Melissa's Rocky 6/14 conservative

Welcome to Dodgerslist Melissa! Please let Rocky know with your utmost confidence that things are going to be ok…because they will. With this disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The unknown is simply a scary place. Get ready to fight this disease now and in the future by knowing all things IVDD. There is no better place to start than on our main web page with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm

Please note that Steroid blasting is an old treatment and there are better treatments available.. Normally what is done in conservative treatment is an anti inflammatory EITHER a Steroid OR a NSAID (never both) Tramadol for pain (usually given 3 times a day)  Gabapentin for hard to control pain or nerve pain  (3 times a day) and Methocarbamol for muscle spasms ( 3 times a day) and Pepcid AC every 12 hours ( if there is no medical reason not to give it) to prevent stomach acid problems caused by the Steroids or NSAIDS and very importantly CRATE rest for 8 weeks only out to potty with very limited steps to avoid as much movement as possible to allow the discs to heal..

Rocky can heal with conservative treatment as many Dodgerslist dogs have. Here are some of our success stories.. The ones with C after the names were treated conservatively..  www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htm

The reason they want to do a myelogram ( or Ct Scan or MRI) only prior to surgery is because Rocky would have to be anesthetized for the procedure and to avoid having to anesthetize him twice.. and for the surgeon to see what he is dealing with before surgery.. That is normal procedure..


In order to help you more, could you please answer these questions?

-- What was the date you saw the vet and started the all important 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM)?

-- Is there still currently pain - shivering, shaking, crying when picked up or moved?

-- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC.

-- Can your dog move the legs at all or wag the tail due when you do some happy talk?

-- Can your dog sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? Helpful videos with tips on expressing both urine and poop: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm

-- Eating and drinking OK?

-- Poops OK - normal color and firmness no dark or bright red blood?

The very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm

 Laser light therapy, acupuncture and electroacupuncture which sends a microcurrent of electricity to and from acupuncture points (which are really big nerve bundles), can be very beneficial at helping to re-establish the nerve connections in the body. Any one of these therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration. Find a holistic vet here: ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] NOTE: Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs.


 Add this comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD to your arsenal of
educational resources. Friends, family and those who will be caring for
your dog should also watch this DVD; plus don't forget to order one DVD
for your vet www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htm

Paulina- Thank you for all the info- I have just sat down, after sitting with him, and caring for him all day, so now I can talk. To answer your questions:
1- AT 3:11pm on Friday 6/14- I came home from work to see him dragging his legs. By 3:16pm, I had him in the car, and off to the Vet ASAP.  X-Rays showed T9-13, and L4-5 are rubbing, and likely blown/damaged discs.  We stared the tramadol (2 x/day), prednisone  2 x/day, and Methocarbamol 2x/day. All of that started the same day 6/14, at 5:18pm. now he will get his 4th dose in a few minutes.. crate rest (in an ex-pen) stared ASAP from the moment we walked into the door. and only outside to potty and then back in.. i sit in the ex pen with him.. so he is not alone. i do not hold him, just pet his precious little head. He is been sleeping in the expen, since friday.. i moved a mattress on the floor for me and my other Dachshund and Whippet to sleep beside him on the floor on the other side of his expen, i won't let him sleep alone. even though he cannot sleep with us.

2- is there still current pain? YES. he is a VERY STOIC boy, and will refuse to show any pain, very brave little guy at 4.5 yrs old. he was in MAJOR distress and labored breathing until a few hours after I got the medicine in him. so now he is only in labored breathing and major pain when i have to pick him up to take him outside to potty.  his pain level clearly is better with the meds,but still very high. the entire time i carry him and pick him up the labored breathing and complete tension throughout his body is present. its like holding a concrete block, solid and tense. but when he's laying on his own in the ex-pen, he seems to have little discomfort now with the meds. he is trembling and very tense only now when i pick him up.. not when he is at rest. (he trembled 100% of the time BEFORE the medicine started 2 days ago)

3- He has not been given any pepcid or any acid pills of any kind.  he takes tramadol: 50mg (1/2 tab 2x/day)    Methocarbamol: 500mg (1/4 tab 2 x/day), and the third and final drug: prednisone: 20mg (1/2 tab 2x/day)- and NO STOMACH protector.. now i am nervous!! All the drugs started about 2 hours after i came home... it was ASAP treatment. I have a follow up visit tomorrow morning at 9am. i will tell the doctor i need to discuss stomach protectors such as tagament or pepcid.. anything else i need to tell him about the meds?

4-Can Rocky move legs or wag tail?  YES - he is slowly walking a few steps (to potty ONLY)- his movement is getting much better.. he can now hold his weight for several second before he has to sit down.. unlike he was when i found him friday. he could not hold his weight at all, and his movement was much worse, but still moving friday. he has made a lot of improvement since the medicine, but still very wobbly, weak, and partial paralysis. his tail has wagged very very good always, even before the medicine. his tail seems to be completely unaffected.

