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Post by welovebailey on Jun 27, 2013 23:31:33 GMT -7
Thanks so much for all of your encouraging words.... I really am hoping for the best once the tranq wears off.
I wanted to ask, if I can only afford acupuncture or laser therapy- not both- which would be more beneficial?
Also, can I start massage and pt exercises 1-4 with her yet? She is in day 4 of being in the crate.
Thank you! :-)
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 28, 2013 7:41:42 GMT -7
I would definatelty discuss Bailey's case with the therapist as to whether laser or acupunture would be more helpful.
If Bailey's pain is fully controlled, then you could do just the information highlighted in PINK and the red numbered light massage and range of motion items.
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Post by welovebailey on Jun 28, 2013 9:06:45 GMT -7
Thanks so much for the advice, Paula! Is it any more helpful if I start the acupuncture or laser therapy right away? Its just that its been a really really rough month already with a lot of unexpected expenses, and things are really tight right now...I don't know if we would be able to start the laser therapy or acupuncture for a few weeks yet...  Would that make it so it really wouldn't help much at all (meaning, will it only help a good bit if we were to start right away??) Also, I do have one concern...Bailey has always been almost like a "cat" in that she is always cleaning herself. And now that she soils her self with potty sometimes, I try to clean her as best as I can, but I think a little of the smell is still there (and being a Beagle, she has one heck of a nose!!!) so....she is always trying to twist around in her crate and lick herself. I try to stop her as much as I can, but with chasing after a very busy toddler, there is only so much I can do. Will this hurt her at all or prevent her disc from healing properly because of the twisting motion of her body to lick herself? I'm just concerned about that and not sure what to do to stop it.... And the bladder control issue is becoming exhausting...before I made the terrible mistake of giving her the acepromazine tranquilizer, she could hold her bladder and would only let out urine on a puppy pad every 3-4 hours. But since the tranq, she has been urinating constantly-- I have tried and tried to express her bladder, but with no success. So I'm trying to use diapers on her and a pad underneath her, but it still leaks through the diaper and onto the pad, and then she obsessively licks herself. And I have to clean her up and start over...This is becoming so hard for me (constantly moving her out of her crate and supporting her weight to clean her-she is nearly 40 pounds ) Any ideas are greatly appreciated. I'm just wondering how in the world I'm going to keep up this level of care for 8 weeks. Thank you for your help! |
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 28, 2013 9:44:19 GMT -7
Accupuncture or laser are of benefit no matter when you start - sooner is better, but it will still help if you have to wait a bit  Have you tried the unscented baby wipes to clean her off if she gets urine on her skin? - I know what you mean about that Beagle nose! It can take a while for the Acepromazine to clear her system, so hopefully her bladder function will get better soon. Are the peepads doing the job of wicking away the urine - are they big enough? I ened up getting some old flannelette sheets and folded them up in the bottom of Stevie's crate - at 8 layers thick they did a good job of pulling moisture away (like an old fashioned diaper) she tore up pee pads after a while. Don't worry too much about her twisting - she won't do it if it hurts and I don't know that there is anything that you can do to stop her. You are keeping her confined and that is still the best way to let that injured area heal. You are doing a great job- we will do anything we can to help. Keep us posted! Keeping you in thought and prayer |
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Post by welovebailey on Jun 28, 2013 9:58:43 GMT -7
Thank you Stevieluv!!! Yes, I have been using unscented baby wipes to clean up Bailey as best as I can...I even bought some dry spray in shampoo, but it smells like blueberries, and that attracts her to lick herself too. oh well... I just hope she isn't re-tearing her disk scar tissue by twisting around to lick. Just a quick question about paralysis-- if she is able to stand briefly on her own, supporting her own weight, could that mean she isn't completely paralyzed? she doesn't really move her legs yet, so I wondered if standing just means she has residual muscle left in her legs, or if she really is not completely paralyzed?? And she wags her tail just a bit (1-2 wags) when really happy to see me. (I just know when I had a spinal block for a surgery once, my lower half was considered "paralyzed" temporarily and I couldn't have stood if I wanted to!! My legs were like heavy cement for hours after the surgery!) so I just wondered about that.. Thanks for any suggestions on the pottying, and for your thoughts on if twisting around to lick herself could hurt / reinjure / prevent healing. Thank you! |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 28, 2013 11:51:29 GMT -7
