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Post by Chewy The Malshi on May 22, 2013 10:26:57 GMT -7
Hi Everyone,
My Malshi Chewy had his first disc rupture last year, we did surgery without much improvement. I started acupuncture like a month ago and noticed big improvements but now another disc slipped on or around May 19. I'm going the conservative route because I don't think it's really worth doing another surgery since he is still paralyzed from last year but I'm having major challenges with the conservative treatment. Chewy is freaking out in his crate, he hates it. I work at a pet food company and I can bring him to work which is great so I can keep an eye on him. My concerns are the car rides to and from work. If I leave him at home he's with my mom and she's not too competant when it comes to expressing his bladder and stuff, so if I have him with me at work I get to make sure he goes potty and whatnot. The only issue is he barks in his crate so I have to put him on my lap. His acupuncturist said having him on my lap is ok but I read here that having them on your lap is a big no-no. I feel he is doing more damage by barking in the crate (not to mention I can lose my job if he doesn't shut up lol) and he tries to like headbutt the crate open. On my lap he's still as a log. Is this ok?? Is the car ride ok? Is it worse to have him at home and not getting his bladder expressed regularly or his meds fed to him regularly? Should I do the surgery again? I'm such a mess. Any advice would be nice.
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Post by Sherry Layman on May 22, 2013 11:52:48 GMT -7
Hi there and welcome to Dodgerslist. Could you clarify a few things for us so we can help you better?
Chewy had surgery a year ago. What symptoms has he had since the surgery that were not resolved?
What are the new symptoms that led you to realize you have a new disc issue at this time?
Acupuncture is a fabulous therapy both immediately during a new disc episode and long term for issues that don't resolve with surgery or crate rest. Acupuncture can help with so many health issues that you really can't go wrong using it.
As for his intolerance in the crate it is vital that you work to resolve that issue. Taking him to work with you is certainly risky, we don't advocate unnecessary car trips as the bouncing and jostling can certainly be detrimental to healing. Many pet stores carry herbal calming remedies which can be very helpful for dogs who don't like the crate. If those aren't strong enough Benadryl is safe for dogs but dosing must be prescribed by your vet. You vet can also prescribe stronger calming medications if needed. Chewy must absolutely be calmed in that crate though, his behavior is certainly going to cause further damage to his back or neck.
Behavioral training is also vital. When Chewy is acting out in any way ignore him, don't even look at him. When he is behaving properly in the crate tell him he is a good dog. Don't necessarily always go to him though, once in a while you can but not always. As soon as he starts acting up ignore him, leave the room if you must as even scolding him is attention which he seeks.
If your mom is one of Chewy's caregivers she must learn to express his bladder and give his medications properly. If she cannot or will not then she cannot be part of Chewy's care.
What medications is Chewy on at this time?
Does he exhibit any signs of pain? Shivering, shaking, reluctance to eat or drink etc?
If you can give us some good specifics on all his symptoms we can help you better.
Also, no lap time. Even though he is holding still your lap is not stable so his back is not well supported and can be further damaged. Also, it's amazing what even a paralyzed dog can accomplish as far as a jump or leap when properly inspired. Crate rest means in the crate at all times except for potty breaks.
We will look forward to your information so we can help you more
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Post by Chewy The Malshi on May 22, 2013 13:42:02 GMT -7
Thanks for the response! Chewy lost his deep pain last year and he is still paralyzed since last year. He has regained some movement but not all and definitely still drags himself and needs a wheelchair to get around. This second rupture happened on Sunday/Monday, he was having trouble bending down to get a treat off the floor and wouldn't eat or drink. Exhibited signs of pain, shaking, shivering, no eating, etc. I took him to the emergency and they said it's another disc. I took him to acupuncture yesterday and both the acupuncturist and neurologist say it's good that I can have him at work to keep an eye on him and express his bladder. If I leave him at home, I know his bladder will be super full because my mom doesn't really understand how to do it. I am lucky that my workplace allows dogs or I would be taking way too much time off for this.
The thing is our dogs have to be quiet at work. He will not be quiet in his crate and so I have to shut him up due to people being in meetings and stuff. Plus I don't want the actions of my dog to cause the company to just scrap the dogs at work policy. So I'm at a crossroads here. These are my two options:
1) Take him to work and he sits in a gated area I just made, but has to be driven by car, but gets his meds and bladder expressed. He's currently on gabapentin and dexamethasone, and chinese herbs that go with his acupuncture. ANother reason I bring him to work is that the acupuncture place is literally down the street from work so I can just take him there right after. I have created a gate that restricts him a lot so this can work instead of the crate, and maybe I can use the crate for the car ride to and from work?