5- he is able to pee -has what appears to be complete bladder control, unaffected , and as before previous to this horrible horrible event friday.  He last pooped friday at 3:12, (i minute after i let him out when i got home and noticed the problem...)- then this morning (sunday at 8:30am)- i had to help him poop.. because he cannot walk and sniff. he is the kind of dog that likes to poop privately. so with me standing over him, he will not go, that is normal.  i have shown dogs for many years, and i used a trick for him to poop- a wooden match stick inserted in the rectum about 1/2 inch inside. He then pooped within a few minutes. it was VERY solid, and he was slightly constipated. (because of the drugs i'm sure..and the stress)- it was a full movement. it was light in color, almost a brownish yellow color, but no blood or disfiguring of any kind. i would say his poop is about 2-3 shades lighter than normal. he is peeing fine.. no change in that part. he seems to have complete bowel/bladder control. THANK GOD


6- Eating and drinking ok? eating like a pig (typical Rocky-he's a typical Dachshund opportunist)- and drinking is less, but still progressive. The doctor said less drinking is ok, but watch him closely.

7- pop color.. see #5.


So no to steroid blasting??? i need to talk to my doctor monday, and see what else i can do for more treatment.. i am looking for an acupuncturist now.. should i try that? and how often for treatments??  i do not want to do steroid blasting because he is very sensitive to drugs, and to many foods. his diet is very limited.. and i think  that injections every HOUR for 48 hours is way too hard for him.. what should i do next?? i do not want to do surgery until a last resort.. its not the money.. its the fact that if it doesn't work, his fait is sealed and there is no way to reverse the surgery.. BUT- if he has massages or acupuncture.. and it doesn't work, then ok.. not permanent,. i just stop it. does that make sense?? 

Hello Melissa, I am familiar with steroid blasting. It is usually done by show breeders when a dog is totally down with no deep pain to bring the swelling down fast. IMO Rocky is not in that serious of a condition.

Rocky is on a high dose of Pred now for a mini. So, he definitely needs to have a stomach protector and I would do it asap. Maureen (stevieluv) is right,his pain must be controlled and your vet has some more options such as giving the Tramadol more frequently. Since he has bowel and bladder control he has a very good chance of a nice recovery. I am also familiar with the match trick. The meds, especially the Tramadol, are what is making him constipated. You can use a teaspoon of plain canned pumpkin to help.

Acupuncture will be very effective as well as laser therapy. Just be sure he is out of pain and you can transport him without jarring.

Will be keeping you and Rocky in our thoughts. Keep us updated and let us know when you talk with your vet. I would do this asap to get that pain under control.

I agree with Linda, Since Rocky still has neuro functions of bladder control he is not in such serious condition to warrant the  GI tract risks of very high levels of steroid blasting. Most all dogs DO have return of leg functions when there is still bladder control with prednisone treatment and we have been watching 1000s of dogs over many years. The important thing is that his pain be well controlled with sufficient combo of pain meds, dose and frequency, so the oral prednisone can do its job of getting inflammation down in the spinal cord approximately 1-2+ weeks.  Do know there are no guarantees with any treatment: surgery, conservative or steroid blasting. Weigh the risks vs. benefits when making decisions.

Regaining nerve function is a thing of patience to let the nerves regenerate and heal enough to bring back nerve function . The 8 weeks of crate rest focuses on disc healing. Nerve repair may or may not happen during the 8 weeks as nerves are slow to heal.

Regarding Steroid Blasting:
Methylprednisolone succinate (MPS) presently remains the drug of choice in people with acute spinal cord injury due to its neuroprotective effects against the physiological cascade associated with the secondary spinal injury events. These beneficial effects occur when MPS is given within 8 hours of injury. Clinical studies in humans suggest that spinal cord damage may be exacerbated if MPS treatment is initiated more than 8 hours after injury." Clinical Neurology in Small Animals - Localization, Diagnosis and Treatment, K.G. Braund (Ed.) Traumatic Disorders (6-Feb-2003) www.ivis.org/advances/Vite/braund28/IVIS.pdf last accessed 10/15/07

If you are going to proceed anyway with steroid blasting the stomach REALLY needs protection from not just Pepcid AC (famotidine) but also from a 2nd called sucralfate. www.marvistavet.com/html/sucralfate.html

Glad to hear Rocky is doing better with his legs!

The best thing to do with new meds is to google them.
Cytotec (Misoprostol) is a very good stomach protector and also a med that induces labor.
www.petplace.com/drug-library/misoprostol-cytotec/page1.aspx

Thank you everyone for the info and the advice. It will be difficult to see my boy locked in a box for 2-3 months, but if its what gives him new life, then its what we will do. I've done more research on this site, then one would ever care to do in a lifetime.. I saw this: www.facebook.com/LilBackBracer or www.lilbackbracer.com - I can see how this could lend to support, but it seems it could ALSO add pressure to areas that are injured/stressed. I've been asking around, no one I know personally has used this, and also- the reviews are mixed (via internet)- thank you.