Being able to wag the tail tells us her neuro status… what condition the spinal cord is in. Why tail wags are good news is there is a very good chance the spinal cord with time can regenerate nerves cells to bring back even more nerve functions. On this page you will see where Bailey is re: neuro functions and which function would likely return next. No one can tell you a timetable just the order nerves usually come back in: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm Standing once you have put them in position is often a reflex….now if you have seen her move up in to a standing position that is brain directed sent down the spinal cord to the legs. I agree with Stevieluv, when the budget permits, then look in to acupuncture or laser light therapy. The important care is the 100% STRICT rest 24/7 for 8 weeks to let the disc heal. Always licking could be a sign of a UTI. Urinary tract infections can happen very fast and a beagle's nose will be a tuned to a different smell. Can you bring in a sample of urine for a urinalysis to prove whether there is infection present or not…so dribbling due to a UTI can be ruled out or antibiotics started if there is an infection. Diapers are not the best solution as they keep moisture and waist near the dog's body and that can be intolerable to them. The best thing is to be able to take her outside her crate to pee on a pee pad or if it is determined she has lost some bladder control to express her. While on Pred you will need to give her a potty break every 3-4 hours if she can control her bladder. If she can't control her bladder then you would need to manually express the bladder every 2-3 hours. Sorry, but I can't remember if you got a hands on top of your hands type of expressing lesson from the vet? |
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Post by welovebailey on Jun 28, 2013 13:44:45 GMT -7
Thank you for the helpful info Paula~ My husband is very worried about this whole situation long term...we did not know things that we should not let Bailey be doing all of this time...all of her 6 year life, she has been a lightning bolt of energy-- tearing off and running like crazy, jumping on and off furniture and even beds, tearing up and down stairs at breakneck speeds, you name it-- just about every bad thing she could have done she's done on a regular basis. So...he is very concerned-- even if we get her through this episode, we realize that the extent of her disease / disc damage is about as bad as it can get. She has completely lost the function of her legs, and now most likely her bladder as well. So if she, through some miracle, makes a recovery through the 8 weeks of crate rest, is it highly likely that she will reinjure herself at any given time? Even if we somehow are able to retrain her to not jump on furniture, put ramps on our stairs, etc... with one little one and a baby on the way, we cannot possibly watch her every second, and she is verrrryyyyy very stubborn!! He is just very worried that she will just reinjure herself and end up with another disc episode very shortly after this... Any thoughts on this? I am guessing that because the extent of her disc damage is as bad as it can possibly get, that in itself makes it much more likely for a recurrence as well..is that correct? If I had known better, and crated her right away when she was in pain, before the paralysis set in, her injury would not be so bad, and the chance for a recurrent episode would probably not be as great. This whole experience has been one of the worst experiences of my entire life..and he and I are at odds about the outcome-- he feels that if she cannot recover and remains paralyzed that we should put her down (with a 1 yr old and baby on the way he feels it would be too much to manage). I on the other hand, cannot bear the thought of putting her down just because she would be unable to walk, but I do know he is concerned because of the management issues (particularly because she would be unable to control her bladder and bowel--and for the life of me, I cannot get successful at expressing her. ) I have no idea how we come to an agreement on this, but I told him I would ask for your thoughts about the possibility of a reoccurrence due to the extent of her disc disease/ damage, lifelong bad habits, and quite stubborn disposition. I'm just still hoping for a miracle and hoping these 8 weeks make a big difference for her. |
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Post by jochs311 on Jun 28, 2013 20:35:33 GMT -7
Hi Sarah, We are going through a similar issue with our Tucker (Dachshund). Expressing to potty is exhausting. Tucker is starting to pee on his own a bit and starting to wag his tails bit. If you look at Jens Tucker you could read more. Anyway we have started accupuncture with laser and have seen him improving better than with just our primary vet. Who as of Wednesday told us to consider a cart because he will not walk again. I am determined to prove him wrong!! Look into the accupuncture/ laser treatment and see how much it costs in your area. Ours was $100 for the first consult/ treatment (accupuncture and laser) visit and $46 for follow ups. Tucker goes 2 times a week now. Today he is standing on his own for a bit longer and letting us know he has to go. We still have a little leaking but its like as soon as he knows he tells us. He has started to pee on his own a bit ( still expressing to make sure its all out) and I've been seeing some tail wags!! He also got B12 injections yesterday with her. My accupuncture Dr and I have seen improvement. Our. First visit she said she couldn't promise us anything it's a 50/50 shot. Yesterday was our second and she said he seems like we are looking at the good side of 50% I highly recommend it!! |
