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Post by gimpyeskimo on Jul 5, 2013 11:52:19 GMT -7
New to board. My American Eskimo dog Charlie --30lbs and about 5 or 6 years old (rescue) started having an odd walk in early May. He was ever so slightly limping on his right front leg. I live where there are lots of Lyme disease ticks. He was on natural Sergeants flea and tick and also an Rx tick collar (Preventic) I had found an engorged tick on him in late April. I suspected Lyme disease. Took him to vet 1st week of May. Vet tested for Lyme antibody (negative) and then put him on Rimadyl. The Rimadyl did not do a thing. Vet said maybe false negative on Lyme so put him on Doxycycline. After a week on that no change- limp getting worse. Not Lyme. He went in to have xrays of legs and neck in early June. Vet saw nothing wrong but told me to put him in harness - no collar . Told me to make appointment with canine orthopedist. I had to wait 3 weeks to get into see the canine orthopedist. She said she would need to do a 2 thousand dollar MRI for a definative diagnosis plus the fix was going to be surgery for disc in the neck area and that would be an additional 5 or 6 thousand dollars. When I decided I could continue breathing (after the financial shock) I said " Are there any other treatments available?" She then said "well I have other patients waiting. You could put him on steroids and see what happens" She said she would call in RX for prednisone but to wait a week because he had just stopped Rimadyl and that has to be out of of the dog for 4 - 7 days before the prednisone. She never bothered to call in RX. I had to have my regular vet do it. He can hop on 3 legs but he holds him right paw up in air. He is on prednison, methylcarbamol (muscle relaxer) and that stomach protectant. I do some crate retriction - he hates his crate and moves more trying to get out. I carry him outside to potty No jumping. I am sleeping on floor so he does not jump on bed. He is sleeping most of day. He does not whine but he does not want me to touch his right foot/paw. .
I read about that nerve root signature (they hold up one front paw when they have that) When I asked my regular vet about that today my vet had never heard of that condition. I was kinda troubled that he had never heard of that. He is about 60 years old. Should I find a new regular vet??
He said to continue with conservative AND THAT MY DOG WAS NOT A CANDIDATE FOR SURGERY BECAUSE HE CAN WALK and that surgery was no guarantee. Dog could blow another disc after the 6 thousand dollar surgery. I feel between rock and hard place. I love my dog but 7 or 8 thousand in vet bills would be insanely expensive for me and probably many of you as well.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335 
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Post by StevieLuv on Jul 5, 2013 12:41:06 GMT -7
Conservative treatment is a viable option! Hi, my name is Maureen what's yours? Can you give us a list and the dosages of his medications. Crate rest depends on 100% restriction - if he is fighting the crate you can try an expen or playpen. A moderator should be on soon - I am at work and don't have my quick links available to help you navigate this site. There is alot of good ingo here so read, read, read  Please know that you are not alone anymore- we are all here for you and willhelp you however we can. Keeping ou in thought and prayer |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 5, 2013 18:01:05 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. My name is Paula what is yours? Root signature pain still involves a disc pressing. Instead of pressing on the spinal cord, it is pressing off one of the nerve roots coming off the spinal cord going to the right front leg. it is quite possible for Charlie to heal, the big IF on that is really, really restricted movement so the disc can heal. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the neck from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe from other pets and kids from bothering them. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm There are some extra things you can do to help Charlies neck disc:http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htm Can you fill us in on some details so we better know how to support you: -- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? -- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? What is the name of the all important stomach protector, Pepcid AC? -- Eating and drinking OK? -- Poops OK - normal color, firmness, no dark or bright red blood? -- If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.htmlWe look forward to learning more about Charlie with your answers. |
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Post by gimpyeskimo on Jul 5, 2013 20:58:57 GMT -7
My name is Mary. I am not sure why it says 6/26ish in the Thread post. The dosages my 30 lb dog is currently on are
Sucralfate 1 gm tablets .( the stomach protector) I make into slurry with a little water and mix with kibble in morning.
then I set timer for 20 minutes.
Next 7.5 mg of prednisone. Once a day in am.
Methocarbamol (muscle relaxer) 500 mg tablets twice a day.
