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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jun 17, 2015 23:55:02 GMT -7
Need recommendation of affordable surgery in CA , also can the spinal surgery be successful if it ihas been delayed for 5 months . My dog's back legs lower parts are paralyzed but still has deep plain sensation! Thank you!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 18, 2015 7:34:51 GMT -7
Carrie, welcome to Dodgerslist! Can you tell us a bit more about your dog so we know better how to help. ☐ What is your dog’s name? ☐ What breed is your dog ☐ How did your dog hurt his spinal cord, a disc episode, an accident, etc.? ☐ Did a general DVM vet or a board certified neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) tell you there is deep pain sensation? ☐ Currently have you seen him move the legs at all excluding moving during potty times? Can he wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk? ☐ Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? Are you having to express his bladder to keep him dry session to session? ☐ Dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies help to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. www.ahvma.org/find-a-holistic-veterinarian/Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. ☐ Have you been doing PT for your dog whether at a rehab clinic or at home exercises to keep the joints flexible and circulation up in paralyzed legs? This page will give you ideas for things you can do at home including water therapy in a $10 child's wading pool: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmSurgery at the time of the disc episode is to relieve pressure on the spinal cord so the nerves are not permanently damaged. Once nerves have been damaged, there is potential for them to regrow. We have had some dogs on this forum regrow enough to bring back leg function 11 mos out from the spinal cord injury. Another reason for surgery is if there is still pain that should have been resolved by the nerves learning to live around the problem disc....then surgery would be to remove that disc material away from the spinal cord area and relieve pain. We always recommend a consultation with a board certified neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) if you have concerns about surgery. I look forward to learning more about your dog.
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jun 19, 2015 13:40:18 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
My dog name Abby, she is a half Labrador mix, 4yrs, 35 lbs, we don’t know what is her other side of breed. I tested her paws by pressing it, she would draw back so I think she has deep pain sensation. She does moves all her legs a lot but cannot stand without I position all her legs , once she stand, she would not move because she lost control on the lower part of the back legs. Her paralyzed back legs upper part is so strong and kick a lot because she tries to stand. She constantly wags her tail when she is excited like normal before. I let her out to the yard to urine, she doesn’t wet the bedding. When I let her out, I lift her stomach with her front legs stand and back legs off the ground, she will immediately spread her back legs to urine, it seems she has control to hold the urine. However, she still pooping on her bed and everywhere.
You mentioned some dog's back legs regain function 11 months after the spinal cord injury, did you mean after the surgery or just received the therapy treatment?
Thank you very much!
Carrie
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 19, 2015 14:17:27 GMT -7
Carrie, 5 months ago what did the vet diagnose as the problem/disease resulting in damage to the spinal cord. Was that vet a general local DVM or a specialist ACVIM (neurology) or ACVS (ortho)? Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord. Abby does most certainly have DPS, she has bladder control and possibly purposeful leg movement! 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist, too many DVMs get this wrong) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement <- Abby!, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. Do you have a sling to aid Abby in practicing walking, going to potty? A sling would help save your own back from having to lift in an awkward position of bending over Abby. Something like the Walk About Harness or something similar? More info on the rear harness: www.walkaboutharnesses.com/products/walkabout-back-harnessI would suggest you spend your dollars on PT. Underwater treadmill can be very beneficial in getting those legs going — learning how to walk again —j ust like a stroke victim has to learn to walk again. This video will explain how the treadmill works and why it is so successful. Laser light therapy, acupuncture and electroacupuncture send a microcurrent of electricity to and from acupuncture points (which are really big nerve bundles). These therapies can be very beneficial at helping to re-establish the nerve connections in the body. When the nervous system gets stimulated it can respond by growing nerve endings. Any one of these therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration. Find a holistic vet here: www.ahvma.org/find-a-holistic-veterinarian/Chiropractic is never recommended for IVDD dogs.
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jun 19, 2015 15:59:35 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
Abby got the diagnosis from a local DVM and also radiology report to conclude suspecting T12-T13 intervertebral disc herniation.
I don’t have a sling, I will get one if that help Abby practice to walk, I thought it is just for me to lift her that why I didn’t use one.
So you suggest PT is better, I will definitely look in to that. Is the surgery will not be truly helpful at this point because it is too late now?
Thank you so much!
Carrie
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 19, 2015 17:22:38 GMT -7
Surgery seeks to decompress the spinal cord before permanent injury would happen at the time of the disc problem. Now if Abby were still in pain since 5 months ago, the surgeon would have a reason to go in and remove any disc pieces that the nerves could not learn to live with. You do not report any pain. Abby is showing that there is likely no permanent nerve damage to the spinal cord and because she DOES have bladder control and possibly purposeful leg movement, that bodes well for even more nerve healing. I would invest in PT. Here is a bit more information on nerve healing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jun 19, 2015 21:31:55 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
Thank you very much for the valuable information ! From you, I learned the surgery is not a solution to her status, I will focus on providing PT for Abby now, sounds like there is hope to see her walk again! By the way, Abby slowly shows a little improvement , she kicks both back legs and push her body up in standing position only a split second, I will post her update.