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Post by welovebailey on Jun 28, 2013 22:55:24 GMT -7
Thanks so much for your help, Jen! I am going to call around to try to set up an acupuncture appt tomorrow. Hoping for the best.... HUGE POTTY PROBLEM!!! As I have mentioned, I have been trying to express Bailey, but with almost no success...she just tenses up like crazy and won't relax enough no matter what I do to calm her in order to be able to express her bladder...and its not just me; the vet and vet tech couldn't express her either. I have also been trying to clean her up as best as possible with dry shampoo and unscented baby wipes, but the urine is still managing to scald her skin...it nearly broke my heart tonight to find a bunch of angry looking sores on her belly and near her sphincter. I put a&d ointment on that area... I am also concerned that because she has currently lost control of her bladder, and I can't express her, she might not be emptying enough but rather overflowing..although she does pee a LOT, it doesn't just seem like a "dribble" or "overflow" / leak, so I'm not sure if she's voiding on her own all the way or not. I just don't want her to end up with a big UTI or to stretch out her bladder so much that she wont be able to use her bladder ever again. So,,,,I am thinking maybe I should bring her to the vet to have a catheter put in. This way I don't have to worry about sores, cleaning her up all the time, failure at expressing her, and her stretching her bladder too much. Is this a good idea?? I just don't know if the catheter would make it so that she wouldn't remember how to use her bladder even if / when her neural function returns... PLease let me know your thoughts / if this would be a good idea. Thank you! I'm feeling soooo frustrated, and sooo very bad for poor Bailey!!!! |
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 29, 2013 18:04:01 GMT -7
Hi Sarah,
Make sure that the A&D ointment does not contain zinc, which is toxic to dogs. Check with your Vet for a cream or ointment that does not contain Zinc.. He needs to be checked for a UTI, as Paula mentioned. The vet will need a urine sample to test. Something to discuss when taking him in to ask about the Catheter.
I looked for information about catheters for you and one of our advisors here in Dodgerslist had the info we were looking for: According to Dr. Andrew Isaacs, DVM, ACVIM (Neurology) of Dogwood Veterinary Referral Center
"When it is advisable for the dog to go home with a catheter? With adequate medication and good client education most cases do not need to go home with an indwelling urinary catheter and the owners can manually express the urinary bladder. Occasionally, a dog is extremely difficult to express and the risk is outweighed by the benefit. It is extremely important to keep the urinary bladder decompressed to prevent permanent damage and dysfunction. Therefore, if the urinary bladder can not be manually expressed an indwelling urinary catheter may be an option your veterinarian chooses. Another option if unable to manually express the urinary bladder is intermittent catheterizations. This takes an owner that is willing, able, and has been educated properly on the technique used to perform the catheterizations.
What are the pros and cons? With an indwelling urinary catheter there is a greater risk of developing a urinary tract infection the longer the catheter remains in place. Also, if not monitored and cared for properly the catheter can become occluded/kinked and cause even greater problems.
How often does the dog’s bladder need to be manually expressed and why is it important to do so? Ideally, the urinary bladder should be expressed every 6 hours (within reason). An owner does not need to wake up in the middle of the night to express the bladder. Expression before bed and when waking up is sufficient. If left distended,the urinary bladder will not be able to function properly even after the spinal cord injury heals.
How will steroids affect the frequency of expressing? Steroids cause increased water loss through the kidneys. Therefore, a dog on steroids will have an increased volume of urine compared to a dog not on steroids and thus require more frequent expression. "
Hope this helps. From experience on Dodgerslist the frequency of expressing while a dog is on Prednisone is every 2 to 3 hours.
Has the sedative worn off and has any bladder control at all returned? It is still a good sign that he can wag his tail. I think Acupuncture and or Laser can be of great benefit to him..
'I know you have your hands full with a little one, Bailiey and his IVDD and a baby on the way and send healing thoughts your way..