I also give him Prosense Glucosamine Joint Care Advnced - over the counter dog supplement.
If there is thunderstorm, fireworks he also gets Valium as long as it is a couple hours after the Methocarbamol.Vet said that was OK. He is frantic with thunderstorms or fireworks. 4th of July was horrible and I locked him in crate so he could not run around. Valium doesn't settle him much.
He hops on three legs. He holds his right front leg like pointing for prey. I can pick him up and he does not yelp. He is not trembling. He does not want me to touch his front legs/ paws. Eating and pooping are fine.
It progressed from slight limp to hopping on three legs in 6weeks.
He has an airline crate -- not the wire type.
My vet said very few vets do myleograms anymore which is more affordable than MRI . It is all MRI
Neither the regular vet nor the orthopedist - ( who wanted me gone as soon as I balked at surgery cost) said anything about crate restriction. I also had to ask my vet for the Sucralfate -- I said dont you want to protect his stomach from the prednisone with Pepcid AC or something. I also had to ask for the Methocarbamol muscle relaxer. About 8 years ago I had a Pembrook Welsh Corgi (long back) with an almost ruptured disc. I remembered the muscle relaxer and crate rest.
He has been on the prednisone and other drugs for 10 days. I feel bad the vet didn't put him on Pred at the beginning of May- when the limp started but he and I thought it was Lyme disease. Steroids and infections are not a good combination.
American Eskimo dogs are a very active breed. Hyper. Charlie had been jumping all over the place ever since I got him 1.5 years ago. On and off bed , couch . I was not concerned because not a long backed dog and Eskies were used as Circus dogs for years due to their jumping ability. I know better now. He also was a rescue because he was jumping over previous owners 6 foot backyard fence and roaming.
Very helpful website and forum. Thank you.
Mary
PS helpful contribution-- If you joing Walgreen Family RX saving Club you can get discounted RX for your dog.
That is what I am doing now. $8 for most generics. Walmart is cheaper but Walgreens is a lot closer to me and you can use the drive though. .
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 6, 2013 7:31:34 GMT -7
Mary, we use the date in the subject line to let us know when true conservative treatment was started. True conservative treatment is medications PLUS 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out of the recovery suite to go potty. So I guess from what you are saying he still is not on real conservative treatment until this weekend when you put him in the crate for fireworks?
Most dogs do not tolerate an airline crate. Can you obtain a wire crate as it has more visibility for the 8 weeks of rest. The space should be only large enough to stand up, turn around and why lying down to fully stretch out his legs. We also recommend ex-pens, but since you say he is a very good jumper…an ex-pen would not do for Charlie
Has the prednisone been reduced (tapered) from an original higher initial dose OR has he always been on a 1x a day dose of 7.5 mgs?
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Post by gimpyeskimo on Jul 6, 2013 11:38:55 GMT -7
He was in his crate all last night. Right now he is under the bed. I bought the "sand castle" plastic bucket bed risers they sell at Walmart for $8.00 It raises the bed 8 more inches. That way no bending to get under the bed. That is his favorite place to sleep. Of course now I am like the Princess and the Pea and if I fall off the bed I am going to be the one with herniated disc. I am going shopping for wire crate today. Airline crate only works at night. Realize I had NO help from either regular vet or orthopedist on how to do conservative. Your help great. I even had to call to ask for muscle relaxer and stomach protector meds. Vets wife (also a vet and also retiring this week call them in. I really need to change vets because I really dont have a treatment plan (how long on Pred and muscle relaxers etc ) for Charlie and my current vet misdiagnosed my dog with Lyme and didn't do x rays right away and I believe had he gotten a cortisone shot back in May he wouldn't be limping now. My vet is also in semi retirement and just sold his practice to a young vet last week. I just found that out last week. Charlie and I are sort of falling through the vetinary cracks. There is an older vet in next town who does acupuncture so I was going to go to him.
My current vet said yesterday when I took Charlie in to see him that Charlie could still hop on 3 legs so he didn't need surgery. He was very blase about it. I said well he cant put weight on one front leg and is holding it like a wet noodle (paresis). I felt like saying hey wait a minute buster you charged me $900 over the last month and misdiagnosed my dog and he is getting worse. And you didn't push to get Charlie in sooner to orthopedist. I had to wait 3 weeks.