Thank you so much!
Carrie
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 20, 2015 9:59:12 GMT -7
Yeah, Abby, pushing up into a standing position!! She will get stronger and improve communication between brain, muscles, nerves with time. If your area has the underwater treadmill or you can do some water PT at your house with a child's $10 wading pool, that can be very helpful. More on water therapy at home: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htm
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jun 20, 2015 23:16:32 GMT -7
Here is the video of Abby's condition 2 months after the IVDD onset.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 21, 2015 8:42:37 GMT -7
Let us know how it goes with doing some at home water therapy and/or sling walking where the back end harness helps as water bouyancy would to make using her still weak legs have the ability to move on land. Hopefully your area does have the underwater treadmill as that kind of therapy really expedites learning to walk again much faster.
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jun 21, 2015 17:37:40 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
Yes! I will post Abby's update. We don't have much knowledge about PT, should we ttry with Laser or acupuncture first? Or both at the same time? Which one would you recommend?
Thank you very much!
Carrie
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 21, 2015 20:21:28 GMT -7
Hi Carrie, As Paula mentioned underwater treadmill would be very beneficial to Abby in helping her walk again. One of the most useful modalities for neurological patients recovering from IVDD is aquatic therapy. The aquatic therapy allows active muscle contraction with minimal weight bearing on joints and bones. It also allows patients that are weak on their limbs to be buoyant and have the ability to move. It is not unusual for a post back surgery patient that is not using its legs to walk on land, yet to use them when walking in the water. Laser light therapy, acupuncture and electro-acupuncture can be very beneficial to assist with re-establishment of nerve connections in the body. Any one of these therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration. With more severe neurological damage, these therapies work best when given together rather than separately. With more severe paralysis, electro acupuncture can be very effective. Laser therapy promotes healing because it simulates the cellular mitochondria (cell powerhouse) metabolism increasing cellular respiration, free radical scavenging and therefore promotes healing. It also helps to destroy bad bacteria and promote blood flow to tissues that need help and promotes healthy tissue growth! Amy Plageman U of FL Vet Tech Finding a veterinarian in pet acupuncture www.ahvma.org/find-a-holistic-veterinarian/ [holistic vets] www.aava.org/php/aava_blog/aava-directory/ [AAVA (American Academy of Veterinary Acupuncture] www.ivas.org/ [IVAS International Veterinary Acupuncture Society]
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jun 22, 2015 23:32:20 GMT -7
Hi Pauliana,
Thank you very much for explaining different type of PT. We are searching for a vet will provide different type of PT hopefully that allow Abby get the best result out of all the options. I will post her update.
Thank you again!
Carrie
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jul 14, 2015 23:04:24 GMT -7
Hi all,
I would like to share Abby's update, so we took Abby to Dr.Ilana Strubel MA,DVM, CVSMT, CCRT, in California Pacifica for the initial visit 2 weeks ago, Dr. Ilana spent two and a half hour to exam and gave Abby first Laser and Water Treadmill treatment, no suggestion on Acupuncture although her office has that treatment. Abby is receiving 10 water therapy and 10 Laser treatments, along with spinal electric stimulation device 15 mins 4 time a day at home, she needs to wear toes up boot too. we will get her a Walkin Wheels to help her learn how to walk again, the good news is Dr. Ilana said there is a good chance Abby will be able to walk on her own again!( Abby has not been able to walk at all on her hind legs since Jan this year)
These are the 2 video show her progress . After Abby received the 2nd Water and Laser treatment, she stood up for 45 seconds and with strength first time since Jan. After Abby received the 3rd Water and Laser treatment. Her hind legs show more strength walking faster on the treadmill.
Thank you very much Paula and Pauliana for all of your valuable information from here, it lead me to found solution and doctor Ilana.
I will keep updating Abby's progress.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 15, 2015 6:18:44 GMT -7
Thanks so much for this encouraging update, Carrie! How wonderful to see those legs moving like that on the water treadmill. It can take a very long time for damaged nerves to heal but you're giving Abby every chance to improve that healing. Kudos to you! I had a Walkin' Wheels for my Jeremy and he loved the freedom it gave him. If you live near the beach or a sandy area, you can get the bigger wheels that won't sink in the sand. Jeremy went right into the ocean in his cart and didn't get stuck in the sand. Please do keep us updated on Abby's progress.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 15, 2015 13:28:50 GMT -7
Carrie, how very, very fabulous to see those legs move in the underwater treadmill! Go Abby girl! Your after Jan 2015 conservative treatment video of the treadmill is pure hope and inspiration for those just starting the journey with a paralyzed dog. Would you consider helping Dodgerslist members in two ways: 1. Share a photo and a few words at the Gallery. Directions to upload a photo here: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/2262/put-dodgerslist-photo-gallery-calendarWe look forward to hearing more updates as Abbey continues to progress. 2. If you continue to like your PT person/clinic, consider sharing for those trying to decide on PT therapy by adding to our recommendation directory: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-posting vet recommendations: Name of Vet Name of Clinic Street Address City: State or country: Type of vet (general/board certified surgeon, acupuncture, rehab etc.) Comments:
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jul 15, 2015 18:45:10 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
I just uploaded Abby's picture. I will follow with vet recommendations.