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Post by welovebailey on Jun 30, 2013 23:05:02 GMT -7
SOS PLEASE HELP!! Another big challenge in the road...Bailey is definitely starting to get a lot of sensation back (which is definitely good in a way-- she is able to move her back legs a little bit, and is very much regaining bladder control, yay!!! I am getting super successful now at expressing her, and she even bends her legs to squat and continue the stream and she is able to very much move her tail-- all are wonderful signs of nerve healing.) HOWEVER...because she is regaining a lot of feeling and sensation, her pain is becoming unmanageable..which absolutely kills me to watch! She started whining off and on yesterday, and yelping every once in a while when we would pick her up to bring her to potty. Well, today...she was much much worse. She would often sit up and pant (versus laying down) and anytime at all we would move her to potty, she would scream out in pain-- it was absolutely awful!!! Tonight, I had to leave for a few hours, and when I got back home, she was panting profusely and just shaking uncontrollably. Any movement at all caused her to yelp out in pain. I gave her 2 tramadol right away (two 50 mg pills, so 100mg total) and even an hour after that her pain was no better. She would also only sit up rather than lay down (it seems that sitting was more comfortable for her). I knew she was completely exhausted (she hadn't slept or ate all day), so I was finally able to calm her by crawling inside her crate and holding the upper half of her body. After a long time of that, I felt her slowly begin to relax and stop shaking so much. I put a big fluffy blanket in front of her and eased the upper half of her body onto it. She seemed to tolerate this position much better than laying flat down with her head on the floor of her crate. (her head was up higher on the blanket being supported above her body) SO....do you have any ideas of a pain med I could try that would help make her pain manageable? Right now the vet has prescribed her 75 mg of tramadol every 12 hours. THis was working, but now that she is regaining sensation, it is not treating her pain well enough AT ALL! I cant give her Rimadyl because that would be hard on her tummy with the Prednisone. So I'm not sure what to ask the vet for... please let me know if you have any ideas... would a muscle relaxer in combo with the Tramadol help relieve her pain? I don't know what to do... but it is awful to see her suffer so much! Also, I have been instructed to give her 15mg of Prednisone 2x per day for 7 days, and then taper down to 10mg of Prednisone 2x per day for 7 days after that. She has been on 15 mg for 7 days as of today, so tomorrow I am supposed to taper her down to 10mg. BUt..with how severe her pain level is, do you think it is too soon to be tapering down the Prednisone already? Thank you so much in advance for all of your time and help! I really hope we can get her through this awful time...it makes me cry so hard to see her in such pain.. PS-- just so you know her size / weight-- she weighs just under 40lbs. |
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 1, 2013 10:16:19 GMT -7
Sarah, when there are signs of pain, that is the time to get with the vet asap. The vet needs to know what they have prescribed is not right and there needs to be adjustments. Nerve functions returning are excellent news but it is a separate thing from pain that is being caused by the swelling in the spinal cord. The pain meds that Bailey is on are not at the max and tapering of pred needs to wait….there is still swelling that needs to be address by pred. Tramadol 2 times a day is not sufficient to control pain likely unless given every 8 hours or more often. So you vet has plenty of room to move to help get pain under control. Most vets also prescribe methocarbamol to help control pain from muscle spasms… Ask for methocarbamol. When pain stlll can be controlled, gabapentin can be added to Tramadol and Methocarbamol. You'll will need to strongly advocate to the vet about more aggressive pain managment as soon as possible today.. The page you need to read over for information on the meds typcially used with a disc problem is here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmThis is upsetting to hear that Bailey is having this pain. Has she done anything excessive in movments that might explain the pain now when it had been under control previously? Please let us know what the vet says. |
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StevieLuv
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Post by StevieLuv on Jul 1, 2013 20:42:27 GMT -7
How is Bailey doing?? Have you been able to increase the frequency of her Tramadol? The Vet needs to treat her pain more aggressively - be firm and don't take no for an answer. The increase in prednisone to twice a day will help with the swelling that is causing her so much pain. Some dogs have to be on it longer that others, the tapering can wait, don't worry about that. You have been doing an incredible job under very difficult circumstances! Keep us posted - keeping your Bailey in thought and prayer. |
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Post by Pauliana on Jul 1, 2013 21:21:37 GMT -7
Sarah,
Hope that Bailey has been prescribed Tramadol 3 times a day and has Methocarbamol and Gabapentin added in also so she can be pain free dose to dose.. She also needs to stay on the dose of Prednisone that she was on prior to the taper. She isn't ready to Taper yet.
It's great some of her sensations are back but not the pain.. and I hope that's under control now so she can continue to recover..
Sending prayers...