2) Leave him at home where he won't get expressed properly. Anyways it's only my mom at home so no one else could really help unfortunately. I don't mind leaving him at home but I realize it's going to cause potential bladder infections/explosions because she just does not understand how to do it.
So I really don't know which trade off is worse. Bladder issues or travel issues.
He doesn't seem to be in pain right now I guess the meds are working and hes doing MUCH better than on Sunday/Monday when I noticed something was up. He wagged his tail a few times today which is promising, I'm just terrified of losing that deep pain again. He has acupuncture again tonight so I should get some more insight on that but I'm really going to work on not having him on my lap. He is currently on a pillow on the floor which is ok right? Is a crate in the car a good idea?
The acupuncture was helping him SOOOOO much. He was starting to stand on his own. Then boom another disc goes and I'm just not sure surgery is worth it again given that he is already paralyzed.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on May 22, 2013 16:14:50 GMT -7
Did he wag his tail due to your doing some happy talk or seeing you come in the house? Have you checked into some mild calmers to help him relax? Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Farnum's Comfort Zone with D.A.P. www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html [pheromone diffuser] with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php [Composure] 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com Plain Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) with no additional medications added. Buy at your grocery store or pharmacy. Get the dosage from your vet. The wrong dose can have dangerous side effects, so your vet needs to prescribe the proper amount for your dog. Other brands may be available in your area… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the lable. |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on May 23, 2013 22:08:57 GMT -7
Wow, you really have your hands full! I know that frequent car rides are not recommended, but you have to weigh all of the pros and cons. If you take him to work and can find a way to keep him quiet in his recovery suite, he can get the bladder care, medications, and the accupuncture treatments that he needs(he doesn't have to be in a crate, and there are instructions on this site for making a recovery suite which many dogs find less confining and tolerate better), however you do have the potential jostling of the car ride. If you leave him at home he doesn't get jostled, or his meds or his bladder care or his accupuncture treatments. You won't win the battle with your Mom over this, so you need to do what is best for Chewy, and for you, that may be having him at work - and that is OKAY! He will get used to the recovery suite or crate even if you have to medicate him to be quiet at first (or any of the other remedies suggested). Another option may be to have a friend come over once or twice a day while you are at work to express his bladder and give him his medications - I have been blessed to have that as an option. Keep us posted! Keeping you in thought and prayer.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,570
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Post by PaulaM on May 24, 2013 13:24:27 GMT -7
As Stevieluv says transporting has to be done safely for Chewy's back. If you can transport him in a crate, well padded with rolled up towels/blankets so that when you take a corner or brake Chewy does not shift, that may be an option to take him to work where you can make sure he can get his bladder expressed and his meds on time.
At work can you have as his recovery suite an ex-pen or a wire crate whichever he does better in.
Can you tell us the name of the Chinese herb. What is the dose of Dex and gabapentin in mg and how often are you to give them?
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Post by Chewy The Malshi on May 24, 2013 15:23:04 GMT -7
Ok so I've come to a solution! Thank you everyone for the insight and responses! I guess I will try to respond to as much as I can. His meds and herbs are as follows: Dexamethasone 0.5MG - one pill for the first 3 days, and now we're at half a pill a day, I think we have a week left of the half pill a day and then I guess the emergency clinic will tell me what to do at his follow up appt. Gabapentin 50MG, 2x/day (every 8-12 hours) Chinese herb # 1: " Double P II" capsules, half a capsule once/day Chinese herb # 2: " Qi Performance" 1/4 of the little scoop it comes with once/day. His acupuncturist assured me that the chinese herbs are ok with the western meds as long as his tummy can tolerate it. He was on the double P II 2x/day but we lessened it to once/day and added the Qi Performance cause it's more gentle for his tummy. This is what I have been doing the past few days that I've left him at home. I've reached an agreement with my mom and we're ok now and she tries to express his bladder in the middle of