The prednisone once a day 7.5 mg since Thursday June 27th. I used to have asthmatic kid so I know about taper.
Anyway my plan is to get and assemble wire crate today. Call to get in to see new vet with acupunture and also I have decided to have MRI done but not surgery. I want to know exactly what is wrong and if there are other discs involved and what my options are.
Anyway it is very upsetting to see my beautiful white dog lame and realizing treatment could be in the thousands and I am worried that he will never walk normally again.
My previous dog, a corgi died 2 years ago from Degenerative Myelopathy and was in wheelchair for 2 years. My vet also missed the diagnosis of DM. He thought it was Cushings.
Admittedly DM is hard to spot in beginning and no cure anyway.
Mary
Mary
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 6, 2013 15:06:19 GMT -7
It does make a world of difference when you hire an IVDD knowledgeable vet. This is one of the reasons to get up to speed as quickly as possible so you can recognize a knowledgeable vet, know when harmful advice is being given and say "no thank you" Do no have an MRI done lightly. With conservative treatment you do not need to know the exact disc involved…all discs are rested. MRIs require anesthesia. The dog's primary defense against further disk damage is dependent upon adequate control over the trunk muscles – this defense is eliminated with anesthesia. So I would try true conservative treatment, if there is improvement on the pain of holding his leg flamingo style, then you know you chose the right treatment. IF you are not going to do surgery, then why select a $1000+ picture? MRIs are used as a planning tool for the surgical procedure. If Charlie can't resolve his pain with conservative treatment, then perhaps an MRI would help to understand if there is something else going on or if disc surgery would need to be a consideration so as not to have a life of pain. It is all guess work as to how long to stay on Pred. When a vet guesses pred may have gotten on the swelling down, he will try a taper. During the time on the anti-inflammatory the pain meds do need to be adjusted so that there is no pain surfacing dose to dose of pain relief medications. Pain deters healing. So from your description Charlie is STILL in pain and needs to have his pain meds adjusted. Please read this pain so you are knowledgeable about the meds typcially used with a neck disc…Pain control needs to be aggressive and 100% STRICT rest has to be implemented. If not a dog feels good, moves too much and harms his disc with the potential to have nerve damage (legs paralyzed. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htmOften it takes being at the anti-inflamamtory dose of prednisone for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. On the taper the dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose and that is the time to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on Pred needed. If there is no pain on the taper then it goes to completion. Then no meds at all are needed any longer. To have a clear picture on a taper, pain meds are also stopped or back off too. |
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Post by gimpyeskimo on Jul 6, 2013 16:26:03 GMT -7
Hi Paula
I purchased wire crate this afternoon. Not that hard for me to set up. I bought at Job Lot (New England discount store) for $55.
Size Medium. I was struggling getting the thing out of the cart and in the back of my wagon and almost burst into a pile of crying mush and all of a sudden a kind handsome Austrailian man said "Do you need any help?" He loaded it in my car and drove away in a Boxter convertible. I did not check to see if he had a halo and wings.
Charlie is now properly confined in a wire crate with a view of the world.
He is not frantic like in the airline crate.
One thing I am concerned about is that Charlie is now peeing like a female dog -- squatting instead of lifting his leg. That happened tonight.
I wont be able to call for new vet until Monday. I am just through with the old practice. My vet is a clueless nimrod and it is a blessing he is retiring. He had little ability to diagnose.
I just wanted to add that I do not know if he has IVDD because no mylegram or MRI. X rays showed nothing. The only thing I know is that he has progressive monoparesis ( one leg semi paralysis of the right front leg) --which can be caused by degenerative laterilized disk herniation and degenerative foraminal stenosis causing nerve root compression ( nerve root signature) There is a vet flash card online that lists a bunch of conditions that causes monoparesis but most of the other ones are rare.
Thank you very much Paula for your helpful advice.