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Post by welovebailey on Jul 2, 2013 20:43:47 GMT -7
Thank you so very much again for all of your incredibly helpful thoughts and ideas!! I have wonderful news regarding Bailey's pain level-- I called the vet on Monday morning first thing at 7:30 am (it had been an awful night), and I was able to get in right away. My regular vet is away on vacation, but the one I saw on Monday was great and very helpful / proactive. He said to increase the tramadol to 3x a day instead of 2x, and that I could give her Tramadol 100mg each time vs 75mg. Also, I had done some research before going into the vet on Monday morning, and asked if he could prescribe Methocarbamol as well. He did, and the combination of those two things has made a world of difference for Bailey!!!! SHe is doing sooo much better- no signs of pain or distress, and able to eat and drink again finally. She was soooooo thirsty today- drank a lot of water almost like she was a bit dehydrated from lack of drinking / eating when in so much pain. However, I am a bit scared, because I was able to express her this morning (her urine was very concentrated), and I have tried several times throughout today, but the only time she actually went potty was at about 10:30 this morning. Now it is 12 hours later, and she still hasn't gone again yet. I really hope I can get her to go when I try one more time before going to bed. She is on an antibiotic ( cephalexin ) for her bladder infection that was diagnosed last Saturday, so I don't think it could be because of her bladder infection. SHe was going potty for me just great until the horribly severe pain hit. Do you think maybe she didn't / couldn't go today because she was a bit dehydrated? She did drink quite a bit of water today though...so it worries me a little that I couldn't get her to go except for this morning. Lastly, every morning since starting the antibiotic, I wake up to find her in a diahrea mess. It is absolutely awful to clean up...could this be from the antibiotic she is on? She was having no poop accidents before going on the antibiotic...I really hope this stops soon! I am having to be gone quite a bit during the day this week, so is it all right if I limit her water somewhat? I know with being on the prednisone, she is extremely thirsty-- I just don't know if this means she needs the water, or just that she wants it because of the side effects of prednisone. Let me know if I can safely limit her water at all. Thank you again for your time and help-- I don't know what in the world I would do without you!!! YOu are all such lifesavers! |
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Post by Pauliana on Jul 2, 2013 21:01:08 GMT -7
Hi Sarah,
So glad Bailey has the right pain control, I am so relieved! The diarrhea could be from the antibiotic or from stomach problems from the Prednisone if she has no stomach protection such as Pepcid AC.. Please contact her new Vet and let him know about the diarrhea. Was it dark or tarry looking?
As far as expressing while you are talking with the vet about the diarrhea, please ask him for the medication to make expressing her easier.
Please don't limit her water intake while on the Prednisone..She needs the water.
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Post by welovebailey on Jul 5, 2013 8:04:43 GMT -7
Hi, I know I posted this a little while back, but not sure what you think regarding these concerns...my husband is just quite concerned about Bailey's situation long term, and I am hoping to give him some of your opinions / answers regarding her future. Thanks so much for your help!
"My husband is very worried about this whole situation long term...we did not know things that we should not let Bailey be doing all of this time...all of her 6 year life, she has been a lightning bolt of energy-- tearing off and running like crazy, jumping on and off furniture and even beds, tearing up and down stairs at breakneck speeds, you name it-- just about every bad thing she could have done she's done on a regular basis.
So...he is very concerned-- even if we get her through this episode, we realize that the extent of her disease / disc damage is about as bad as it can get. She has completely lost the function of her legs, and now most likely her bladder as well. So if she, through some miracle, makes a recovery through the 8 weeks of crate rest, is it highly likely that she will reinjure herself at any given time?
Even if we somehow are able to retrain her to not jump on furniture, put ramps on our stairs, etc... with one little one and a baby on the way, we cannot possibly watch her every second, and she is verrrryyyyy very stubborn!! He is just very worried that she will just reinjure herself and end up with another disc episode very shortly after this...
Any thoughts on this? I am guessing that because the extent of her disc damage is as bad as it can possibly get, that in itself makes it much more likely for a recurrence as well..is that correct?
If I had known better, and crated her right away when she was in pain, before the paralysis set in, her injury would not be so bad, and the chance for a recurrent episode would probably not be as great.
This whole experience has been one of the worst experiences of my entire life..and he and I are at odds about the outcome-- he feels that if she cannot recover and remains paralyzed that we should put her down (with a 1 yr old and baby on the way he feels it would be too much to manage). I on the other hand, cannot bear the thought of putting her down just because she would be unable to walk, but I do know he is concerned because of the management issues (particularly because she would be unable to control her bladder and bowel--and she is very difficult to express.
I have no idea how we come to an agreement on this, but I told him I would ask for your thoughts about the possibility of a reoccurrence due to the extent of her disc disease/ damage, lifelong bad habits, and quite stubborn disposition.
I'm just still hoping for a miracle and hoping these 8 weeks make a big difference for her."
