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Post by kaisersmom on Jul 18, 2013 19:28:25 GMT -7
My little guy is almost 10 and is a miniature doxie. His name is Kaiser. He weighs about 10.8 lbs. For the last year, he has had 3 other episodes of what seemed like back pain. He was put on carprofen and methocarbamol and was better in a few days. I had no idea he should be on crate rest. About a week and a half ago, he started acting strange again, like he was in pain. He would get better for a day and then back to not wanting to do anything. His vet was booked out, so I took him to another vet this past Tuesday. The vet gave him a shot of Depo Medrol. This morning when Kaiser woke up and moved, he cried out in pain. His legs were wobbly and he was stiff and had a hard stomach. I drove to his regular vet, and they put him on Tramadol and Methocarbamol. They said they could not put him back on Carprofen due to the steroid shot the other vet gave him. He is completely out of it now. I have been able to get him to eat some and drink some water, but he will not even try to stand. I was able to get him outside to do his business this afternoon. He is scheduled for a recheck on Sunday at 1:00 pm, but I am to bring him in sooner if he is worse. They plan to do xrays then. He had xrays done back in March, but the vet said she didn't see anything significant enough to be overly concerned about. I am heartbroken with fear of losing my little guy. He sleeps with me every night and has only been away from me for the two days I was in the hospital to have my daughter in 2009. Other than that he has been by my side every day for the last 7 years. I left him with my mom a couple of times prior to that, but not often.
Can anyone offer any advice?
Forgive me if I've posted this wrong. I had no idea where to begin. It seems I am forum impaired.
Thanks for your help.
Gina
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Post by jochs311 on Jul 18, 2013 20:01:24 GMT -7
Hi Gina, my name is Jen. I'm so sorry you are going through another episode with Kaiser. Please be sure he is on 100% strict crate rest only out to potty. Please take the time to read as much as you can here. There is a wealth of knowlage to be learned about disc disease here. Please stay positive. Sending healing thoughts and positive prayers your way.
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Post by nenaz73 on Jul 18, 2013 20:28:13 GMT -7
I know this must be very difficult. But I do agree read as much as you can here you can get so much info. And keep Kaiser crated up. Good luck and send you positive vibes!!
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Post by Pauliana on Jul 18, 2013 21:27:27 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Gina, you posted just fine! Please let Kaiser know with your utmost confidence that things are going to be ok…because they will. With this disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The unknown is simply a scary place. Get ready to fight this disease now and in the future by knowing all things IVDD. There is no better place to start than on our main web page with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm Your vet was right, there needs to be a 4-7 washout when changing from a Steroid to a NSAID such as Carprofen.. In order to help you more, could you please answer these questions? -- What was the date you saw the vet and started the all important 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for 8 weeks. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM)? This is one of the most important things to do for Kaiser and will make all the difference to his recovery. It is lack of movement that will heal the disc and the spine.. Pain medication can mask the pain, and NSAIDS or Steroids deal with the inflammation but it is lack of movement that will do the main part of the healing. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm-- Is there still currently pain - shivering, shaking, crying when picked up or moved? -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID. Pepcid is generally considered a safe-over-the-counter suppressor of stomach acid production for a healthy dog and good insurance. Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory is in alpha order: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/stomachProtection.htm-- Can your dog move the legs at all or wag the tail due when you do some happy talk? The very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm-- Can your dog sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? Helpful videos with tips on expressing both urine and poop: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm-- Eating and drinking OK? -- Poops OK - normal color and firmness no dark or bright red blood? Laser light therapy, acupuncture and electroacupuncture which sends a microcurrent of electricity to and from acupuncture points (which are really big nerve bundles), can be very beneficial at helping to re-establish the nerve connections in the body. Any one of these therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration. Find a holistic vet here: ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] NOTE: Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. Sending healing prayers for Kaiser and lots of comfort for you. I do know what you are going through.. My Tyler had surgery for disc herniation nearly 6 months ago and he is now having back pain again.. and is on crate rest for 8 weeks.. We'll get through it and so will you and Kaiser!! |