Mary and Charlie
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Post by gimpyeskimo on Jul 6, 2013 20:35:55 GMT -7
Paula
Charlie is not on any pain meds. Just Pred and Methylcarbamol , which as I understand it is a muscle relaxer not a pain med. So I probably have to ask for pain med too.
BTW I work full time but have have last 3 days off. I come home at lunchtime to take him outside.
Mary
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Post by Pauliana on Jul 6, 2013 20:56:38 GMT -7
Hi Mary, Here is some info on how to find an IVVD experienced Vet. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmI am so glad you got that help from a kind gentleman when trying to get that crate into your car.. I bet he did have a halo and wings. Definitely advocate for Pain meds for Charlie until you find a good vet you need to point things out to the Vet you now have for Charlie's sake. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htmHealing prayers for Charlie1 |
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Post by jochs311 on Jul 6, 2013 22:27:43 GMT -7
So sorry to hear about Chalie. Our Doxie Tucker is going through a back disc episode. I highly recommend acupuncture/ laser and B12 injections. It has worked wonders for Tucker along with the strict crate rest. He was paralyzed one day when I got home from work 3 weeks ago. He is still doing the accupuncture with laser and B12 and is now wobbly standing on his own! I would really look into the acupuncture for your Charlie.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jul 7, 2013 8:03:13 GMT -7
Don't be concerned about Charlie squatting to pee- he has just reverted to a puppy stance because it would be easier to balance and probably more comfortable for now |
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Post by gimpyeskimo on Jul 10, 2013 20:54:12 GMT -7
Charlie just had his 1st accupuncture treatment with a new vet. Just a regular vet not a specialist but he has been doing accupuncture on dogs for 12 years. Charlie loved this vet. All waggy tailed and licked his hand. Normally Charlie is reserved with strangers. And he let this guy stick these huge needles in him. Anyway the vet started talking about the Che or the Chi (maybe that's the tea) or some aura energy thing about accupuncture and I blinked and said Um I kinda like to hear about scientific studies of outcomes and what the teaching vet hospitals think of this procedure.( and Thinking to myself OMG I HIRED A HIPPY NUTCAKE VET !) Anyway he also felt his legs before starting accupuncture and said no atrophy of muscles. I told him Charlies meds and he wants me to stop Charlies methocarbanol (muscle relaxant) and to reduce the Prednisone from 7.5 mg to 5 mg once a day. He said to give him the Tramarol at night only.
Charlie is scheduled for another accupuncture treatment next week. Cost is $75 a session. 30 minute session.
Charlie is still holding paw up like flamingo. The new vet did not know what nerve root signature was. My old vet didn't either. The new accupuncture vet said he would call the specialist (neurologist ) that Charlie saw 6/24 and ask him what the neurologist thought was the problem. --as I have never received a diagnosis from the orthopedist or the neurologists. I suspect nerve root signature. Which --according to the neuro article on this website can sometimes resolve with crate rest.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 11, 2013 8:06:43 GMT -7
Acupuncture can be helpful in controlling pain (evidenced by holding paw up and not wanting to bear weight) and might even allow a smaller dose of pain meds and still control pain. If you see it is not controlling pain the way it should be, then you do need to continue to give pain meds (Tramadol and methocarbamol). Tramadol is likely to not fully control pain unless given at a minimum of every 8 hours. Charlie should not be considered a science experiment to see if acupuncture can fully control pain by basically stopping tramadol to an ineffective dose of 1x a day. Tramadol only has a half life of 1.7 hours. Methocarbamol is the pain med to deal with muscle pain so often associated with a disc episode. So your sharp observations are needed to make sure Charlie is not in discomfort.
The reason to reduce prednisone to below the anti-inflammatorty dose is to test the waters to see if all the swelling in now gone. Pain = Swelling = equals need to stay on the anti-inflammatory dose a bit longer before trying another taper. Now that you are doing 100% STRICT rest that will allow the disc to form good scar tissue and hopefully reduce the irritation to the spinal cord.
Hopefully your vet(s) will go to their reference sources in textbooks or on-line and read up on nerve root signature pain. That is a very good vet who is willing to confer with the ortho or neuro to get a better understanding of Charlie's problems. Let us know what the specific diagnosis was.