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 5, 2013 10:25:09 GMT -7
Is it highly likely she will reinjure herself?…. no. But there is always the possiblity that another prematurely aged disc could have a problem, might be mild with pain only, it might cause some neuro function loss. Some dogs have only one disc episode while other dogs have multiple. No one will be able to give you a firm answer…that is the nasty part of this disease… it is unpredictable. Nope, there is no way you can watch Bailey every second and you should not have to do that. The same with a child…oh,boy can they get themselves into some trouble and you can't watch them every second either! So Bailey and your child need the same kind of help. You make a "safe room" for your child where they can play and not get into any trouble while you take care of household needs. With Bailey, you block off stairs and furniture so he can't get himself into any trouble and you are free to do things around the house that need to get done. Should you kill Bailey because he can't walk? My answer would be no. Bailey can exist quite happily by scooting about your home and with a wheelchair when outdoors if neuro funtions do not come back with time. It is people who have a tough time dealing with what they think is a defective body. Will life with Bailey be different…oh yes, it will.. it will be a "new" normal. For example on cold days you take Bailey to the warm bathroom where you express his bladder instead of standing outdoors in the freezing rain. No more waiting for Bailey to find just the exact right place to sniff and then pee…you express in 60 seconds or less, wash your hands and express again in 6-8 hours. There is no way to know at this point in time if nerves will be again connecting in a matter of a few weeks or months to bring back all of Bailey bladder control and leg functions. Kill him today and you won't ever know that in the next month he might have had his nerves self repair to bring back leg and bladder functions. Should you kill Bailey is also a moral question you have to come to terms with. Life is all about the journey of learning and being able to apply your new found inner strength and knowledge to the next hurdle. We only learn when we are in the difficult stages of life. Is life important or just a life we keep around when things go easy? You guys willl have to dig deep into your souls and answer the questions for yourself. I can say, what I thought was going to be something I did not know how I would ever deal with is now just a new normal routine in caring for my Clark who has been paralyzed with no bladder control since 2007. I have learned so many things from him, and about myself and have had opportunities I never imaged due to Clark, i am sooooo very glad I did not skip this class… I showed up and stuck with Clark. Before you make a decision you can never reverse, read two things: 1. Through Frankie's Eyes. This author has the ability to explain far better than I ever could what Bailey can do for you! www.amazon.com/Through-Frankies-Eyes-Journey-Authentic/dp/0980005299  2. Crystal Ward Kent sums up beautifully what having a pet means. "When you bring a pet into your life, you begin a journey — a journey that will bring you more love and devotion than you have ever known, yet also test your strength and courage. If you allow, the journey will teach you many things, about life, about yourself, and most of all, about love. You will come away changed forever, for one soul cannot touch another without leaving its mark. You will learn the true measure of love — the steadfast, undying kind that says, “It doesn’t matter where we are or what we do, or how life treats us as long as we are together.” Respect this always. It is the most precious gift any living soul can give another. You will not find it often among the human race. If you pay attention and learn well, when the journey is done, you will not be just a better person, but the person your pet always knew you to be — the one they were proud to call beloved friend. |
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Post by welovebailey on Jul 7, 2013 16:49:33 GMT -7
Thank you for all of your helpful info / insight Paula-- this is such important information and perspective to be able to share with my husband...it is difficult because we do feel very differently about her future if she were not to regain use of her legs. I want her to remain a part of the family regardless, so I will keep working on him... I do have a question regarding her progress; I am trying to remain positive and not become discouraged. As of tomorrow, it will be 2 full weeks in crate rest for Bailey. As you know, last Sunday night her pain was completely out of control. I got her Tramadol increased, and the vet also prescribed her Methacarbamol on Monday morning to start taking 2x a day. This made a HUGE difference for her. However, I noticed that after I started the Methacarbamol muscle relaxant, it was impossible for her to support herself in a standing position any longer. (NOTE: she cannot get herself into a standing position, but before starting the muscle relaxant, I would place her into a standing position when we would go out to potty, and she could hold herself up fine. After the muscle relaxant, she can not hold herself up at all. ) Is this normal with the muscle relaxant? I even tried decreasing the dose on Friday to see if that would make a difference, but she still cannot support herself in a standing position-- her legs seem very very weak. Here is some positive things she can do: 1. when I do toe pinches, she does respond (although she did respond more dramatically in pulling her legs back before I started the muscle relaxant). She does still move her legs slightly though when her toes are pinched. 2. She seems to be regaining some bladder control. She is very often holding her potty between potty breaks. Even at night the last few nights she is still dry in the morning (yay!!)3. When we do go out to potty, she is starting to squat to go pee, and sometimes even starts a stream on her own, or continues the stream on her own (if I squeeze to express her, and then stop squeezing, sometimes she can keep the stream going). I express her still to make sure she gets it all out. 4. She can move her tail-- not a lot of wags yet, but a couple here and there. We notice the tail wags the most with expression. She will lift up her tail when she squats to go potty, and then often wags it a couple of times right after peeing. 5. Definitely regaining sensation in her hind area (as evidenced by her severe pain last Sunday), so that's a good and a bad thing. So.....I am wondering..given these factors, in your opinion is she making any progress? As I mentioned, she can no longer support herself in a standing position, so that makes me quite worried. Based on the things that she can do, is there some hope still for a full recovery? Thank you again for your help and time reading through this information! I am hoping and praying every day for a miracle for our little Sweetie. |
