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Post by cynthiab on May 22, 2013 18:07:11 GMT -7
My dog Mocha was recently diagnosed with mild IVDD - we noticed last week he was yelping when picked up sometimes and hesitated to do stairs or jumping. We took him to the vet on Friday, where he was given pain meds and anti-inflammatory, but Saturday night he started screaming from pain and refused to walk, so we brought him to the ER. They could not do anything for him there, and again we brought him to the vet on Monday and again today where they told us 2-4 weeks of crate rest. The specialist today said if he is not getting better in two weeks he will need surgery.
I am very worried because I can see his condition deteriorating. Initially he was still active, but it seems that every day he moves less and is having more trouble walking with his hind legs.
The vet told us to wait two weeks before doing anything other then crate rest, but I am so afraid since his walk is getting worse that he may become paralyzed. We have been to three doctors now all saying basically the same thing, but I am so worried about him it is breaking my heart.
Has anyone else been in a similar situation? What was the outcome? When do you think I should push for surgery or not?
Thanks so much!
Cynthia
P.S: Mocha is on Novox, Tramadol and I've been giving him Benadryl to relax. He's been having diarrhea since 5:00 AM today. NO blood in the stool ( THANK GOD!). I also changed his wet food lately, so I'm not sure what's causing the diarrhea but he looks pretty tired today and I'm still waiting for his specialist and vet to call me back and tell me what to do.
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Post by Pauliana on May 22, 2013 21:02:56 GMT -7
Hi Cynthia, welcome to Dodgerslist! Sorry to hear Mocha has been having such a rough time and having been through all this, can totally understand how upset you are. In order to help you more, what breed is Mocha? Is he still on medications for inflammation and pain? What are the exact names of the medications and dosages and the frequencies given? Here is a link explains when surgery is the best option and as you scroll down it compares the two treatment options: conservative or surgery: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm. This may help you to understand both healing techniques and make a decision. Please let your Mocha know with your utmost confidence that things are going to be ok…because they will. With this disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The unknown is simply a scary place. Get ready to fight this disease now and in the future by knowing all things IVDD. There is no better place to start than on our main web page with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmCrate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks only out to potty for conservative treatment helps to heal the disc. Think of it as a cast on the broken limb..It is lack of movement that helps the disc to heal. Medications can heal the inflammation and mask the pain but it is limited movement that heals the disc. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm It's important that Mocha see a vet that is well versed with IVDD, preferably a Neurologist. Please check these links below for a Board Certified Neuro or Ortho Vet. I know it is so frustrating going to vet after vet, especially when some aren't comfortable treating it the right way. My Tyler got excellent care at a University Vet teaching hospital and he has recovered very well indeed. You can read his story from the link in my signature line. Board-certified neuros (ACVIM) and ortho (ACVS) surgical specialists can be found at University vet teaching hospitals. You can locate others in your area here: www.acvim.org [neuros] www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/DiplomateDirectory/ [orthos] Here is a link that gives advice on how to find an IVDD Veterinarian. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmYes there are many, many members here including myself that have had the same things happen with our dogs. You are not alone and are among friends here. Please read some of our success stories here to give you some hope. www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htm |
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Post by cynthiab on May 23, 2013 7:13:16 GMT -7
I can't thank you enough for these articles! They're lifting my spirit and giving me hope. Sending you so much love and gratitude!
