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Post by leon919 on Jun 3, 2013 16:03:11 GMT -7
Belle is a Cinnamon Miniature Dachshund. She'll be 6 at the end of July
She has had back problems for a couple of years now. A couple of weeks ago (5/19) she couldn't climb the steps so we took her into the vet. They gave her a steroid shot and we started the regimen of 5ccs of Cimitidine twice a day, 1/2 of a 5mg Prednizone pill twice a day for three days,▼ 1/2 pill once a day for three days and 1/2 pill every other day for 7.
Yesterday we put her in her crate to go grocery shopping and when we returned, she couldn't use her back legs at all, tail wasn't wagging and she was shivering. We rushed her to the vet and they said that most likely she has IVDD. She suggested that we run downtown to schedule the test and if she was diagnosed with IVDD...surgery. Unfortunately, since we've only been living on one income for a while, we didn't have the money and our care credit was maxed out (partner just started working and hadn't been paid yet). We've heard this surgery can be between $2K-$8K. So that's too far out of reach.
Our vet gave her another steroid shot and then gave her a shot for the pain (Tramadol). Then she upped her prescription to 3/4 of a 5mg ▲ prednizone pill twice a day for three days, 1/2 pill once a day for 3 days and 1/2 a pill once ever other days twice a day while continuing the 5cc Cimitidine twice a day.
Our friends let us know about Dodgerslist and we've been reading up. We immediately crated her.
Our vet called today to check up on her. We let her know that she hadn't pee'd nor pooped. They said if she hasn't peed by the time we get home to bring her in so they can show us how to express her bladder. When we got home she had pee'd. Her tail is wagging and she has some movement in one back leg.
We called the vet expressing concern that she hadn't pooped. She said to give it another day or so, sometimes it takes a couple of days. If nothing has happened, we need to bring her in.
She's drinking a lot of course (because of the Prednizone) and she just started eating today
We've been worried sick since this started (I'm emotionally drained). We don't think she's in a lot of pain (no shivering, no whining ... well, except for the "please let me out of the crate" whine and only grunts when we pick her up to take her outside). It has helped reading all the success stories here.
She's currently asleep in her crate between our desks.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 3, 2013 17:32:28 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgers List. I'm sorry that your Belle is having an IVDD episode, thank goodness for your friends alerting you to the knowledge that there is more than surgery to deal with this disease. Tail wagging is a great sign! Keeping on top of pain control, protecting her stomach from the steriods and strict crate rest- only out to potty is paramount to treating conservatively. There is alot of information on this site and we are all in this together. Read, read, read and ask questions - we are all here for you! Keeping you in thought and prayer.  |
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Post by technocowboy on Jun 3, 2013 19:27:37 GMT -7
...and she pooped! It's diarrhea, but that's to be expected. It's light, no dark, no blood. My mother would be horrified that I'm discussing my happiness about dog poop.  She keeps trying to stand up. One leg is stronger than the other, but they're both starting to get strength back. And there's a LOT of tail-wagging. We also got Skype set up to auto-answer when we call, so we can check in periodically during the day. That's more for our peace of mind than hers, though, I'm guessing. |
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Deborah & Angel
Helpful Member
No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Jun 3, 2013 19:35:42 GMT -7
Be sure to give Pepcid to protect the stomach.. |
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 3, 2013 20:10:12 GMT -7
