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Post by callibos on Jun 1, 2013 2:53:41 GMT -7
Hello all I've finally taken the time to register on the forums but have been frequenting this site for the past 2 months. My 7 year old labrador Buddy starting developing problems a little over two months ago. I have looked to this site for tips and support and it has been very helpful. Rather than write about Buddy's story I'd like to show you with a video I created documenting his progress. Heres the link: I am aware that I broke some of the rules for crate rest in this video. I am not trying to contradict what is said on this site, but rather to provide hope that I received from this site back to the people on it. It was necessary for some movement at times, he wouldnt do his business unless he moved a little. It was either that or a trip to the emergency room as he would not pee for 12 hours at a time in the beginning. Really with the exception of clips from this video, he walked with my support and a towel. Heres his medical info. Hes on prednisone (now at 20mg every other day) Tramadol 50 mg 5x a day and just came off of Methacarbomal. I'd love to hear feedback. Thanks, Tony
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,590
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 1, 2013 8:11:27 GMT -7
Tony, it is a joy to see how Buddy's nerves have self repaired, he still has good potential for further repairs as nerves are slow healing….so think in terms of months even a year out. Because Prednisone and Tramadol can be masking the signs you are to observe for, it is NOT a good idea to be off 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times until he is totally off all meds. Monitoring is for the signs that not all the swellling in the spinal cord is gone. Signs of pain are shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy. On the taper the dose is lowered to less than the anti-flammatory dose and that is the time to assess just how well reduction of swelling is going by observing for pain. So the verdict is not yet in and Buddy should still be on STRICT crate rest. Usually the pain meds are backed off or stopped during the taper so there is no false idea of what is going on with inflammation and the pain it causes. When is the last day for Pred scheduled for? Can you discuss also going of tramadol now with the vet? Was he ever on a stomach protector (Pepcid AC) these many weeks of Prednisone use? When his is fully off all meds and no pain, then have you considered how to reintroduce him back into physical activities? Some very good ideas at the column on the far right including making you home back friendly: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm#afterrest Let us know what your vet says about stopping Tramadol to get a clear picture on swelling reduction.
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Post by callibos on Jun 1, 2013 11:59:09 GMT -7
Paula, Thanks for your feedback. As far as prednisone, his last day will be Monday the 8th. He has been on Prednisone since April 9th, starting at 40 mg a day then down to 20 per day and now 20 every other day.I have been giving him a stomach protector (famotiditine 20mg) with each dose. He has been on tramadol 5x a day the whole time. When I spoke with her I told her about his signs of pain decreasing. He would have teeth chattering, be reluctant to move and have spasms.I havent seen any of those signs in about 2 weeks. I will discuss tapering his tramadol with the doctor. She has suggested a gradual return to physical activity, giving him some freedom of movement for short periods of time while supervised and gradually increasing that in 2 week increments.
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Jun 1, 2013 13:35:28 GMT -7
The video was very touching. I hope it gives hope to others.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 2, 2013 9:48:31 GMT -7
You have done a wonderful job of documenting Buddy's IVDD journey. Thank you for sharing this video. I would love to (if I can figure out how to save the clip) use it as a resource to show others - people whose uninformed Vets have only given their dogs the surgery or euthanasia options. You did a great job of adapting the "rules" to fit your dog and life style and none of us are perfect at this - not a one. Thank you so much - give Buddy a hug, cookie and kiss from me!
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Post by callibos on Jun 2, 2013 13:17:06 GMT -7
Stevieluv, Thanks for your support. It was actually very theraputic for me to be able to make this video. I remember how I felt when he first started having problems and a video like this would have been great to have. Beyond dodgerslist, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot out there for IVDD, or disabled dogs in general.The more the better as far as I'm concerned. Also, you can click on the description at the top which takes you top the you tube page. From there you can copy the link and post it or send it. Cookies, hugs and kissses given! -Tony
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Deborah & Angel
Helpful Member
No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Jun 4, 2013 15:20:31 GMT -7
Tony, the video was very touching and made me cry. They gave my FurBaby a 40% chance of complete recovery with surgery. It was BAD, she did VERY well and has recovered 100%, I am so blessed. You are a GREAT Dad, and are doing a GREAT job, keep up the good work and in no time, your FurKid will be back to nonmal, Many (((hugs)), and Prayers coming to you from Washington, Pa..
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Post by callibos on Jun 4, 2013 16:28:43 GMT -7
Djaustin, Thanks for the support it really helps. As you know, its not always a smooth road. Sometimes its hard to keep a lab calm, but were doin the best we can.
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Deborah & Angel
Helpful Member
No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Jun 5, 2013 7:22:28 GMT -7
Your VERY welcome, and you are doing a GREAT job...Hang in there!!!
