Nicole's Sadie 2017 Conservative -NECK+BACK—Beagle/Corgi

Welcome to Dodgerslist Nicole! First thing to know is that it IS in the cards for your Sadie to get back to enjoying life whether immediately walking during the short 8 weeks of conservative treatment it will take a disc to heal or waiting on more nerve repair - IVDD is not a death sentence. Find out why that is true: www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htm

When it is considered an emergency, the switch to Prednisone can be made sooner if Sadie's stomach is double protected with Pepcid AC as well as Sucralfate. It is her stomach that can be damaged if two stomach protectors aren't on board with the switch from Rimadyl to Prednisone..It's great the specialist is doing a washout but that leaves nothing working on the swelling around her spinal cord.  
Any time an anti inflammatory is being given, her stomach needs to be protected.  For added protection always give Prednisone with a meal once she starts taking it.  

Sadie can heal from this episode as many thousands of Dodgerslist dogs have.. Nerves take a long time to heal.   You are right, the fact that she is no longer yelping is a sign of improvement.. Wobbly walking will take time to heal as that is nerve damage.  She has bladder control, and can walk even though wobbly..that makes her a good candidate for conservative therapy.  Here is some info to read about when to consider surgery and when to consider conservative. dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm


Tramadol can cause panting.. put a fan nearby but not blowing directly on Sadie.. Panting can also be from pain or anxiety.  Look at the list  of pain symptoms below.. If you see any other signs that she is exhibiting along with the panting, it could be pain.. Otherwise, she could be anxious because she doesn't understand what is happening to her.. Give her lots of comfort and reassurance.   Keep telling her what a good girl she is.  
☐ Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move, tight tense tummy, restless, can't find a comfortable position. Ears pinned back, arched back. Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight, head held high or nose to the ground. Not their normal perky selves. Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way dose to dose of correctly Rx/d pain meds.
 
🔴 "There is medicine and there is healing. Healing requires rest and comfort, and all patients should be kept as comfortable as possible. Studies have shown a correlation between less pain and faster recovery from illness, surgery, or injury." Barak Benaryeh, DVM, DABVP. Identifying Pain in Geriatric Patients. Veterinary Team Brief. NOV/Dec 2015. 🔴

☐ Let us know you are on the same page about crate rest. The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the crate rest part. With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. That 6 weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form.  This  article has the Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm

STRICT means:

*no laps  *no couches  *no baths   
*no sleeping with you   *no chiro therapy
*no dragging or meandering at potty times.

Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog's back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot.

www.dodgerslist.com/literature/slingwalk.jpg An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on!

☐ Why Chiropractic is not recommended for pain for an IVDD dog www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm

Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical or health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive against not eating, vomit, diarrhea, bleeding ulcers by giving doxie-weight dogs 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory. ☐ Currently can your dog wobbly walk? Move the legs at all? Or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk?

The unknown is simply too scary a place to stay in. Are your ready to get up to speed on all things IVDD and fight the IVDD enemy? Excellent page to start with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Are you ready? Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm

So glad you are here with us.. All of us have dogs with IVDD, so we know what you are going through.. We can help you learn how to care for Sadie during this episode and the many happy years ahead with her..  Yes there is life after IVDD, My Tyler is living proof..  He was diagnosed over 4 years ago and we have a great life together.   Healing thoughts and prayers!

Thank you all for the great information.

So today it seems like we have a setback...I didn't realize she was out of her her gabapentin until this morning and it took me longer than I would've liked to get it home to her, so she didn't get her morning dose until 1:30pm. When I got home my husband looked distressed and Sadie was yelping (it seemed more out of anxiety than pain) but I can tell that she is a lot more pain today. He had given her Tramadol, so I quickly gave her the Gabapentin.

He told me that he let her out to pee and she only peed then laid down, where she usually will pee and try to walk. When she laid Down he said he wanted to let her lay outside for a little bit and ran into house to get some water and she started yelping loudly, she hasn't done this since last Saturday when she started the Gabapentin. He said she would stop yelping when he came back.

Right after I gave her the medicine I walked out of site to the kitchen and she started yelping again. She was trembling and panting heavy, and wouldn't eat the pumpkin or green beans I just got her (she's now eating them one at a time as my husband hands feeds her.

I think she is starting to calm down now from the gabapentin, maybe her strong reaction earlier was from missing the dose of that this morning?

I will definitely use the sling method when taking her out to pee, and in am 100% committed to the crate rest. I work from home so I can keep an eye on her all day.

I just called her vet to get a Rx for the methacarbonal, hoping they call back soon!

I really really hope we haven't prevented her healing conservatively by the long time it took to get diagnosed. I will say that drink that time she was not walking a lot and I carried her in and out to per every time. But, she was walking during that time more often than strict crate rest.