ah- i see what you are saying. I can agree on many of your points. and that was some of my own concerns, because i cannot imagine 'one size fits most' scenario.. when dealing with different 'types' of dachshunds.. how can one differentiate one dogs location of pain versus a different area in another dog. thanks for the opinion. crate rest, acupuncture, and hopefully in time a better boy. The fact that he's never lost bladder/bowel function is whats keeping me optimistic at this point. Though optimism doesn't seem to be readily available around here lately. I noticed yesterday when he came back from the all day blasting at the vet,, he was notable depressed.. so I tried to keep the house calm. (hard to do with a 5 yr old Dachshund running around and a 4 mo old Whippet puppy chasing him..) so i just sat with him most of the night doing injections and rubbing his head. I hope his spirits are better today, and hopefully the acupuncture will bring him some sense of relief

Linda, thank you for the email. We did it for a 2 day period only. That was what was recommended by the 3 Vets on the case, and a few 25-30+ Dachshund breeders. The steroid blasting was monday and yesterday, and now stopped. Now as of today, 6/19, we go back to the Prednisone, Methacarbamol, and Tramadol dosages he was originally prescribed. So this new 3 drug mix (and the acid/stomach protector tab) will last for 2 weeks, then he is to be evaluated again. I don't know what is typical after 2 weeks of steroids, and I'd gladly like to read any opinions, but I'm sure it's probably the answer of: wait and see in 2 weeks. :/ We did the electric acupuncture yesterday, (will do once a week for a few months at least.. then hopefully once a month indefinitely, if its beneficial for him.) The Acupuncturist (who is also a medical doc for humans, and a Vet now, as well as board certified for Acu work)- also mixed up a natural homeopathic serum based on what the readings (electronic acupuncture) and her additional testing advised Rocky needs. I have to give him 2-3 drops 2 x/daily about 10 minutes before meals. Also the cold laser therapy, she showed me what to order (it will be delivered tomorrow)- that is to be done 2 times a day for about 10 minutes, for at least 2-3 months. and she showed me 'toe touching' exercises to do many times a day for a least 4-6 minutes. It's a challenge to take care of all his needs, but I'll gladly consider additional methods/treatments. I have to do all I can by him .. I'm all he's got..

(Cold laser therapy) You can also pick up the likes at an Office Max or Staples, etc.. she did say the lasers that people use for playing with cats or keychain lasers are not good enough. The price point should be around $25-$35, that ensures a higher level intensity, and more power behind it. It looks like a marker, or fat ink pen. How to use it: She said find the 'affected' area, or area of interest.. with your eyes, visualize a circle around the area a couple inches around.. make sure the dog is at rest, whether laying down, sitting, sleeping etc. not standing and using his muscles.. Then take the laser, and imagine yourself painting or filling in the imaginary circle with the laser. so paint a solid layer, (sort of like the test questions on an exam with the scan trons in school.) as if you were painting the circle with a brush. (she also mentioned clearing your mind and just focus on the light and what you are doing.)- it can be swivels, figure 8's, circles, whatever you want.. and focus on that area for about 4-5 minutes, and finish the rest of the area (not affected ) with less time. for example, she found his weakest point is at his T13-L1 spot. (around the waist)- and she said drawn an invisible circle about 3 inches around the center, and fill that circle in.. then do it again.. that should take 4-5 minutes. then the rest of the spine should take about 4-5 minutes, just circles up and down the spine. for areas that are not affected, but still apart of the affected area( like the low back is Rocky's biggest issue, but the neck/spine is also considered the 'affected area secondary'- all in all - it should take about 10 minutes for the spine, with greatest concentration in the damaged area. I did some research on my own last night while sitting with Rocky in the ex-pen so he would not be alone.. i found this link: dochartchiro.com/laser.htm,, and after talking to the Doc, i chose this light: www.amazon.com/dp/B000W0BZIO/ref=pe_385040_30332190_pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_dp_1

One last thing about the Laser Therapy.. I asked her "WHY" does this work. she said the body sees light, and absorbs it, be it the kitchen sink light, or the sun light. and the red laser (not green laser) offers the most substantial light absorption. She said the body naturally wants light, and when it gets light (the brighter the better)- its happy. and the molecules in the cells start to 'dance' - the more the molecules dance, the more the cells activate, and kick back into gear, rather than just laying around doing nothing, not sending or receiving messages to/from the brain. So the cells jump around, throw a party, and the brain says: hey, whats going on down there? so a message leaves the brain passing the 'road block' (affected area, T13-L1 in rocky)- and goes to the part of the body that is not responding/ or responding poorly, in this case, that part is Rockys back legs... then the message of what is going on is relayed back to the brain, then the brain wants to know more, and see what else is going on down there, so the 'road to communication' get stronger as the brain messages are pushing past the road block. soon, the road block can/will be pushed completely to the side, whereby allowing messages to freely go back in forth to and from the brain. and that result lends towards the functionality restoring/improving in the back legs. I had to ask her to give me the explanation in 'idiot' terms- so i understand it, so thats why the explanation is a bit goofy.. but i understand perfectly now the benefits of the light, and what it can do. Once i found that link i posted a few minutes ago with the multiple studies/findings of the experiments - and talking to her, i was hooked..