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Post by jochs311 on Jul 7, 2013 17:34:05 GMT -7
Sounds exactly the way our Tucker was a week ago. We are on 3 weeks strict crate rest as of yesterday. Bailey IS making progress! Keep it up girl! Tucker is now getting himself into a standing position on his own although its wobbly. He is also wagging his tail a lot more. Keep doing what you are doing Sarah! Stick to the strict crate rest! Have you considered accupuncture? Tucker is doing accupuncture/ laser twice a week with B12 injections. We never had Tucker on muscule relaxers. He is on Tramadol 50mg 2x a day and a herbal pain medication called Body Sore 2 pills 2x a day with the Tramadol. He is also on the last stage of tapering off his Prednisone a quarter pill every other day. I would talk to your vet about the muscle relaxer. If her pain is managed on the Tramadol then maybe she doesn't need it. Keep up the good work!! She IS making progress!!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 8, 2013 8:14:08 GMT -7
Sarah, you are reporting some very good indicators that nerves ARE healing and coming back with staying dry, attempting to squat to pee!!! Keep up the good work to do a quick express check after she pees on her own until you are certain she voids fully each time. It does appear that bladder control is beginning to return. Avoid the toe pinches, they are reserved for after all 8 weeks are completed as a PT exercise.. Most general vets do not properly identify what they observe with toe pinches in regard to deep pain sensation so you are not likely to either. Anyway if she can squat she naturally does have deep pain sensation. Being in pain is not the same thing as the body having deep pain sensation neuro function in tact. They are two separate things. Not being able to stand is likely weak muscles. What you are looking for is being able to move herself up into a standing position. Please do read about nerve repair so you can identify what to watch for as the nerves heal: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm |
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Post by welovebailey on Jul 8, 2013 12:11:54 GMT -7
Thank you for your thoughts and encouraging words Paula and Jen!!! Jen, I am SOOO excited and happy for you and Tucker-- he is making amazing progress!!! You must be ecstatic!! That is such wonderful news!!! Keep up the awesome work! I will avoid the toe pinches-- I was just desperately trying to see any sign of her regaining feeling / movement in her back legs Paula, you said "Being in pain is not the same thing as the body having deep pain sensation neuro function in tact. They are two separate things." Does this mean that just because Bailey was having severe pain last weekend, this does not necessarily mean she has regained feeling / neuro function in her hind end area? I just wasn't sure what you meant. Paula, I did have a question-- you mentioned that Bailey not being able to stand / support her weight on her back legs is due to muscle weakness. So does that mean you think it is not due to being on the muscle relaxant (methocarbamol)? I am just wondering if I should keep her on the Methocarbamol or if it is hindering her progress...Is there anything I can due to help try to re-strengthen her muscles? I am trying to look into having acupuncture sessions for her...it is just a really difficult time financially for us right now, and I am on medical leave right now due to high risk pregnancy, so that has made things even more tight. We have already put a lot of money into the vet bills / medications so far, and the acupuncture around here seems to be more costly. The best price I can find is $80 per session, plus $100 for the initial exam. I don't know how we will ever be able to swing that right now... so I am continuing to look for a better price. If I can't find a better option (that is more affordable), it is awful if I just continue with the strict crate rest? (and massage / excercises listed on this website?) I would give anything to be able to try the acupuncture, but at that price we cannot afford it. Thank you again for all of your help and for your encouraging words!! We are now entering week 3 of strict crate rest! Hoping and praying for new improvements all the time. |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 8, 2013 14:10:36 GMT -7
Methocarbamol is to relieve the pain of muscle spasms so often associated with a disc episode. So she needs it to give her comfort from pain. A muscle relaxer does not hinder nerves from self healing.
The ability for the brain to acknowledge sensations of pain deep in the interior of the spinal cord…the place last to be damaged is a neurological function just as being able to wag the tail with happiness is a neuro function……..neuro functions are things the body can do and controlled by the brain. So a neurological function is not the same as suffering from a pain. Because you should only trust the word of a specialist on deep pain sensation, we owners are better served by looking for a tail that wags with happiness at seeing you or thinking about getting a treat. A joyous tail wag is easy to identify. Tail movements at potty time are not from joy but due to a reflex action.
As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order.