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Post by callibos on Jun 5, 2013 16:21:30 GMT -7
Quick update on Buddy-I spoke with the doctor and he is being weaned off of the tramadol a little every 2 days. He is now at 3 per day 1 every eight hours. June 8 is his last day on prednisone after having been on it for 2 months thank God. In following my vets advice, he is now off crate rest and moving about the house under supervision. Still being crated at night and when I'm not at home.Having said that, I want to address that I am getting conflicting messages about Buddy's care. In one of the responses I was advised to keep Buddy on crate rest until he is off of medication. My doctor has stated it's time to start him have a bit more freedom so that he can build up his leg muscles. This conflict is really stressing me out. I want to do what is best for Buddy. I want to be brutally honest here: why should I take the advice of someone on a website over what my vet says? I know the people on here have some experience with this type of thing, but at the same time they are not Vets. If someone could help with how I can resolve this issue of how I can approach this with my doctor that would be really helpful. Thanks to everyone for their supportive responses!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,590
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 5, 2013 20:25:47 GMT -7
What would hurt to keep him crated until June 8 when Tramadol is out of his system and the Pred as well. Then you have a clear picture on whether this is any swelling left. If he shows no signs of pain then it is then time to begin a slow program of reintroduction back to physical activity because you are certain there is no more inflammation going on in the spinal cord. It is your decision on whether to play it safe and assess Buddy when he is off his meds about pain/swelling. We are not vets, but since 2002 we have seen 1000s upon 1000s of dogs, how vets prescribe. It is an obvious pattern. All we do is relate to you what we see that works. You are the team captain… you hire the vet, you do your reading and self education and have the final responsibility to make decisions for your dog. Dr. Swainson, DVM, ACVS talks about what happens when a dog is on steroids but crate rest is not enforced. The use of corticosteroids has been shown to effectively decrease inflammation and thereby decrease ménage and discogenic pain. Corticosteroids have also been shown to lessen the effects of severe spinal cord trauma. In this instance, prednisone probably decreased pain, which lead to increased activity and may have contributed to the ensuing paralysis [Note owners did not have the dog on 100% STRICT crate rest!]
Corticosteroids can also make patients with non-surgical IVDD more comfortable, but should always be used in conjunction with CAGE REST. www.canineortho.com/index.php/prognosis-intervertebral-disc-disease/27-neurosurgery-resources/76-case-study-down-but-not-out-new-thoughts-on-canine-disc-disease
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Post by callibos on Jun 5, 2013 20:40:19 GMT -7
Paula, I appreciate your response, it wouldnt hurt to wait a few more days. I have another concern as well, he has been on prednisone for almost two months, and has already had side effects. He has experinced muscle wasting in his facial muscles and his face has taken on a bony appearance. I am VERY concerned about extending his prednisone dose any longer than it already has been. Do you have any experience with prednisone side effects in dogs? If he were to have a relapse of pain, does your experince tell you it would be a good idea to extend his pred even longer?
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 5, 2013 21:02:35 GMT -7
Tony, To relieve your mind, Dodgerslist has 11 years experience with IVDD and thousands of dogs have recovered successfully because of the support and advice offered. It was started by Linda Stowe when a friend's Dachshund named Dodger was put to sleep by a Vet who was unaware of the treatment options that are available to successfully treat IVDD. Linda wanted to be a catalyst for change and education, so she started Dodgerslist and it has been growing ever since. Our former Yahoo mail list had over 5000 members and the present forum is rapidly gaining new members.. This is not a flash in the pan website that has been around a short time with minimal experience. We are here because each of our dogs have had IVDD and we have been through what all our members are going through now. Everything on our main website has been checked for accuracy by a Veterinary Neurologist. Please read our success stories. www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htmHere are some recommendations from Vets who are impressed with Dodgerslist. www.dodgerslist.com/index/nancykayDVM.htm www.dodgerslist.com/index/education.htm www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner.htm The information presented in the following articles has been reviewed for accuracy of information by appropriate veterinary professionals (ACVIM-Neurology, Licensed Veterinary Surgical Vet Techs and Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner) www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm Here is some info about getting back to gradual activity. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmI hope this helps! I loved Buddy's video! : )
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Post by callibos on Jun 5, 2013 21:10:34 GMT -7
Pauliana, Thanks for the links it does put my mid at ease a bit. I guess I need to understand my vets mindset concerning the crate rest to understand why there is a discrepancy.What I can say at this point is that he has made incredible progress as hes been tapered off of the prednisone. He went from 40mg per day to 20 mg per day and now 20mg every other day. He can now poop without my assistance, whereas 2 months ago he would fall over. Perhaps his progress indicated that he could graduate from crate rest, but I will update when I speak to her again.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,590
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 5, 2013 21:33:30 GMT -7