You have an emergency with the diarrhea. Do not delay, call ER if you have to and get sucralfate on board asap. PLUS also get Pepcid AC (famotidine) on board from the local grocery store. There is a timing to these two stomach protectors you will need to read up on. In fact read up on each of your dog's meds. I keep Mar Vista Vet website bookmarked for myself: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlCimetidine is an older version and not as effective as Pepcid AC. You will need to take the bull by the horn and become as educated as possible on the treatment, the meds….so I am glad to hear you ARE reading. The meat of Dodgerlist is on the main website: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks is the single most important part of conservative treatment. Your vet is giving very short 3 day courses of pred before the taper. This means at the start of the taper to watch for pain and tell the vet asap so another course can be started. Have a plan "B" should pain arise on the weekend when the vet is not open, can you up the dose to the orig one yourself and keep the vet in the loop on Monday? During the time on the anti-inflammatory the pain meds do need to be adjusted so that there is no pain surfacing dose to dose of pain relief medications. Pain deters healing. Ask for at home pain meds if you are seeing any hint of pain (shivering, not her perky self, moves gingerly) Discussion of typically prescribed pain meds including the cost savings $4 generic programs pharmacies, Walmart and grocery stories have: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmOften it takes being at the anti-inflamamtory dose level of prednisone (5mg 2x/day) for 1-2 weeks or even for some dogs more like a month before all the swelling is gone. On the taper the dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose and that is the time to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain. Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on Pred needed. If there is no pain on the taper then it goes to completion. Then no meds at all are needed any longer. To have a clear picture on a taper, pain meds are also stopped or back off too. Let us know you have Pepcid AC and sucralfate on board to protector her GI tract from the adverse side effect of diareah before it progresses to bleeding ulcers or perforated stomach lining. |
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Post by leon919 on Jun 3, 2013 20:20:20 GMT -7
Are you *trying* to panic us?
This is the first time she's pooped in almost two days. We were told by the vet that it might be loose the first time. This is hard enough as it is without the fear factor you just delivered. We'll talk to the vet tomorrow about the meds you just "suggested"
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 3, 2013 20:25:31 GMT -7
Do what you can tonight. Do you have plain calcium carbonate such as TUMS? You can give her a tablet tonight.
Cortisteroids (Prednisone, Prednisolone, Dexamethasone, etc.) are involved with stimulating gastric acid secretion causing GI upset to the more threatening bleeding ulcers or holes in the stomach or intestine.
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Post by leon919 on Jun 3, 2013 20:39:13 GMT -7
And I'm not going to give her anything without confirmation from our vet. Even the site says to consult the vet before giving your pet anything. Again, I would like to point out that you are a being an alarmist.
A quick google search indicated that Cimetidine protects the stomach as pepcid does. The vet prescribed the Cimetidine so the stomach would be protected. Also, the website that you pointed us to even says "The following medications do not work well in patients taking concurrent sucralfate: Cimetidine (tagamet HB®)"
Again. We will talk to the vet tomorrow about what you have said.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 4, 2013 6:27:23 GMT -7
How is your sweet Belle this morning?
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Post by aak & Pookie on Jun 4, 2013 6:35:44 GMT -7
Welcome and you aren't alone. My Pookie has been on crate rest since last wednesday and doing better. He can walk now but still wobbly. You will find a lot of advice here. I"m drained too and tired. But they are our babies and we love them so much.
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Post by leon919 on Jun 4, 2013 8:36:05 GMT -7
Thanks for the support. No change from last night...although I think she's waging her tail more. That might be wishful thinking.
She doesn't seen to be in any pain. No shivering, no whining and her stomach has loosened up. Poor girl wanted to scratch and put her head down then looked at her leg and it seemed that she was wondering why her leg wasn't doing it's job.
We're stressed, tired and worried about her but were getting through it. 8 weeks will be hard but doable.