Thank you all so much for information and thank you for any feedback. I'm praying praying she pulls out of this setback soon! She was doing so much better yesterday and we started crate rest and I really thought we were doing good. I HATE that I delayed her gabapentin dose this morning I am so mad at myself for causing her discomfort!

Update for the update... ok, she imhas calmed WAY down and is sleeping now, it was most definitely the delay of gabapentin! I feel terrible if I'm glad she's better now. And super happy vet called back and have the $5 ✚methacarbonal prescription approved and ready for pick up just like that! Thank you all SO much!

And thank you for the chart! I will start using asap!

[Moderator's note: please do not modify
35 lbs
crate rest started 7/7
Rimadyl STOPPED 7/7 for a 4-day washout
Prednisone to be started 7/11: ? mgs ?x/day for how many days BEFORE test-for-pain taper
Gabapentin 100mgs 3x/day
Tramadol 50 mgs 3x/day
Fentanyl Patch as of 7/7 effective for 3 days
✚ Methocarbamol 125 mgs 2x/day]


Using the box fan worked, funny enough my husband did this the other night and it worked and then you mentioned it. It immediately stops the panting, I don't know how it works but it does! You guys are amazing!

Can you tell me the recommended dose of Pepcid AC for Sadie and do I need to use this and the sucraflate together?

I have the prescription for the predinosone so I can technically start it myself at anytime. My husband mistakenly gave her Rimadyl this morning though so I don't know if I still need to wait for the wash out?

The med and pain chart is a must in this house!

Hi Paula,

Thank you for answering my many questions. We got the methacarbonal 500mg prescribed at 1/4 2x a day. I gave her one she seems much more comfortable not panting or crying and sleeping.

I'm a little concerned though, she has not pooped since we went to the specialist on Friday. Do you think it's the fentanyl patch causing constipation? She was pooping normal prior to that. Is there anything I can give her to help her go? She is peeing normal.

I will definitely ask vet about Pepcid and start that when I put her on the Prednisone. Thank you again for everything!

Thank you Julie! The pumpkin worked and she went today.

We have had a rough weekend, the increased pain even with the pain patch I believe is due to the Rimadyl wash-out. I can't wait to start her on the Prednisone soon! Today was a rough pain day but I think we finally have the meds right and she has been comfortable no yelping, shivering, trembling, etc since we did.

We are currently doing:
2 100mg Gabapentin every 8 hours (we do right before the 8 hour mark more like 7:30-7:45
1 50mg Tramadol every '8' hours
1/4 500mg ▲Methacarbonal every 8 hours

[35 lbs
crate rest started 7/7
Rimadyl accidental dose on 7/8, vet wanted 4-day washout 
Prednisone to be started 7/11: ? mgs ?x/day for how many days BEFORE test-for-pain taper
Gabapentin 200mgs 3x/day
Tramadol 50 mgs 3x/day
Fentanyl Patch as of 7/7 effective for 3 days
Methocarbamol 125 mgs ▲3x/day]

Starting Prednisone Tues unless otherwise told from Vet to wait due to husband giving her a dose of Rimadyl on Sat.

We are continuing the strict crate rest. I have had to keep an eye on my husband and I keep telling him when she goes potty to not let her walk a lot and to use the scarf, he was worried because she wasn't pooping and didn't want to interfere. She has pooped and my husband is being phenomenal at doing everything to help her. He even slept in living room last night because she had a bad pain day and was finally calm and he didn't want to move her to the bedroom and she always sleeps on his side of the bed on her dog bed usually at night.

We have a crate setup in the bedroom and she is in the pack and play on a crib mattress and a memory foam mattress in living room.

Staying prayed up and hopeful. It's SO hard to feel like your doing the right thing sometimes, especially while trying to get pain meds right. I l have cried my eyes out this weekend. I have doubted myself, I have felt guilt for long delay in her diagnosis. We have a 19 month old daughter and when it gets rough she always makes me smile. We also have another dog, Burton, he's a10 year old yorkie/chihuahua mix we think (he's a rescue). It's so hard seeing him so worried over Sadie.

I know God will only give you what you can handle. I lost
My Dad in Dec. and we had to make the decision to take him off life support, I just keep thinking Lord please I can't do that again. I can't lose her right now. I watched my Dad suffer and get better the. Get worse right to the end. I can't lose Sadie and my Dad just moths apart.

Sorry I probably sound like a ranting basket case. I'm so thankful for you all. I just want you to know you all have given me hope and without your message board this would feel like a very bleak journey. God bless you for the work you do!!!

Hello! First, thank you so much for the support and kind words! They are so appreciated.

Talked to Vet and she said because the accidentally Rimadyl dose was not a consecutive one there are no contraindications to start the ✚Pred today. I asked about ✚Pepcid AC and she said absolutely move forward with that and that it will add stomach protection.

Giving her first dose of Pred now it is prescribed as follows...