How is Charlie is today in regard to pain issue of not wanting to bear weight on his front paw?
What is the name of the stomach protector while on Pred?
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Post by gimpyeskimo on Jul 13, 2013 7:39:17 GMT -7
Charlie has what I call panting panic weirdness at night. I called the vet and he said that is sometimes is a side effect of prednisone gives them psychotic episodes. He said dropping ▼down to 5mg instead of 7.5 mg might stop that.
I stopped the methycarbanol on Thursday. He is still hobling on three legs only worse .He does put front leg down and bears weight on it sometimes. But when I feel it it feels like a wet noodle. He sleeps alot. He does not want to walk around when I carry him outside to potty.
I am a nervous wreck about my sick dog. Maybe many on this forum are too. Haven't been able to eat much or sleep.
I feel so guilty that I did not see the May limping as neurological. Vet thought Lyme disease. Vet had me see orthopedist instead of neurologist and it took until 6/24 to get in to see specialist. To top it off I may lose my job. Last week I asked a supervisor if she would give me directions and name of accupuncture vet practice where she takes her dogs. She said she could not -that was too personal a question and not work related. She reported me to the boss who called me in office with 2 other witness and I got written reprimand for asking a personal question of a co worker.Lovely work enviroment.
I feel quilty about not spending 8K for the surgery. I have the money but that's a big chunk of my savings.
I called the regular vet and said I wanted a RX treatment plan. He said it was ok on the 5 mg pred and OK to stop the methycarbanol to see if accupuncture was working. I just gave Charlie a Tramadol. Is it OK to give methycarbanol and Tramado at the same time??
What sort of bedding should I have in his wire crate? Right now I have small carpets in there.
So thankful for all your advice. My vet does not treat or practice neurology.
The new vet (accupuncture guy) is more pro activ and sympathetic but also does not know neurology.
I am on a stay vacation this week. . I live alone so dog care is all up to me. Next accupuncture is tomorrow.
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Post by gimpyeskimo on Jul 20, 2013 10:58:33 GMT -7
OK . I could not take it anymore not knowing what was wrong with Charlie for sure --? nerve root signature, cervical disk -- that was causing the right leg --flamingo leg.
I called VCA hospital near me ( a national chain of vet hospitals) and I scheduled an appointment with a canine neurologist. I only had to wait one day. Neurologist scheduled MRI. MRI was done and there is NO CERVICAL DISC DAMAGE, no indication of nerve roots conpressed. No compressed discs. The cost of the MRI was $2700. which included chest x ray and bloodwork and anesthesia. She said she did not see any nerve sheath tumors. She said he is definitely in pain in his right leg and also his neck. She put him on Gabepentin 3 times a day. If that is not helpful she reccd a full orthopedic exam. (Which he already had at the 1st vet hospital I took him to on 6/24 --and orthopedists said he needed MRI, neurology consult and surgery but did not say word one about what she thought was wrong. Only said 2 K plus for MRI and 5 or 6 K for surgery and "I have other patients waiting" . Since the bill had a neurologist name on it I thought it was a neurology problem. I actually liked the VCA hsoptial staff and neurologist. There really spend the time to explain everything. But the only thing they did not do an MRI of his gimpy leg. Only neck and top of right leg. If it is a ruptured tendon I will probably have to pay for another MRI, of the leg and thousands more for tendon surgery in the wrist - carpus area. Anyway I want to say good bye to you all because My dog does not have a disc problem. All I can say it can be very difficult and expensive navigating the private vet hospitals and getting a diagnosis. I had a positive impression of VCA Vet Hospital . I dont know if they are more expensive or about the same as other Connecticutt Vet Hospitals. Thank you for all your help.
Oh the last accupuncture was a disaster. Stuck the needle in my dogs wrist and he yelped like crazy. Probably because it is a ruptured tendon.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 20, 2013 15:38:40 GMT -7
Mary, thank you for giving us an update at least you have ruled out IVDD. We all wish you and Charlie the best in zeroing in on the right treatment and a vet who is good at communicating.
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Please know that you are not alone anymore- we are all here for you and willhelp you however we can. Keeping ou in thought and prayer 