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Deborah & Angel
Helpful Member
No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Jun 4, 2013 15:00:19 GMT -7
We are all here for you, you'll be amazed at how fast the time goes by when you have the support group here. I thought I was gonna lose my mind too. It was a very stressful time for me, but the more I read, and educated my self, and the support from members and staff here, got me through a very trying time. My FurBaby has recovered and is doing well, but I am so afraid of the "next time" and "what ifs". I don't know if we ever get over that, I am just worried to death. But, we are here, however we can help, if only to listen to your fears.. Praying for you and your FurBaby.. |
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 5, 2013 13:47:06 GMT -7
Hi Leon! In case you are going in for an expressing lesson, here is a link to a video to help you get familiar before your lesson... www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm This is another link that has lots of info on IVDD. www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmI would be careful with Cimetidine too. It has a drug interaction with Tramadol which is a commonly used pain medication for dogs with IVDD. Pepcid AC doesn't have drug interactions with Sucralfate, Tramadol or with Gabapentin another drug used for nerve pain with IVDD. I read also that Cimetidine does not work well with Sucralfate and that is another reason. If your Belle should have a stomach irritation develop due to Prednisone, even with stomach protection, it happens sometimes, because steroids are so strong. Sucralfate would coat her stomach and heal the irritation but couldn't be used because of the Cimetidine. That makes Pepcid AC the better choice for stomach protection.. www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/tagamet-with-tramadol-669-327-2221-0.htmlWe get our information and advice from a wonderful Neuro Vet and he checks every bit of our information on our website that has been around for 11 years. www.dodgerslist.com/We are the premier website for dogs with IVDD. Thousands of dogs have benefited from our advice and help.. Check out our success stories.. My dog is at the top of the list. www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htmMy Tyler is running around here like his disc episode never happened. Thankfully our Neuro Vet at Purdue University Veterinary Teaching Hospital knew all about Dodgerslist, they even gave our Founder a tour of their facility years ago and they were impressed with Dodgerslist early on. Tyler has benefited greatly from Purdue as well as Dodgerslist. They helped my very emotional state after Tyler went into surgery and supported me with help and advice throughout his crate rest recovery.. So much so that I wanted to become a moderator to help others walking this road. Conservative therapy and 8 weeks of crate rest along with medications to put a stop to the inflammation and medications to mask the pain works too. Lots of dogs recover just that way. Surgery costs are so very high, many can't afford it. Paula was trying to help Belle, she is not an alarmist! She is a very informed person who has spent many years helping dogs with IVDD and the people who love them..Along with our founder Linda Stowe, Paula Milner is the backbone of what we do and puts in long days and many evenings here on this forum volunteering her time because she cares.. I for one want to be just like her.. |
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Post by Linda Stowe on Jun 5, 2013 14:12:18 GMT -7
How is Belle today? Any more diarrhea?
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Post by technocowboy on Jun 6, 2013 19:22:08 GMT -7
We took her to the ER vet to have them take a look on Tuesday night because she had some diarrhea and vomiting on Tuesday during the day, and while they were examining her, she had some more diarrhea, but this time it was bloody and mucousy. They said that, most likely, it was the elevated dosage of prednisone that was screwing up her GI tract, so they took her off that completely. They pumped some fluids into her, changed out her meds completely (Leon knows what she's on, but this time it includes tramadol), and sent us home. We put her on a chicken-and-rice diet for two days, and tomorrow she starts a couple of days of C&R+her regular food, then she's back on her regular food.
She pooped on her own tonight for the first time since Tuesday night, and it was solid.
She's getting strength back in her legs. She's starting to stand up in her crate, but she's still wobbly. She *really* hates being in there, but the vet told us that after four weeks, she'll be ready to come out. We were a little taken aback at that, and told him that we've been seeing 8 weeks, and he said that the 8 weeks won't hurt her and to leave her in there for the whole time.
We're hopeful.
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Post by Sherry Layman on Jun 6, 2013 19:39:27 GMT -7
Stopping prednisone abruptly is dangerous. When on steroids the body stops producing it's own version of them and they are vital to many bodily functions. The signal to the body to start producing these hormones again is the tapering of the prednisone, the body is given a signal over several days that the supply is low and it needs to produce again.
Also, the prednisone is what will bring immediate relief of that swelling around the spinal cord.
Indeed, she is experiencing the gastric complications that can occur with prednisone but a more prudent course of action would be to use both the sucralfate and the pepcid. The diet changes will be helpful as well and giving the prednisone with food will provide added protection.