the day and she manages to at least get some pee out which is good. In the morning first thing I express his bladder, mix the double P II with peanut butter, add a gabapentin and 1/2 dexamethasone and pretty much spoon feed him that, and I'll spoon feed him some wet food with it so it doesn't upset his stomach. I then go to work and my mom expresses his bladder in the afternoon. I get home from work around 6ish, express his bladder again, and wait an hour or so before giving him the second dose of gabapentin. I mix the "Qi Performance" herb with peanut butter and feed him the Gab. Then I'll express his bladder one more time before I go to sleep. I think I can deal with this for the next 7-8 weeks  On the days he has acupuncture, I will bring him to work. I bought this thing that attaches to the car seat, it's basically a box that's secured to the seat, there's padding in it and I can always add some towels and stuff so he doesn't move or shift but it's pretty good in preventing that anyways! I made him a recovery suite at work so he will stay in that, and I bought an orthopedic pillow for it too. So if he starts freaking out at work, I can put the orthopedic pillow on my lap and him on top of the pillow if i REALLY have to. This is only if he's barking loudly to the point where it threatens my job lol. Soooo yeah I guess that's that! He's wagging his tail like crazy now by the way every time I pick him up to express his bladder, he gets so happy and wags his tail. It's awesome I'm so glad he can still do it. I'm also concerned because I was doing daily exercise with him to keep the muscle and now I'm afraid that if I stop he will lose it but I guess it is always easier to regain muscle than to deal with yet another slipped disc. Honestly I wish I knew about this site last year and that my vet wasn't so ignorant on this topic (don't worry I'm between vets right now haha). Better late than never though |
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Post by Sherry Layman on May 24, 2013 17:51:57 GMT -7
We do recommend Pepcid (famotidine) 20mg 5mg twice daily for stomach protection for any dog on steroids or NSAIDs...the dexamethasone is a steroid. It would be best to prevent stomach trouble for Chewy instead of waiting for signs and then treating as dogs are stoic and often by the time they exhibit distress the problem is quite severe. Do ask your vet if Chewy has any health problems that would prohibit him from taking Pepcid...don't ask if it's ok as some vets don't see the necessity, ask if Chewy has health issues that prohibit it's use. You don't have to make an appointment, just call and ask. If it's ok then get some right away, it can be purchased at most any store such as Walmart, Target, etc or any drug store.
It does sound like you are getting some better plans in place. The good thing about this is that you can settle your head and think clearly. If a piece of the plan isn't perfect you can tweak it a little as needed but sounds like you're making progress toward a nice arrangement.
Just an idea that's my own personal opinion, I find peanut butter to be a pain in the rear for meds and dogs can sometimes find the pill and will spit it out. I use mini marshmellows. They are so easy to grab out of the bag, stuff a pill into one and it won't fall out, most dogs love them so will swallow them quickly like a treat and you're done. If the pill is a little big I use two marshmellows, one for the pill and show the dog the second as I'm feeding the first so I'm sure the first goes down fast. If Chewy loves the PB and you don't find it to be a hassle then stick with it. Just thought I'd throw it out there since your trying to work on making things easy.
Is Chewy safe in his new mode of transportation? Does the "box" have a top or is it one of those dog car seat type things? He cannot fall out with an abrupt stop can he...the sides are tall enough? Just something to think about.
It would be most beneficial to Chewy to get him on an herbal calmer in order to avoid having him on your lap. Laps during crate rest are not a good idea at all. Paula gave you great resources in her post.
Absolutely no exercises at this time. Physical therapy can start when crate rest is over as the disc has had time to heal at that point. Most dogs do lose some muscle tone during crate rest but it is quickly regained once activity is allowed again. But any activity during crate rest prevents healing of the disc, rest is the priority right now.
Keep us posted on his progess and how things are going.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on May 24, 2013 17:54:26 GMT -7
I am so glad that you have found some solutions to all of those hurdles that you were facing. Keep us posted, we're all in this together Keeping you in thought and prayer |
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Post by Sherry Layman on May 24, 2013 18:01:31 GMT -7
I just realized I mistyped the Pepcid dose...apparently I cannot multitask tonight. The dose is 5mg. I did advise you correctly though that it is twice daily. I apologize.