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Post by Pauliana on May 23, 2013 8:49:48 GMT -7
Hi Cynthia, I am glad the articles are helping! How is Mocha's pain levels today.. I am concerned.. Please let us know the dosages of the Novox and Tramadol so we can make sure he is pain free dose to dose.. It's important because he can't begin to heal while pain is an issue.. Benedryl has a very sedating effect. Did you get the correct dosage from your Vet? Also ask your vet for Pepcid AC to protect Mocha's stomach while on Metacam. Ask the vet this way: Is there any medical reason why Mocha can't take Pepcid AC to protect his stomach. We believe in Veterinarians that are proactive in protecting IVDD dogs stomachs. Tyler's Vet at Purdue University said IVDD dogs are prone to acid problems.. The diarrhea can be caused by a change in food but can be from stomach problems too. Make sure to ask for Pepcid AC and also Sucralfate which work differently to protect the stomach.. Pepcid prevents the acid and Sucralfate coats the stomach and bandages the irritated areas in the tummy.. Sending comforting and healing thoughts to you and Mocha..  |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,936
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Post by PaulaM on May 23, 2013 8:56:48 GMT -7
Cynthia have you been doing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times since 5/22? If you have been doing STRICT rest and neuro function decline rapidly, that would be a time to consider surgery and alert your Neuro of your observations and not wait for the two week visit. As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle 5. Legs do not work (paralysis, dog is down) 6. Bladder control is lost 7. Tail wagging with joy is lost 8. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for successful surgery. Surgery can still be successful in the window of 12/24 hours after loss of deep pain sensation. Even after that window of time, there can still be a good outcome. Each hour that passes decreases that chance. Precious hours can be lost with a vet that gets DPS wrong. We do not recommend any diet changes for the reason you noted…there is no way to know if this is a serious side effect from Norvox or a temporary food change. Take no chances. Get both Pepcid AC (famotitine) which you can get at the grocery store AND sucralfate which is an Rx item from your vet. As always read up on each med your dog is on or may be taking as a safety measure: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.html and good to know ALL the adverse signs to monitor for and what to do: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmPlease let us know the details on the meds….exact name, dose in mg and how often you give them. Is his pain fully undercontrol today: no trembling, no yelping, no reluctance to move in the crate? |
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Post by cynthiab on May 23, 2013 9:06:59 GMT -7
I don't know if he's in pain. He's just not eating or drinking and he looks very tired. He's taking novox 25 min 1/2 tablet twice a day and tramadol 50 mg 1/2 tablet twice a day. along with 1/2 table of benadryl to keep him calm.
He's going to see the vet in two hours and hopefully getting his MRI done tomorrow.
Is it normal for them to lose appetite? the vet is going to do blood work to see why this is happening.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,936
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Post by PaulaM on May 23, 2013 9:23:48 GMT -7
Mocha, was never prescribed the usual stomach protector when any anti-inflamamtory is in use. Is it highly suspect the not eating/drinking is due to GI tract problems developing. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAIDs. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not to take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID. Pepcid is generally considered a safe-over-the-counter suppressor of stomach acid production for a healthy dog and good insurance. Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmYOu did not yet tell us the dose in mg and how often you give Tramadol. Not moving/lethagry/ not their normal perky self IS a sign of pain. Most vets make sure there is full pain control with Tramadol 3x a day, adding in methocarbamol for the pain from muscles. So your vet has many options to make sure Mocha is not suffering. Please do give us the details of mg and frequency for all meds. Can you be specific on his neuro functions this am: Can he move his legs at all or wobbly walk? Can you make him wag his taill with some happy talk? Have you found any urine leaks in his bedding or does he leak when lifted up? An MRI is used as a planning tool for the surgical procedure. Often vets will not operate on a dog who can still move his legs as they want to try conservative treatment first. More information on conservative vs. surgery: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm |
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Post by cynthiab on May 23, 2013 9:30:08 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
He's taking tramadol 50 mg: 1/2 tablet once a day but i gave it to him twice day yesterday (based on the vet's recommendation)
Novox 25 mg: 1/2 table twice a day
1/2 tablet of benadryl 25mg twice a day
Can he move his legs at all or wobbly walk? Yes, he can move. he went potty and was able to walk. BUT wobbly walk.
Can you make him wag his taill with some happy talk? He was barely moving his happy tail, he looks very unhappy
Have you found any urine leaks in his bedding or does he leak when lifted up? NO urine leakds in his bed.
I tried feeding him his wet food + treat again with no success. BUT, i was holding a piece of bread and he was starring at it. So I gave him some and he ate it.