Please know that no one here wants you to be afraid, we just want you to be informed about everything IVDD related. Many of us have been doing this for several years as Pauliana mentioned and have experienced much ourselves as well as learned from the experiences of others. Pauliana also pointed out that we have vets who are very experienced in IVDD treatment that have given us tons of advice. Not every general vet sees IVDD often enough to be fully knowledgeable about the best treatments or all the potential complications and best methods for avoiding them. We are so blessed to have these great vets that have educated us and we hope you will learn much from our site.
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Post by technocowboy on Jun 6, 2013 19:46:08 GMT -7
*sigh* Yes, we're aware. We would not have done it without a veterinarian's guidance.
We've heard such good things about this community, and it seems like everyone is trying to tell us that what we're doing is completely wrong and that our vets are doing the exact wrong things by Belle. When we're told things by multiple vets, it's a little distressing when it seems we're being told that we're doing everything wrong.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,610
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 7, 2013 9:56:39 GMT -7
Jeremy, I'm sad and so sorry to hear that Belle needlessly had to experience more severe effects of less than effective GI tract protection with bloody diarrhea. I can also feel your frustration. We all want to believe our vets know everything. Those of us who have been at Dodgerslist from a number of years have found out many times even our own vets don't know everything about IVDD and we witness 100s of other vets not having all the details about our dog's disease. This is the reason Dodgerslist is here. So other owners can take advantange of what we have learned and what the IVDD knowledgeable vets who we consult with share, that information is available for free just for the time it takes you to read. As time permits read all you can, it is only then you will be able to advocate for Belle's needs. Here is the link to IVDD eduacation about the meds, crate rest, everything IVDD: www.dodgerslist.comCan you tell us her new meds now.... the dose in mg, the frequency you give them. Please review the other class of anti-inflammatory to make sure they have not put her on NSAIDs in the changing out of meds....that would be double jeopardy to the GI tract: ETOGESIC (etodolac), RIMADYL (carprofen), METACAM (meloxicam), DERAMAXX (deracoxib), PREVICOX (firocoxib), ZUBRIN (tepoxalin), NOVOX (carprofen), Ketoprofen www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmIs she now on Pepcid AC and possibly sucralfate to help the areas of the GI tract which has been damaged to heal? Your vet is right the 8 weeks will not hurt Belle, in fact it will assure her disc has time to completely heal. Is her pain fully under control with the change out of meds? Hang in there, Belle has a very good chance at healing with 100% STRICT rest for 8 weeks and getting the meds just right for here. Nice to hear she can now try to move up into a standing position! I know how worried you must be... reading about IVDD can give you the confidence to know things will be alright. More than that, you will be in the position to recognize red flags before things get seriously wrong.... you will know how to fight this enemy and win! Please do keep us all posted.....we worry about each dog on this Forum as they are part of our family too! |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 7, 2013 10:48:16 GMT -7
I have tried to send you a message but can't make it work:) I wanted to tell you that I understand how incredibly frustrating it is to get conflicting messages about Belle's care, and sometimes a posting may sound hyper critical without meaning to. I can't always tell the tone of a posting by the written word either, so please believe that everyone truly wants to help you and sweet Belle through this IVDD journey - no matter how poorly our message may come across. Our best defense as pet parents is to get truly educated about this disease and don't take &%$# from anyone. Get loud, question statements and decisions that you don't understand or agree with. As a retired Animal Health Tech I know that all Vets are not well versed in IVDD treatment - some are willing to learn from you and some sadly, can't get by their own egos. We are all in this together - don't give up! Please let me know it there is anything that I can do to help.
Keeping you in thought and prayer (((hugs)))
ps- You are NOT doing everything wrong! You are learning and questioning and giving Belle love and great care!
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ts123
New Member
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Post by ts123 on Jun 7, 2013 11:15:55 GMT -7
Yes, keep your head up and be the best advocate you can for your dear girl. The first time we went through IVDD with our dog, I felt like we were doing everything wrong. I was at a complete loss. I think this community showed me to not be afraid to ask questions and most importantly, be a voice and advocate for my dog. If this group may tell me to talk to the vet about increasing a med, I now feel comfortable doing so. If the vet(s) agree, that's great - or, they may have a valid reason why they are not comfortable increasing it, we'll talk about it. My favorite question this week has been What are the consequences of doing nothing or what are the consequences or side effects of doing something else they say.