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Post by Chewy The Malshi on May 24, 2013 18:20:51 GMT -7
This community is awesome wow I can't believe how fast you all respond! The car seat looks like this a.cdnbrm.com/images/products/large/pet_travel/kurgo_portsmouth_dog_booster_seat.jpgI don't know if I shoud have it up in the air like the dog in the photo cause that looks like it would be less turbulant for him. I have it almost touching the seat now and he literally just curls up in it and sleeps, I've never seen him behave that nicely in my car! There's also a hook inside that I can attach to his harness but I'm going to avoid putting the harness on him to begin with. This car seat is the best thing i can come up with instead of a crate because all he does is cry and freak out in it which I can physically see will do more damage. I will talk to the vet about the pepcid thing, I don't think he has any health issues against it but I'll double check. I also try to feed him canned pumpkin but he's starting to dislike it. I'll try the marshmallow thing with the pills if he finds his pills - this actually almost happened today. I use peanut butter to mix his chinese herbs cause they're a powdery texture, so I jsut try to kill two birds with one stone this way. The steroid is small enough but sometimes he knows the gabapentin is there, so I wil ldef try marshmallows! Thanks so much for that tip! |
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Post by Sherry Layman on May 24, 2013 18:27:28 GMT -7
I think putting his harness on him would be safest. It appears to me that if he were to be sitting up and you had to suddenly stop he could potentially topple out.
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Post by Chewy The Malshi on May 24, 2013 18:30:49 GMT -7
Ok so moving him to put a harness on is ok? I was afraid it would hurt him but i guess the benefits of him having it on outweigh the slight risk I would hurt him... but with my luck,... lol
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,570
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Post by PaulaM on May 24, 2013 19:05:19 GMT -7
If you have a wire crate or softside travel crate that would be the safest way to transport Chewy in a vehicle. That open top car seat scares me. Dogs do the unexpected in a blink of an eye. A soft side travel carrier can have any extra room padded out so he doesn't shift during the ride nor would he be able to jump out of it or try to as in the car seat. It is a good idea to do your own research on Chinese herbs…they involve many herbs in one bottle and each should be researched. It is a good idea to be a monitor for everything that goes in your dog's mouth. I found nothing about Qi Performance with a brief search. The information about Double P gives pause as to why it is being used with a dog with a neuro disease when the tried and true meds of anti-inflammatories, pain meds and stomach protectors are known to work. "COMMONLY SEEN TOXIC CHINESE HERBS AND PRECAUTIONS" Double P II is derived from the classical formula Da Huo Luo Dan. Herbs containing aconitine such as Double P II are toxic to the nervous system. Aconitine excites the vagus nerve and central nervous system first, and then leads to successive inhibition, and finally death because of paralysis www.tcvm.com/doc/TCVMNews2010SummerR.pdfAs Sherry mentioned exercise is not the focus during the healing time for the disc. Range of motion and massage as described in the highlighted PINK text and red numbers items pertains to how you should help his legs until they can move on their own: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmNow that the taper of Dex is beginning do be watchful for any signs of pain arising showing that not all of the swelling is gone and the need to be back on Dex for a bit longer. Do get the Pepcid AC on board as soon as possible to protect his stomach. Do you give Chewy the sniff and pee test periodically every other day or so? After happy tail wagging, bladder control would be the next neuro function to return. The only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry outdoors, set on an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. If urine comes out bladder control is returning. You should do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe. Sounds like you are getting things nicely in working order with some help from your mom and the set up at work! |
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Post by Chewy The Malshi on May 24, 2013 19:10:44 GMT -7
The Double P II is supposed to work with and extend the acupuncture benefits.. at least that's what the vet said! I'm going to take his word for it, I've been using it for over a month with success. About the sniff and pee test, he's been having his bladder expressed for over a year so I have not bothered with this test... it took a year for him to stop leaking and the acupuncture actually helped with that. I guess time will tell with the sniff and pee, I don't know if he even remembers his old pee spots since it's been so long
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Post by Chewy The Malshi on May 28, 2013 17:19:45 GMT -7
Ok so so far Chewy is doing great with the crate rest in his "recovery suite". I just have a few concerns I know I should ask my vet but I'm not seeing him till the 7th so... yeah. I've noticed a funny smell with his urine? No blood or anything and he is being expressed 3-4x/day. Just smells more... pungent? Could this be the meds or the extra treats we're giving him? Also, every time I pick him up to express him he moves like crazy! It makes me so nervous!! I set him back in his bed and he moved unexpectedly and his butt went into his food bowl like how do I control this? He hadn't moved his much after his first IVDD episode and I'm fully aware on how to handle him and whatnot but this is freaking me out? Also when he gets up and shakes it makes me so nervous but I can't stop him from shaking if he has an itch. His first acupuncture treatment is Thursday since his 100% STRICT crate rest... I've been humming and hawing over bringing him to work and then taking him to acupuncture or leaving him at home and taking him after work. At work I have a recovery suite for him, it's perfect and I have equipment for the car ride to be smooth, but it just makes me really nervous. There would still be a car ride involved if I left him home and took him to acupuncture after... I'm just so paranoid. If I left him home and picked him up and took him to acupunctre there's the chance I wouldnt even make the appointment cause it would be during rush hour and it's a good 30 minute drive.... down the street from where I work... so he'd be in a car that long regardless. This is so hard!! Every single thing I do freaks me out and makes me think he isn't going to form any scar tissue  I won't even put his collar on just in case a cervical disc slips like I'm so very nervous. I don't even know what the point of me posting is because I realize it's just me having anxiety over EVERYTHING with my baby. Good god I just got up to move and he looked at me and I'm terrified he moved his neck too much and might spark another slip!! Am I over reacting? Does anyone have any words of wisdom? I'm driving myself insane right? lol |
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Post by Nancy & Polly on May 28, 2013 18:01:14 GMT -7
Yes,you are driving yourself insane, and we've all done it. Take a deep breath, exhale slowly. Handle tomorrow in the way that is least stressful for you. Make sure that you calm yourself before every encounter with him. You'll be okay.
