Luka have another disease that can affect the discs but may require a different treatment…such as walking about is OK.  For example Wobblers is one such disease. I'm not saying Luka has it, I am just giving you an example so you see we have to be specific in exactly which disc related disease she has.  Wobblers is a disease of the vertebrae bones not the disc.  The discs are perfectly healthy, it is the unstable vertebra which are the problem..they are squishing the disc and causing pressure on the spinal cord.  Crate rest with Wobblers is not of help.

Until you are certain it is not IVDD, you have to be cautious and go ahead to protect the disc by being very strict with rest.  The good thing is they took an MRI, the gold standard type of image, and have the ability to give the best diagnosis. You, yourself, just have to have a full understanding of exactly what you are dealing with…which disc related disease.

So until you know otherwise with a different diagnosis than IVDD, the reason to do strict limited movement is to prevent the disc from further tears and the potential neuro damage of loss of bladder control or paralyzed  legs. Muscle bulk can quickly be regained after crate rest is over when it is safe to resume physical activity. If the spinal cord were to be severely damaged from too much movement during conservative treatment, nerve functions might be permanent and Luka would be paralyzed for the rest of her life.  So it is an easy decision, protection of the spinal cord takes precedence over muscle atrophy.

We are here to support you if this is IVDD.  Dodgerslist is narrowly focused on IVDD.  It  really is our only
experience and expertise were we feel we have creditable information to share.  Thus we are dependent on a diagnosis from an IVDD knowledgeable vet as a basis for our support.

About the shivering legs at night… is that happening nearing the dose of Neurontin or some time after the dose?  If you cover with a blanket does it stop?  Shivering may be muscle spasms… you might discuss with your vet methocarbamol to deal with that type of pain often associated with a disc episode.  As always, we recommend to read up on meds your dog might take or does take: www.marvistavet.com/html/methocarbamol.html

Let  us know you have stomach protection on board.  Previous South African members have said it is hard to find Pepcid AC (famotidine)…it may  go by different brand names: Famocid, Famonit , Gastrodomina, Pepdine.  Do ask you pharmacist by the generic name: famotidine.   It will likely be an Rx item too.  Zantac (Rantidine) may be over the counter in S.A.  Do consult with your vet about being proactive not waiting til there is a stomach issue…then can come on without warning. We see too often dogs suffering when it could have been warded off by being proactive.  Dogs are not people… they lack the enzymes humans have and thus there is a smaller margin of safety when using NSAIDs with dogs … More from the Dr. Clark-Price: vetmed.illinois.edu/petcolumns/petcols_article_page.php?PETCOLID=467&URL=0

Rudi, I can feel your frustration. It is just that we often find specialists here may lump disc type things under one term. Leaving Dodgerslist with the wrong impression. I know when you get a diagnosis so often there are a lot of new terms that are hard to sort out. Let 's face it most owners just want the bottom line and not all the details. But as you can see here we are a group who LOVE the details, we depend on them. I'm glad you will ask for a more indepth explanation from Dr. Zee so you know what you are dealing with. The more we understand our dog's disease, whatever it might be…the better able we are to care for them and make the right decisions. Also same as with our own personal doctors, we may need to seek a 2nd opinion and there is no shame in that, it is done all the time. See if there is a neuro specialist in your area to look at Dr. Zee's MRI and do a 2nd hands on neuro exam if you are not getting the kind of information you want.

We remain here to support you any way we can with the current diagnosis of IVDD.

Thank you Paula. I appreciate your advise allot!!

Good to hear that you got a firm diagnosis from a great Vet! Wishing you all the best

Hi Paula.

Thank you. That image helps allot.

No, Luka has been on the rimadyl for over a year now. As mentioned before. Our previous vet diagnosed Luka with Arthritis. And for that, they put him on 100M rimadyl a day. It was this same vet that said i can give petcam as well. And it was this same vet that said he need MobiFlex LD.

Obviously i got much better answers at Valley farm, and even better answers from Dr Hans van der Zee. ValleyFarm said that they have dogs that have been on rimadyl for many many years.

Luka is now on 75mg rimadyl twice a day.

His leg still shivers slightly when he lies down and he is awake. When he sleeps, the leg is fine.

He doesnt show signs of pain. But i guess that is because of the rimadyl. When he stands for about 5 minutes, his back legs do show weakness and he slowly goes into some sort of a sitting posision. hes not aware of this though and after about a minute or so, he realizes that his not standing upright, and he corrects himself. I asked Dr vd Zee if this might be the massive muscle loss that is actually making his hind legs weak, and he did say that it contributes to this lowering of the body when standing. But the main reason is the nerves that are being pinched. I hope this is so.