When they are having issues that you don't think are normal, call the vet. Don't be afraid to speak up. We had our dog into the e-vet Tuesday night - Wednesday. We weren't completely satisfied with things and are now getting a second opinion (well, technically he's seen 5 vets for his neck issue, but only second opinion for getting an MRI).
The hardest part for me is reading info on here and when I speak to the vet, I often forget what this board told me to inquire about. I now have a little notebook that I write notes down in. We are lucky to have a wonderful vet who is a great advocate. She's not afraid to tell us straight up what are her areas of expertise and what areas she thinks seeing a specialist to get a full grasp on the issue would be best.
Anyways, don't feel discouraged! You are doing a great job. Just continue to be a great advocate for you pup. Sending many healing thoughts to Belle! I hope the next 8 weeks go by quickly and shows signs of healing!
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 14, 2013 11:22:26 GMT -7
How are you and Belle doing?
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Post by technocowboy on Jul 2, 2013 8:28:32 GMT -7
A few updates from the last few weeks. Sorry, these are C&Ped from my Facebook:
June 13: She’s been in the crate a week and a half, nearly two. She’s still whiny as hell and MOUTHY (which does not come from me, no matter what my friends say). She rarely barks, but she talks at us. It’s like living with a miniature Wookiee.
Leon talked to the vet tonight. We got more Tramadol for her and found out that there’s more of a danger to taking her off it too early than leaving her on too long. That surprised me. She’s got three more days of the sucralfate and she’s done with that. Her antibiotics are done. The doc told us that we should start massaging her back legs (I GET LAP TIME! And I nearly started crying when I heard that) for short periods of time -- 10-15 minutes a day, just to get more circulation and stimulation in them.
She’s been standing more and walking with small, slow steps when we’ve got her going potty. The doctor is very happy with her recovery, but she did tell us that it’s a possibility that she won’t make a full recovery. It’s possible that she will, but we needed to prepare ourselves that she might not. And that’s okay. I think we’ve both come to terms with that possibility. We’re making some changes for her. We’re getting steps for the couch. We’re getting a ramp for the end of the bed.
She also told us about Traumeel. Has anyone had any experience with it? It sounds like a very good thing, but I’m curious to get first-hand accounts before I experiment.
June 16: …and now it gets hard. She started jumping around like a ferret tonight when we took her out to go potty. She’s feeling really good at this point, and keeping her in the crate for more than 23 hours a day is going to be rough. On us. She’s gonna get REALLY mouthy, I think.
July 1: She’s lost a LOT of muscle in her back legs. However, she’s jumping around like a crazy thing lately. We know -- WE KNOW -- she has four more weeks to go, but the vet said we could hold her for short periods. She escaped her big crate tonight (Leon thought he had the door locked, and it evidently wasn’t enough) and came bounding into the kitchen while he was doing dishes. She’s sleeping all circled up instead of straight out, which is, in my opinion, a very good sign that her back isn’t hurting.
She’s getting better, and she will continue to get better. We have a minimum of two weeks and probably closer to four weeks more recuperation time, and then my baby gets to cuddle in bed again. We need to get ramps and stairs real soon now.
July 2: I’m pretty sure that she’s doing things just to thwart us at this point. We fed her this morning (a mix of wet and dry food) and when the remainder of it got stuck in the bottom of the bowl, she shoved it to the back of her boxer-sized crate and flipped it over, so I had to open the door, reach way back in, and get the bowl, so I could mix it up a little bit so she’d eat the rest. In the meantime, she started barreling around the living room. She was UNHAPPY when I put her back in.
We're at 4.5 weeks. Another 3.5 to go. On the downhill side!