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Post by Linda Stowe on May 28, 2013 20:29:39 GMT -7
It sounds like Chewy may have a UTI from the way you describe the smell of his urine. Get a sterile sample to take to the vet.
Hang in there and do come to us with any questions or feelings. Thats why we are here.
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Post by Chewy The Malshi on Jun 15, 2013 11:21:33 GMT -7
Ok I just wanted to update everyone on Chewy! This Tuesday the 18th will be the halfway 4 weeks point. Chewy is OFF his painkillers and steroids! He went to the vet for a checkup and he is in NO pain at all! His vet doesn't think I need to do the crate rest the full 8 weeks but I am not listening to her and I'm going to wait it out to the 8 week point, which will be Tuesday July 16th. I just wnt to make 150% sure that that scar tissue is formed! Chewy is still doing acupuncture, once every two weeks. The acupuncture vet also agrees he is in NO PAIN!! And he said this second slip is not bothering him anymore, and we're still focusing on the first one from last year and to continue with the crate rest. I've been less paranoid about driving him to appointments and stuff. As for his bladder that I was freaking out about in my last point, he doesn't have an infection! His urine was just concentrated and he needed to up his water intake, couldve been a side effect from his meds but now that he;s off them he's ok. Now here is the MOST EXCITING NEWS. I don't know if it's the crate rest, or the acupuncture, or the chinese herbs hes taking, or a mystical force of some sort, or a combination of everything, but chewy is moving his back legs like a mad man. When I carry him to go potty, he's moving his back legs in an almost walking motion. They also tremble as he tries to move them. He tries to climb out of my arms WITH HIS BACK LEGS. It's been a YEAR of paralysis and I've NEVER seen anything like it!!! I thought this second disc slip last month was going to undo all the progress but i was wrong since that disc (i would imagine) is halfway healed! I AM SO GLAD I DIDN'T DO A SECOND IVDD SURGERY FOR HIM AND THAT I FOUND THIS SITE AND STARTED THE CRATE REST. Like I really don't get it though. He's not moving, doing STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty, and yet he has more strength in his back legs than I have noticed in the past 14 months that he's been paralyzed. How does this even scientifically make sense!? I can tell he's anxious to be done with the crate rest but I now understand how this is the greatest gift you can give your dog after a disc slip. I wish I had known about this the first time it happened 14 months ago. But I can't beat myself up because I had no idea what IVDD was, and the vet gave me the "surgery or euthanize" ultimatum. I really wish they knew more about crate rest!!! This is so amazing! He has lost a LOT of muscle mass on his back legs too which is making this crazy leg movement even more confusing to me! But hey I'll take it! Just wanted to update everyone who is going through this that the crate rest is TOUGH, but SO SO SO WORTH IT. I'm not even halfway done with Chewy and I'm seeing amazing results!!!! So happy right now and I cannot wait till we start the rehab again (very slowly, of course) in July when the 8 weeks are up. I also want to urge everyone going though this with their pup to definitely give acupuncture and laser therapy a chance. It's seriously amazing what it can do for your fur baby!!! |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 15, 2013 17:42:02 GMT -7
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PaulaM
Moderator.
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Posts: 19,570
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 15, 2013 19:47:45 GMT -7
Adriana, you are witnessing the body's ability to regenerate nerves….. we have had dogs as much as 3 years later have nerve functions return. Muscle atrophy will happen, but as soon as the 8 weeks of crate rest are finished, you will be able to start some water therapy to help those muscles bulk up again.
Please do keep us posted on how Chew is doing!
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