Not all vets know IVDD. Not surprising when you think of what a vet is responsible for. Most DVMs in a general practice see many different species- hampsters, cats, all breeds of dogs, reptiles, birds, maybe even farm animals. They practice many specialties in the course of a day: pediatrics, dentistry, surgery, internal medicine. Is it surprising, that keeping current and indepth knowledge of each and every disease for every species is probably not likely? However YOU can easily become a mini-expert on one very-important-to-you disease. Prednisone should be working to get swelling down.. it is one of the best anti-inflammatories. Once swelling is down the pain will resolve. With swelling gone, nerves are no longer pressured and they can begin to self heal. It is not the pred that heals nerves… they do that on their own. Often we must think in terms of month for nerves to repair themselves. So Buddy is healing just as textbooks say. You do your own reading and bring discussions to your vet. In the end it is not your vet who is responsible for his care but your responsibility. Disc disease is a tricky disease and not all vets are fully informed. We don't expect our own doctors to know every disease, we often go for 2nd opinions til we find a vet who can help. If you have a full under standing of this disease, what the purpose of the pain meds, the anti-inflammatory are for, what the purpose of crate rest is for, then you become a very good Captain of Buddy's health care team. You move into a position of being able to recognize when harmful advise is given and when to say "no, thank you.' We all have had to take on the job of reading and learning. Everything IVDD is located on our main web page….all accumulated and available to access if you want to get up to speed. www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm
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Post by callibos on Jun 5, 2013 21:54:02 GMT -7
Thanks Paula, I have and will continue to do reading concerning this disease.Maybe you didn't see the response above- I wanted to know if you had any advice concerning continuing prednisone if necessary. He has already experinced muscle wasting in his facvial muscles and I am very concerned about putting him back on it if he has a relapse.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,590
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 6, 2013 8:25:00 GMT -7
Muscles will come back….when there is a disc episode there is a real need to protect the spinal cord which may not come back if too severely damage. Prednisone works on getting spinal cord swelling down. All of life is the weighing of risk vs. benefit. Let's think positive that once off all his meds that no signs of pain will appear and he will no longer need to be on any meds at all!
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Post by callibos on Jun 6, 2013 16:27:01 GMT -7
Got a message from my doctor concerning crate rest issue. First, I need to provide a bit of background info I probably shouldve provided before. I could not afford an MRI for him, but we did get xrays. The xrays show a disc problem, but she couldnt tell if its a herniated or ruptured disc. She explained that without surgery, if the disc ruptured and there is disc material still in there that he may have some degree of pain for the rest of his life unless/until he gets surgery. So the thinking here is that we can find out if theres what degree his pain will be without prednisone, possibly needing to stay on tramadol. I have yet to discuss long term pain relief plans with her but will do so later tonight. If anyone has an alternative explanation of how he can be pain free if theres disc material in there, I would be willing to hear it, as well as any suggestions of how this can be achieved. Thanks, Tony
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Post by aak & Pookie on Jun 6, 2013 16:44:46 GMT -7
That is wonderful he's doing so well. My dog also lost movement in his legs last week. He has been doing crate rest and he's doing better.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,590
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 8, 2013 8:36:25 GMT -7
Tony, the way conservative treatment works is -- crate rest to allow the disc it self to self repair…that only happens with little movement -- the hope is with time IF there was a rupture the disc pieces will shrink back/ be resorbed and allow the spinal cord to function and pain to resolve which is DOES in so many cases. -- IF there has been several attempts going off pred and the pain med, yet the pain will not resolve..surgery would then be a serious consideration to avoid a life of discomfort and pain.
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Post by callibos on Jun 8, 2013 12:25:23 GMT -7
Paula, Thanks for your responseIve decided to go with your advice and take the safe route of keeping him on crate rest till after he is off of prednisone. He did show a bit of pain two days ago, but hasn't shown any since. Neurological functions still the same. He has recently shown the ability to hold himself up when pooping, so I have let him do that. The doctor says this may have caused some soreness. She said its good to let him so that he can maintain leg strength. Is this a bad idea, would you recommend I still support his backside? My doctor says I shouldn't jump the gun and bump him back up on the prednisone just yet. You also said any sign of pain must be swelling from the spinal cord, but my doctor is telling me it could be soreness or spasms as well. Please be aware that I am questioning the doctor as much as I am questioning you, just wanna make sure I'm doing the right thing.He is now on 2 tramadol every 12 hours and by Monday I can have him off it completely. Finally, once hes off pred, how long without pain before I let him off cage rest? Thanks, Tony
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Post by Jude & Penny Lane on Jun 8, 2013 22:46:27 GMT -7
Tony, I'm a little slow at reading other's posts, but I want you to know that your love for your dog is so very evident throughout the video. Thank you for sharing.