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Post by kaisersmom on Jul 19, 2013 9:20:30 GMT -7
Thank you all for your help.  Pauliana, I will answer everything that I know as of now. Kaiser has been to the vet for this four times since November. The other three times were less severe, and he was prescribed methocarbamol and carprofen all three times. He was better in a few days, but he was never crated. Now I know that this is important. The vet never mentioned it before. This episode, #4, started about a week and a half ago. He would get better for a day or two and then back to not wanting to move. Monday night, I got out his lease, and he just flat out refused to move and went to his bed to sleep. I had to pick him up to take him to bed with me. I was afraid he would get up and try to jump up on his stool to get to my bed. Now I know not to let him sleep with me. Crate it is. Tuesday, 7-16-13, I had to take him to another vet because his vet could not work him in. The vet gave him Depo Medrol 10 mg. injection. The receipt shows Depo Medrol 20 mg/ml per CC, QTY .50. Thursday, 7-18-13, I took Kaiser to his vet because he yelped quite loudly when he woke up and tried to move. He had never done this before. I had to see a new vet at his vet's office, but she seems to want to help. She put Kaiser on the following: Methocarbamol 500 mg. .25 tablet two times daily Tramadol 50 mg. .25 tablet two times daily. She said he cannot take the carprofen since he had the steroid injection. Friday, 7-19-13, I called the vet and asked about the Pepcid AC. She said he can take .25 tablet two times daily. They are doing a recheck on Sunday. He does not seem to be shivering, shaking, or crying today. He can stand and take a few steps when I take him outside. He wags his tail when he's outside with me to go potty, but doesn't do it inside. Today, he does seem more alert and watches me a lot. He is able to squat and release urine; however, he has been licking a lot after urinating. I had originally thought he had a UTI, but the urinalysis done on Tuesday ruled that out.When I went outside to walk my other dog last night, Kaiser go out of his bed and ate dinner. He did not try to get up again until about 11:00 a.m. this morning. I had his crate door open and was sitting on the floor playing with my daughter. She pointed at him and I looked to see him coming towards me. I thought he might have to potty, so I took him out. He did not, so I put him back in the crate. His poops seem normal. As I mentioned, he is able to squat, but he gets a little wobbly. His back legs do not seem to be in their normal standing position when he stands. I just peeped in at him, and he is sound asleep on his back. He hasn't been on his back in several days. I appreciate all of your help. Thank you so much. Gina and Kaiser |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 19, 2013 9:58:23 GMT -7
Good to hear your vet respects the guidelines to not use a NSAID close to when a steroid has been used. Depo Medrol (Methylprednisolone ) is a long lasting steroid so that by now there should be reduction of the med in his body. It is on the reduction of an anti-inflammatory that you want to watch for signs of pain indicating there is still more swelling the steroid needs to address and the need to stay on a steroid for a bit longer. Usually the pain meds will also be backed off a bit to have a clear picture on the inflammation/swelling. Because he yelped yesterday and pain meds needed to be prescribed, this indicates that steroid used should have been continued as there was still swelling. Oral Prednisone pills for home use are prescribed most often. Often it takes being at the anti-inflamamtory dose of prednisone (5mg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. Read up on inflammation www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm then advocate and discuss with your vet the pros and cons of Kaiser going without an antiinflammatory for 4-7 days as a washout (I'm assuming your vet wants to switch to Carprofen?). If there is pain the inflammation needs to be addressed…swelling is what damages the nerves in the spinal cord and the need to get it down as soon as possible.  |
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Post by kaisersmom on Jul 19, 2013 11:40:41 GMT -7
Hi Paula. The vet told me yesterday that Kaiser cannot have carprofen for at least a month since the other vet gave him the Depo Medrol injection. Is this correct?
Thank you.
Gina and Kaiser
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 19, 2013 18:08:28 GMT -7
Vets who practice safe medicine look for a 4-7 day washout between NSAIDs <----> steroids, not a month. I hope in the whirlwind of emotions, with the new disc episode you just heard wrong. Please get on the phone and discuss this. If there is still swelling/pain then it makes sense to continue with a steroid and not have to wait out the washout days before switching to the other class of anti-inflammatories….NSAIDs. Also when there are neuro diminishents such as wobbly walking, steroids are often used over a NSAID. Let us know what you and your vet decide on.