The vet said to take him to emergency right now and get his MRI tomorrow.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,936
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Post by PaulaM on May 23, 2013 9:37:58 GMT -7
YOUr vet has been under medicating for pain! Pain control is the number 1 thing to address outside of 100% STRICT crate rest. Since your vet is uncomfortable in treating a disc episode, it would be a good idea to get a consult with an ivdd knowledgeable vet, maybe the ER and most certainly the neuro specialist. Neuros deal with good pain management all the time. Do know that still having bladder control, still being able to walk but wobbly, makes MOcha still a good candidate to recover with conservative treatment. BUT you must find a vet who know IVDD and can treat pain with the aggressiveness that a disc episode requires. Your education by reading, reading will be Mocha's protection: read all you can here: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm |
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Post by cynthiab on May 23, 2013 15:49:27 GMT -7
Thanks Paula! Mocha went to ER at the university of Georgia and he's under good care now. The neurologist just saw him and she's doing an MRI on him tomorrow. He's doing better than this morning... thank God!
Thanks for all your help! xo
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Post by cynthiab on May 24, 2013 15:27:32 GMT -7
Just to give you an update:
Mocha just had ivdd surgery and the doctor said that he's walking but little wobbly. She said that the operation went well but they had a small complication at the end. They were trying to inject him with pain killers and the needle came off on the spinal chord.
She said if anything bad were to happen, it would have showed up immediately. But since he's walking, she's confident that this complication will not affect his quality of life.
Have you had this experience before? Or know of someone who had? I'd like your thought on this and your advice about this complication.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,936
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Post by PaulaM on May 24, 2013 19:47:54 GMT -7
Glad to hear that the surgery has Mocha already able to walk! The wobbly walk will repair itself quite likely in no time. Any surgical procedure carries with it risks of the unexpected. I have not heard of a report of a needle getting stuck and since he is already walking apparently whatever trauma was not big. The surgery itself of picking out all the disc material is a trauma to the spinal cord too. So there usually is expected to be some temporary neuro setback until all the surgical swelling resides in about 2 weeks. The surgery looks something the video mid way down this page: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm |
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Post by cynthiab on May 24, 2013 19:52:28 GMT -7
Thank you Paula!
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Post by cynthiab on May 28, 2013 6:27:40 GMT -7
I have a question, the doctor just called me to tell me that she's extending his stay for 3 more days. That's going to be a total of 7-8 days for him at the hospital. She said he's in pain and she's not comfortabel sending him home.
Is this normal? I feel so anxious about this.
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Post by Sherry Layman on May 28, 2013 7:29:15 GMT -7
No, this is not "normal". Did you ask questions? There was the complication with the needle, did you ask if they plan any tests to see if this caused any complications? You need to be Mocha's voice and ask questions. Sometimes even when you don't know what specific question to ask just asking A question such as "why" or "what do you plan to do" and then be persistent if you aren't comfortable with the answer prompts them to realize you aren't a standy-by owner and you'll be watching them closely.
Follow-up today if they don't follow-up with you. If you didn't ask questions and they didn't offer explanations then call them and have a conversation. Not saying this is serious but it's an issue and the conversation needs to be had.
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Post by cynthiab on May 28, 2013 7:30:20 GMT -7
Thank you Sherry! I'll ask them today...I am going to see him shortly.
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Post by natureluva on Jun 5, 2013 15:13:35 GMT -7
Hi Cynthia, do you have an update on Mocha? Was the needle issue resolved? Has Mocha been discharged yet? Hope she's okay. We look forward to hearing from you. Best wishes, ~Lisa
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Post by cynthiab on Jun 5, 2013 15:16:25 GMT -7
Hi Lisa, Mocha was discharged last friday and he's doing so much better! The needle issue did not affect him at all ( SO GRATEFUL FOR THIS MIRACLE) and he's getting all excited and hyped up again But he needs to be strictly crated for two more weeks and then we can start some exercise for him... Thank you for checking in! I love this community |
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Post by natureluva on Jun 5, 2013 15:20:50 GMT -7
Cynthia, thank you for the update. I'm relieved to hear that all is well. Please keep in touch and let us know how he's doing. Hugs, ~Lisa
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Post by cynthiab on Jun 6, 2013 17:23:44 GMT -7
I have a question.. I'm not sure if this is normal.. But I took mocha out to do potty and I noticed that he skipped a step. Is this normal after surgery? he's going to his doctor tomorrow morning but I feel very worried. Also, before i took him out.. he was rolling on his back and he yelped a bit...