Prednisone 5mg quantity 30
Give 1 1/2 tablets 2x a day for 5 days
Give 1 1/2 tablets 1x a day for 5 days
Give 1 1/2 tablets every other day until gone.

[35 lbs
crate rest started 7/7
Rimadyl accidental dose on 7/8, vet wanted 4-day washout
Prednisone as of 7/11: 7.5mgs 2x/day for 5 days BEFORE test-for-pain taper
Gabapentin 200mgs 3x/day
Tramadol 50 mgs 3x/day
Methocarbamol 125 mgs ▲3x/day
Pepcid AC ? mgs ?x/day ]

Also, happy to update she has shown no signs of pin now that we have a good schedule and utilizing the chart. She rests comfortable and is back to having regular bowel movements and urination.

Feeling hopeful she will recover from this!

Thanks Paula! I have a call into the vet for the sucraflate Rx. I did get the Pepcid AC.

I also removed the fentanyl patch today. She isn't showing signs of pains still but is very wobbly on her back legs when going to bathroom.

She is going to bathroom as normal. Once I get the sucraflate this evening, assuming they will prescribe, I guess after that is the waiting game. She seems in good spirits so far. Staying positive and hopeful!

Just got a call from the vet that they prescribed the ✚sucraflate, so does this sound like a good schedule....

Sucraflate 1st thing a.m. (7:30-8am)
Pepcid- 45 min. later
Prednisone: 30 min. After that with food

Then repeat 2-3 hours later for evening Pred dose?

Thank you SO much!!!

I didn't mean 2-3 hours later I meant more like 8-10

[35 lbs
crate rest started 7/7
Rimadyl accidental dose on 7/8, vet wanted 4-day washout
Prednisone as of 7/11: 7.5mgs 2x/day for 5 days BEFORE test-for-pain taper
Gabapentin 200mgs 3x/day
Tramadol 50 mgs 3x/day
Methocarbamol 125 mgs 3x/day
✚Sucralfate ?mgs  ?x/day
Pepcid AC ? mgs ?x/day ]

Hi Nicole,
I am glad Sadie is continuing to improve! With so many medicines, I would definitely say using a medicine chart like Paula indicated really, really helps, and I hope that is helping you guys too. I made a spreadsheet, and printed it out, but ours looked something like this (I hope this is ok to post):



Then we would just write any notes in the space left to the right (eating habits, bathroom habits, demeanor etc). I wish I had been doing it thoroughly for the whole time-we started the more detailed system a couple weeks in, after just using chicken scratch and jotted notes for each day.  I actually kept everything and put it with his healthcare records just in case we ever need to reflect back on it.

My husband sometimes gave the medicine, and sometimes I would, so it was a really helpful way to keep track to not miss a dose, or miss the time of a dose, Especially when Buckeye's medicines changed over time. A trend we noticed, for example, was how his eating habits and bathroom habits changed so much with with the addition and reduction of prednisone. Well, the helpful thing was we had already learned about those effects from this forum:

Temporary side effects of steroids:

Panting- fan near the recovery suite but not pointed at dog can help.
Drinking more and eating more
Bladder filling up every 2-4 hours and the need to provide frequent potty breaks or expressing sessions


...so although we observed and documented the changes, it wasn't alarming in the bigger scope. Knowledge is definitely powerful in this journey.

We also both set alarms on our phones at the medicine times and set them to repeat daily, and that really helped us too. It is so important to have the timing of the medicines correct.

The other thing I would very much encourage you to do is just keep calling your vet if Sadie has any changes, or if you have any questions, and report back to them (as you have been doing  ). I definitely know that part can hard, and it's hard not to feel a bit crazed. But, a good vet wants what is best for your pet and doesn't mind a lot of calls or answering your questions; in my mind this just helps them treat your dog more effectively as they have more information presented about their patient. I wasn't always the happiest with our vet, but they were receptive to my persistence, and the way I presented information I had learned to them.

Nicole, we actually depend on our members helping our tiny group get the word out across the USA. We'd be honored if you would take on your neck of the woods!

Education about disc disease is our number one mission! We wish we did not have to hear of another dog that was put to sleep because of disc disease nor one denied the correct principles of crate rest to help them heal. Here are two ways to help...
-- "SHARE" our FB posts www.facebook.com/Dodgerslist
-- Hand carry our literature to your vets. When in conversation at the grocery store line or wherever you may meet breeds most prone to IVDD (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas) give out our little cards. Ask Linda to send you a free packet: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htm

Nicole, we've got our fingers crossed that pain will not be surfacing on the pred taper at all. Keep us posted!

Yes, when they are feeling good, it is more of a challenge to keep movement of the back limited. Both your and your husband staying the course with 100% STRICT rest only a very few footsteps at potty time, can prevent a relapse to the disc and having to start back at step one.

Sadie is progressing nicely with nerve healing which you can observe. The hard part is not being able to see that the disc is still healing and the need for limited movement of walking around at potty time.