All anti-inflammatories carry side effects and should be used with caution and safety. Often bloodwork is tested to check the health of organs. The stomach is protected when on any anti-inflamamatory by using Pepcid AC (5mg 30 mins before)
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Post by kaisersmom on Jul 19, 2013 18:31:24 GMT -7
Thanks Paula. We just started on the Pepcid tonight. The vet told me to give him .25 of a 10mg tablet 2X a day...probably because he is getting medicine 2 X a day. I have a bottle of carprofen from the last episode, and the vet actually wrote on it that Kaiser cannot have for 1 month due to the steroid injection. She told me the injection will stay with him for up to 6 weeks. We are going in for a follow up on Sunday. I will not get to see the vet I like, but will be seeing the medical director. Not sure I like her or trust her. I have another doxie that may have anal gland cancer. We did a sample for a cytology report, and the findings from the pathologist stated that the sample was not good enough to make a determination. The vet/medical director did not tell me this. She told me the next step was to remove the anal glands and it was about $1,500. Nonetheless, it has made me not trust her too much, but I will put it aside for Kaiser's recheck. Poor guy wanted out of that kennel bad tonight. I have to move it to every room I go in because he's used to being right by my side. I think I miss him more! lol Thanks for the help and information. Gina and Kaiser |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 19, 2013 19:20:00 GMT -7
So this vet would have no anti-inflammatory on board when Kaiser yelped yesterday…she only prescribed pain meds which do nothing to address swelling??? Getting swelling down as soon as possible is important. It is pressure on the spinal cord that causes damage to the nerves and diminishment or loss of nerve functions. She is willing to wait a month before putting the other class of anti-inflammatory on board, she is not willing to stay with a steroid, prednisone which is a pill form to use at home? As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions . As nerve healing takes place, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle 5. Legs do not work (paralysis, dog is down) 6. Bladder control is lost 7. Tail wagging with joy is lost 8. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, Kaiser is dependent on your abilities. Ability to read about the disease and the ability to advocate for the care he needs. Have you been able to start your self education program here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmPlease read this page and consider hiring a vet who knows IVDD. Do you have another clinic in town? A vet you can trust and one you see knows IVDD and can support you and Kaiser will make all the difference in the world they are out there: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm |
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Post by kaisersmom on Jul 24, 2013 18:53:53 GMT -7
Hello All.
I took Kaiser in for a follow up, and they want him to remain on the Tramadol and Methocarbamol. He is also taking Pepcid now...thank you for that suggestion. He is crated as well. I talked to the vet about the window of time before giving another steroid and/or anti-inflammatory after his Depo Medrol injection. He received the injection on July 16th, and the vet still says we need to wait 30 days. She said they once saw the window as 4-7 days, but believe it is much longer now. We have another follow up scheduled for August 1st. Of course, I am to bring him in immediately if he gets worse.
God has been answering prayers because he can stand, walk, and relieve himself. Thank you all for your help, guidance, information, and most of all prayers.
Gina and Kaiser |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 25, 2013 8:30:32 GMT -7
Is his pain fully under control currently dose to dose of the pain meds tramadol and methocarbamol? He is his usual perky self, not reluctance to move in his crate, no shivering, trembling or yelping?
Changing to a NSAID would require a washout. Staying in the same class of steroids and using Prednisone would not require a washout. So there are options to have an anti-inflammatory on board as well as adjustments to pain meds if you see Kaiser is in pain.
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Post by kaisersmom on Jul 25, 2013 15:35:21 GMT -7
Hi Paula.
Kaiser does not seem to be in pain. He is not reluctant to stand or walk; however, I have noticed that he seems to slide a little on our hardwood floors. I am going to have to get some area rugs. We are 100% hardwood.
Today, my four year old daughter did a bad thing! The heating/air contractor was here, so Kaiser was in the crate in another room. My daughter thought she should unlock the crate and led Kaiser out of the bedroom. He came in the living room running full speed and bit the repair man's pants...twice! :0 I apologize profusely, but the whole thing was crazy.
Earlier this morning when I took Kaiser out, he decided to make a run for it after he did his business. I had to chase him through the back yard. I noticed that he loses footing a little when walking on an uneven surface, such as mulch. The little guy has the mental desire to go, go go.
He's still on Tramadol and Methocarbomol 2X daily, along with Pepcid. His next checkup is 8/1.
Thanks to everyone. God bless you all, and I pray your furbabies are doing well.
Gina and Kaiser
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Jul 25, 2013 20:21:14 GMT -7
He should always be on a leash when you take him outside to potty. You never know what might catch his eye...a squirrel, or whatever, and he could really hurt himself. Another idea is to use a sling on his back end, more for control than support.
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Post by jochs311 on Jul 25, 2013 20:42:52 GMT -7
Oh boy. I've noticed as Tucker has started to regain his mobility he has the desire to go go go. You have to have a harness and leash on while he is out to potty to be sure he takes it easy outside.
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Post by kaisersmom on Jul 26, 2013 19:51:55 GMT -7
I have tried using a sling to help Kaiser when we go out to potty, but that makes him so nervous that he will refuse to go. He will be on his leash from now on. I have tried several harnesses on Kaiser, but he manages to step out of them. Does anyone recommend one that is good for miniature doxies? Hope everyone is doing well. Gina and Kaiser |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 27, 2013 11:36:14 GMT -7
On the main dodgerlist web page you will find two harnesses that may work for Kaiser www.dodgerslist.com/links.htm The key in a harness is the fit. I know I had to try several brands and each of my dogs ended up with a different one.  |
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