Buddy was a little worse than Penny. She didn't lose the use of her rear legs, but she had a much more pronounced wobbly walk than Buddy did in the video. She's doing a lot better now, but she still has some rough days, fewer all the time, however. I believe your video will give others courage in continuing their fight to help their dogs get well once again. It's a long journey. Peace.
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Post by Jude & Penny Lane on Jun 8, 2013 23:34:20 GMT -7
Tony, many years ago my female Rottie at the time, Mandy, got sick and the vets ran all kinds of tests and were unable to find out what the problem was. On Valentine's Day when she was 6 y.o., she went outside in the morning to pee and fell over and couldn't get up. My husband was on active duty, so I had to get her into our vehicle and I took her to the vet's office without an appointment. The vet had to carry her in to the office. When he put her up on the examining table, he said, "Oh, Mandy..." She had lost almost all of her muscle mass since she had seen him the previous week. Her backbone stuck out all over, like a dinosaur's skeleton. She couldn't stand on her own. The vet put her on prednisone and she remained on it for months. She recovered but never did regain her proprioceptive sense of where her rear feet were. For the rest of her life, she would fall down if her nails got a little too long. She lived until she was 12 y.o. and was healthy in every other way. For that reason, I am not afraid of prednisone. Without it, I would have had to have her euthanized. Instead, she had a great life and walked or hiked with us to the end.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,590
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 9, 2013 11:42:10 GMT -7
Tony glad to hear you will keep him on crate rest til the completion of the pred taper and off all meds. I might observe for a couple of days once off pred and all pain meds before starting a slow introduction back into physical activity. Ideas and sample schedule here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmThat some good news you have reported being able to hold himself up to poop. Several days ago under what circumstances did he show pain? What where the symptoms…yelping, shivering or It has not happened since? Let us know how the continued taper of pred goes and the stopping of Tramadol on Monday…then you will have a more opportunity to assess for signs of pain.
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Post by callibos on Jun 9, 2013 14:42:38 GMT -7
Jude, Thats a helpful story, its good to have an example of someone else who has been on pred for that long and benefited from it. Having said that, today is Buddy's last scheduled dose of pred and I hope everything goes well but if he has to go back on it I'll feel better.
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Post by callibos on Jun 9, 2013 14:52:21 GMT -7
Paula, First off, I screwed up on the date for his last pred. Its actually today. The last time he showed pain was on Thursday morning when getting him uip for his morning "walk". His thing that he does when he shows pain is to chatter his teeth. During the first 2-3 weeks he did it almost every time he would have to move. This time, it was 12 hours after his last tramadol and 1 day after his breakthrough with pooping. He has not done it since, including today and has not shown any other negative signs (tight tummy, shivering, etc.) It seems it was an isolated incident. Counting this past time, he has only showed pain twice in the last 3 1/2 weeks thank God. About to give him his last dose of prednisone, and will keep a strict watch over him the next few days. I should also mention that although he walked well in my video, he doesnt always walk that well and sometimes his back end will sway. Im a bit worried about him bumping into things once hes off crate rest. I will try and move furniture so that it doesn't happen, but he is a lab after all. Should I be worried about the occasional bump?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,590
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 9, 2013 15:53:23 GMT -7
Very glad to hear the pain was an isolated incident….could have been learned pain that had happened to him in the past or ? The positive news is there have been no other signs of pain. We we have been sick in bed, our legs can get a bit wobbly with lack of use….. so once you have observed him for a couple of days and then begin a slow, incremental reintroduction back to physical acitivity, his legs will get a chance to improve muscle tone and steadiness. If you feel on the reintroductory phase that there is too much swaying do use a sling as kind of a back up in case his butt might topple over until such time as you see he is more steady. Please do let us know how it all goes.
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Post by callibos on Jun 13, 2013 15:45:46 GMT -7
Hello all just wanted to give an update on Buddy. Things are going very well, he has been off tramadol and pred for four days now and no sign of pain or neurological decline. Today i've started to give him a bit more freedom and I hope to make another video showing off his progress. Hes pretty wobly at this point and I hope that he improves over time. Thanks to everyone for all their support and help, it's been a very long and hard road. Will keep you updated on progress.
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Post by Linda Stowe on Jun 13, 2013 15:55:54 GMT -7
Wonderful news. Look forward to seeing the video.
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Deborah & Angel
Helpful Member
No current back issues... Living Life.. <3
Posts: 294
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Post by Deborah & Angel on Jun 13, 2013 16:30:45 GMT -7
Great news Tony, give Buddy (((hugs)))) for me and still praying for a speedy recovery..
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