1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord
2. Wobbly walking, legs cross
3. Nails scuffing floor
4. Paws knuckle
5. Legs do not work (paralysis, dog is down)
6. Bladder control is lost
7. Tail wagging with joy is lost
8. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function
Hold off on acupuncture, you can start it at any time. Don't put your family's budget in jeopardy that may make it hard to care for an emergency for any family member.
The single most important part of the care you give Bailey IS the 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks. Getting the disc to heal and being able to do that pain free is your goal. Nerve healing can continue well after 8 weeks…think in terms of months as nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal. On crate rest you might see some nerve healing but that is not the focus…the focus is letting the disc heal.
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Post by welovebailey on Jul 8, 2013 17:31:21 GMT -7
Thank you for the info!
Just wondering....after looking at the information about how / the order in which nerves heal, it got me thinking: is it possible for her to gain her bladder / bowel control back, but not the use of her legs? Like if the nerves healed enough to give her bladder control, but not enough to allow for standing or walking?
I just wondered if that is possible, or you have ever heard of that happening before?
Thanks!
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Post by jochs311 on Jul 8, 2013 18:52:48 GMT -7
Yes it is possible. Tucker has gained his bladder back and still can't walk. We is gaining his leg strength back though and can put himself in wobbly standing position slowly. Things will start to come back. I am so happy that Tucker's recovery is keeping your mind at ease for Bailey. She seems to be following the same path as Tucker. Stay strong! You are doing a great job with her recovery! You have to much on your plate to worry. Just keep it up!! |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jul 9, 2013 9:01:19 GMT -7
Yes indeed, they can control bladder and bowel and still not walk. I still take Stevie out with her sling to potty most of the time because she is so wobbly, but she controls the when and where |
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Post by welovebailey on Jul 10, 2013 19:01:04 GMT -7
Just a quick question about the bladder control...I am wondering why one day to the next (or even from a few hours to the next few hours) sometimes Bailey does awesome holding her bladder between potty breaks (and I get super excited) and then next thing I know (the next day or what not) she leaks in between.. also, a lot of the times I take her out now, she urinates on her own (yayyyy!!!!), but then the next day, she might not and I have to try to express her. Just wondering why this might be?? Thanks! |
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Post by Pauliana on Jul 10, 2013 20:50:52 GMT -7
Hi Sarah,
Bailey's nerves are still in the process of healing and that is likely why. She is still in the early stages of recovery since she has been in crate rest for 2 weeks and 1 day and it is already working because she is making some progress even though it is variable from day to day.. Time is the greatest healer and she will get there!
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Post by welovebailey on Jul 11, 2013 15:41:39 GMT -7
Thanks Pauliana! I am just wondering if there's anything I can do to help her further regain bladder control (and more consistently...)~ I am currently putting a diaper on her between potty breaks. If I don't, and she leaks onto the potty pad, it greatly distresses her and she licks at it obsessively (and the twist she puts herself into to lick can't be good for her back). So I end up having to change potty pads and clean her up constantly. Also, when she leaks urine onto the potty pad her fur soaks it up too, and makes it VERY difficult to clean. WHen she leaks a little into the diaper, the diaper wicks it away from her skin and fur which is very helpful. My only concern with using the diapers-- do you think this could be making it more "comfortable" for her to leak potty in between breaks? It really distresses her (and me when she goes potty on the pee pad (*and it is very difficult to constantly clean up) but it doesn't seem to bother her when she leaks into the diaper. Just wondering if you think she would try harder to hold her potty between if she was not wearing a diaper. Or if it's completely out of her control... Also, she is very often starting a potty stream on her own at potty break, but I think she has a hard time getting it all out quite a bit of the time. So I try to express her as best as I can, but boy is she super duper hard to express!!!! SOmetimes I do the very best I can (sometimes without much success) and I wonder if she is leaking in between potty breaks because she is not getting it all out during the potty break. The last challenge is that during the day while my husband is at work, her potty breaks have to be in the house on a pee pad. (due to my high risk pregnancy I can not lift her down our steps to outside). I think she empties herself much better when she can go potty outside (which makes sense! --it just makes it very challenging for during the day. Any thoughts or ideas are greatly appreciated!! Thanks so much! |
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Post by jochs311 on Jul 11, 2013 16:53:55 GMT -7
Hi Sarah,
Bailee's nerves are still in the healing prosses. Tucker was like that too we are on week 4 now and he holds his bladder all night and all day while we are at work. She will get better. I personally wouldn't recommend the diapers. It might be to stressful on her back while putting them on and off. I think you will only have to deal with the leaking a little longer before she will be able to gain full control back. You are doing a great job!!
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Would that make it so it really wouldn't help much at all (meaning, will it only help a good bit if we were to start right away??)