Dr vd Zee also said that the body will try and heal the nerves?? But i dont know how this works. Do the disc actually heal?? Or will Luka always have this weakness in the hind legs? Or how does this work. I did not want to ask Dr vd Zee too many questions as i know he is in and out of surgery every day. He mentioned that after some time Luka might heal completely.

Luka is extremely sensitive on his hind feet and do these kicks when i touch the hair underneath his feet. In other words, he is very ticklish. I see this as a good sign?

No, i have not purchased any stomach meds yet. Will do soon.

Ill send photos of the ramp when done. Actually asked my architect friend to design this ramp. Going ALL out for Luka.

Paula, i follwed the following link: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm for Passive therapy. But it doesnt really help me because Luka is not down or paralyzed. The page says the following: Dogs on conservative treatment crate rest who are not paralyzed are able to move around a bit in the crate and at potty time to keep their joints and muscles toned. No additional therapy is necessary.

I know i can build the muscle after the resting period, but because Luka is 11, i know that physical exercise is of great importance to keep his system healthy and blood pumping. What can i do to keep those joints and limbs healthy, and keep HIM healthy overall? I know passive range of motion exercises such as stretching the legs and moving them in a circular motion is good, but what else can i do?? Bare in mind, im literally trying every single thing i can do to keep him fit and happy. I try and massage him when i can, but, im scared that when i massage his back, the disc will push against the spine even more. Dr van der Zee is very relaxed about Luka's condition and i know im driving everyone mad with all my questions and concerns, but i think this is helping me learn the do's and dont's and the what ifs and what not's

Hi Paula,

I'm giving Luka 4 more weeks to rest. Maybe 5. He's been going for 4 weeks already.

Dr liesel said that, whatever signs Luka is showing after 8 weeks, will be the signs or issues ill be stuck with onwards. In other words, after 8 weeks, the results I see is what I have to deal with. If he is still weak after 8 weaks, then I've gotta deal with it. And you know what, I have not settled for that answer yet. And I seriously think its a very bad answer to give to a pet owner. And thus the reason I went to Dr VD Zee. Funny how each vet or doctor gives his or her opinions in a totally different way.

I think it would be best to rather test the waters without the meds after 5 more weeks. As mentioned, he still shows signs of his hind leags being weak or getting tires quickly. And when he walks, he does sometimes have a slight delayd response. But this rarely happens, maybe after lying down for some time. I am very scared because of these signs of weakness, and ill keep on believing that it'll pass and that it is just the disc that's pinching the nerve causing this delayd reaction. Ill believe what Dr VD Zee told me, that it takes time to heal. Its a serious battle for me as well because me and Luka use to take walks almost every day, morning and night. We use to play and have fun, and now, I have to watch his every step. And all of this, happened in a matter of a month. The weakness, the shaky legs, the delayed walk. All in a month. Its really amazing how calm and collected Dr VD Zee is. So laid back, not worried about a thing. And here I am, a total nervous wreck, thinking, what if Luka has DM, and Dr VD Zee is not seeing the signs of DM like I am. Are the signs I'm seeing even that bad, are they even signs of a desease? I'm totaly paranoid. Going to give this time, and wait. Ill support Luka where ever and how ever I can. But I hope time is on our side and that ill bring good health to Luka.

Again, Dr Liesel said she can't see any Arthritis. The previous vet did. The previous vet even saw a slight crack in his one joint. Dr Liesel couldn't see anything. So, I guess this is one of those episodes where I just pick a vet that I think is talking greater truth, and I follow exactly what they say. The whole reason for all of my questions throughout this entire thread, is because of so many vets giving me their own versions of what they think Luka has and what Luka does not have. Its terrible!

We have seen 1000's of dogs over a 10 year span that when given time for nerve healing to happen, it does. So here at Dodgerslist we never give up hope for nerve healing as it can take more than 8 weeks. Think even in terms of months or close to a year. It would be great if Luka is back to normal in 8 weeks, but that is not the focus…it is the healing of the disc.

Aug 29 will be Luka graduation. Meds (neurontin and Rimadyl) need to be stopped before then to have proper assessment on pain. Pain means there is still swelling the Rimadyl needs to work on. IF there is no pain, then no more meds at all are needed to help with spinal cord swelling. And if she does not have arthritis as the one Dr. said, then of course she surely does not need Rimadyl.

Let us know when you and your vet have stopped all of her meds and what you observe for pain. Leg weakness, delayed paw reaction is nerve damage and no meds will repair that….just the body's ability to self heal and time… likely more time than just 8 weeks.

We look forward to your next report of being off meds (neurontin and Rimadyl) to test the waters and what you observe regarding pain. Stay positive because it IS in the cards for Luka to get back to enjoying those daily walks again after graduation day!