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Post by katie78 on Jul 2, 2013 9:49:38 GMT -7
Hi there I became a member last year in June 2012 when my Ollie went down but had to re register as I had not been on a while and forgot my details. I know how stressful and upsetting this is for you it's horrible and such a confusing time when you get told one thing from the vets and one thing from here. Ollie was 7 when he started shaking and couldn't walk when we took him to the vets they basically said he needed surgery or his outlook was not a good one. He was given a steroid injection and Tramadol to take home and come back the next day to decide on surgery. luckily for us I met a lady in the waiting room with dachshunds and she recommended crate rest instead of surgey and gave me some hope. Ollie also was completely paralysed and was unable to wee and had diarrhoea.To cut a very long story short after a week of Daily vets visits and invaluble support from dodgers list and acupuncture Ollie was able to wee again on his own and the vets finally stopped talking about putting him down. I to found crate rest unbelievable hard and I lost 6lbs in a week through stress, I cried non stop! I took him out every hour with a scarf under his back end to hold him up and eventually he becan to walk which we where not expecting at all. At best we though he would be ok but be on wheels but nope he proved myself the vets all wrong. Without dodgers list I don't think I would of been able to see light at the end of the tunnel and would of listened to the vet and had him put down as it seemed so cruel. But it sounds like your abelle is doing fantastic already but don't be fooled into thinking its ok to stop crate rest. The longer they rest the more chance thy have to heal. Ollie is now walking running around as normal but I do treat him like glass now lol no jumping, stairs or long walks. Our vets still cannot believe he's walking again, hopefully next time they see a dog with IVDD they will give the owner hope, they piffed at this site but the advice I go here was the best .trust me you are over the worst crate rest is the easy bit  stay strong your doing fantastic xxx |
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Post by Linda Stowe on Jul 2, 2013 15:32:38 GMT -7
Jeremy, it is good news that Belle is now starting to show the signs that healing is taking place. Be very careful now about her escaping etc. You certainly don't want to undo all the progress she has made. These guys are just too smart and devious. Its all about tough love now. What were the exercises your vet recommended? Always curious. As for the Traumeel, we've heard it recommended before. We have a good article on supplements. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htm Supplements are questionable as to whether they reach the discs because of the blood/brain barrier. Belle is doing great. Keep up the good work. |
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Post by Stacy & Fred on Jul 2, 2013 16:47:01 GMT -7
Hi..my name is Stacy and my dogs name is Fred. Fred is just hitting week 4 of crate rest and is MAD! He barks..yells..stomps...whines..growls..tried to jump his potty pen fence...but..he is feeling well enough to do it! Hang in there..you are not alone. Glad to hear Belle is on the mend ..and Fred just finished his Kong..lovely..and now the barking LOL.. |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jul 2, 2013 16:54:32 GMT -7
Wonderful news that Belle is doing so well - I am so happy for all of you |
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Post by jochs311 on Jul 2, 2013 18:52:29 GMT -7
So sorry to hear about your Belle. Have you tried accupuncture? Our Tucker will be going for the 3rd time on Friday. Our regular vet isn't too great with IVDD and pretty much gave up on him. Told us its 100% paralysis and said he will never walk again and told us to consider a wheel chair. If I didn't find this site I don't know where I'd be. Our accupuncture vet said he is crazy thinking that. He has feeling! Ever since we started the accupuncture Tucker has been showing great improvement and we are not giving up like our vet did. We were very scared at first too. This site is a wealth of knowlage. Read, read, read. That's the best advice I can give. Sending healing thoughts and prayers to you and Belle.
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Post by technocowboy on Jul 2, 2013 18:56:25 GMT -7
She recommended thigh and hip muscle massage, just to keep her legs from getting completely atrophied. I don't think there's much to be done in that case, though, since she walks around her crates. She's not getting as much exercise, to be sure, and I'm hoping all that muscle mass that she's lost comes back.
What are some suggestions for when she can finally get out? How much exercise do we want to give her? Sure, walks and potty breaks, but how long should we take her out for walks for?
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jul 2, 2013 19:03:25 GMT -7
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stay strong your doing fantastic xxx