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 6, 2013 19:46:44 GMT -7
Hi Cynthia!
It's still early in his recovery from surgery. His movements need to be limited so he doesn't re tear his healing disc. Use the least amount of steps when he goes outside to potty by carrying him to his favorite spot and after he finishes carry him back to his crate/recovery suite. Here is a video that shows how to lift and carry Mocha to support his back.
The fact that he was rolling on his back is surprising. Usually they don't even want to do that until they have recovered a lot more. Mocha's incision is likely itching and that may be why he was rolling. Tyler didn't roll or lay on his back until 8 weeks after surgery. Mocha is still in pain if he is yelping, Please discuss with vet about the skipped step and the rolling on his back/ incision itching and pain.
Thanks for the update and please let us know what medications he was sent home with last Friday, the dosages and the frequencies given. Let us know also about his appointment tomorrow and if there are any changes to his medications..
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Post by Sherry Layman on Jun 6, 2013 19:48:46 GMT -7
I wouldn't worry about it tonight, since you are seeing the vet tomorrow just mention it then. Observe him for more "skipped steps" or further discomfort but I suspect both were nothing to worry about. He's not far out from surgery so rolling on his back could have smarted a bit but unlikely any permanent damage was done. I have a dog that skips a step now and then, were I not such an IVDD hawk I doubt I'd ever give it a second thought. Let us know what the vet says.
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Post by cynthiab on Jun 7, 2013 4:53:36 GMT -7
Thank you Sherry! I'll keep you posted!
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Post by cynthiab on Jun 8, 2013 16:29:17 GMT -7
Hi again, so mocha's surgeon told me to keep an eye on him. He looked like he was on pain in his right leg. Today, he skipped a step again and I notice that his walk is kind of wobbly compared to before. He did not take his steroid today because he's supposed to be on it every other day from now on. I also noticed that he extended his back leg for some time as if he was stretching it which he never did before and then he put it back in its place.
Is this normal for dogs when they get off steroid? His doctor said that she'll call me tomorrow morning. But I wanted to see if you had noticed any difference when your dog got off steroid.
I feel that he walked better few days ago than now.
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 8, 2013 20:05:56 GMT -7
Cynthia, Let your surgeon know right away that Mocha is in pain and not moving as well since tapering of the steriod to every other day..It's a sign he isn't ready to taper yet because the inflammation is still present. He may need a bit more time on the inflammatory dose of the steroid. What medications are currently being given and what is the name of the steroid? I am hoping during the extra time the Vet had him that he was treating his stomach problems and gave the steriod 4-7 days after Mocha stopped taking the NSAID Novox. "Steroids (dexamethasone, prednisone, prednisolone) Vets who practice safe medicine will look for a 4-7 day washout from a NSAID (i.e.metacam, etc) to a glucocorticoids (i.e. prednisone, etc) unless an emergency calls for a faster switch. Then it is a high consideration to double protect the stomach with not just Pepcid AC, but adding sucralfate ”Drugs of the NSAID class should not be used concurrently as the potential for the aforementioned side effects increases. For similar reasons, NSAIDS should not be used in conjunction with corticosteroid hormones such as Prednisone, Dexamethasone etc. Pfizer recommends a 5-7 day rest period when changing over to Carprofen or to another NSAID from Carprofen. Allow at least one week between Prednisone and Carprofen.” from:
www.marvistavet.com/html/rimadyl.htmlHow is his tummy doing now and is he eating better now and is he currently taking Pepcid AC and Sucralfate to protect his stomach? Has he had his staples/sutures out yet and how did the surgeon feel about his progress so far? Healing wishes over the miles.. |
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