Update again: I was told Abby wobbly walked a few steps then failed. Also, her hind legs were not knuckling when she walked. They were knuckling most of the time. A very good sign showed she seemed to have better control on her hind legs. PT is amazing.
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Post by Pauliana on Jul 15, 2015 20:08:32 GMT -7
Hi Carrie, I am so excited that the underwater treadmill and Laser therapy are working so well! She was walking perfectly on the treadmill! Way to go Abby!
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jul 16, 2015 20:21:04 GMT -7
Hi all,
I have the update of Abby today,check out this latest video, she is walking, yes! Unbelievable! I can see she will be normal walking again soon, her progress is incredible.
Thank you for all the valuable information you guys have given me. When Abby become paralyzed in Jan, we had no idea but did research and found this web site, we didn't put Abby to crate rest, however, we kept her in a small room, she could hardly move due to her paralyzed legs, she just layed on the mat most of the time. We kept her there for 3 months, let her out every other day to the living room and restricted her movement, all because we learned from this site. I think that might had help a little on her recovery Of cause when we had no idea and thought a delay spinal surgery would help Abby to recover, thanks to your advice for suggesting PT, not just we could save money( cannot afford 10K), it saved Abby.
PS: I will keep her update posted
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 17, 2015 8:28:54 GMT -7
Carrie, that video is extraordinary. Walking on land now! Abby is on a roll. I knew that underwater treadmill could expedite the art of walking but never have I seen it happen so fast. I bet your PT person is very happy with Abby's progress.
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jul 17, 2015 10:01:42 GMT -7
Yes Paula, I thought we would just try our best to provide the assistance to Abby, After 6 months of not walking , you would think it will take some times to get a little result! My family is still in shock of her progress!
Abby is having the 5 therapy section tomorrow, I will keep posting her update!
Thank you again!
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Jul 23, 2015 0:13:24 GMT -7
Hi All,
Update: Good news! During the 5th therapy visit, Dr.Ilana Strubel said Abby's hind legs are very strong, Abby might not need the Walkin - Wheels. Abby continue making progress. She is now able to turn her head all the way toward the back and clean up herself (back/ bottom ) as she used to be. She is walking a lot more and with stable steps. We are so peace with the results.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 23, 2015 5:14:01 GMT -7
Just look at Abby! Nerves can take such a long time to heal but as Abby shows here, heal they can! Keep up the great work and thanks so much for sharing this encouraging video with us.
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Aug 4, 2015 21:50:18 GMT -7
Hi All,
Update: Last week Abby went for the 7th therapy, doctor said she progress so quickly, therefore, Abby does not need the Walkin - Wheels, also she does not need to wear the toes up boots. I took Abby to the dog park today, she is able to walk for a longer distance without falling.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 5, 2015 9:02:27 GMT -7
Carrie, it is wonderful to see the progress Abby is making!! One suggestion since you know she has disc problems is to only use a harness to attach a leash to. A collar from this point on would only be a necklace to hold tags.
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Aug 5, 2015 10:21:34 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
Thank you very much for the advise, I tried not to pull her hard on her neck but never thought the harness can resolve the problem. I will get her a harness even I just bought her the new collar.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,606
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 5, 2015 13:08:27 GMT -7
Carrie every gal LOVES a new collar necklace!
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Dec 27, 2015 18:04:58 GMT -7
Hi all,
Abby is so proud to be chosen on the 2016 calendar cover, we already ordered the calendar .Thank you! the special harness on Abby is the best $105, I can use it to lift her to help her in and out the house pee pee. Also, when you use a leash to go around the back handle, it is like a lift to help her walk without falling.
Update: Abby 6 months after treatment , she can turn her head and reach her tail, also flip 360 degree on ground. She can walk slowly and just fall a little, if she try to move fast, she will fall and drag the back legs. She has control with pee as usual but poop. Her condition is stable.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Dec 28, 2015 7:54:44 GMT -7
Wow, she's getting around very well, Carrie! Thanks so much for sharing the encouraging video.
The harness sounds great. You might want to consider putting a ramp over steps going in and out of the house so you don't have to lift her. But good job in helping her over the steps.
Keep up the good work and please keep us updated. Abby's progress and the care you've given her is an inspiration to others.
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Post by Carrie & Abby on Dec 28, 2015 21:54:23 GMT -7
Hi Marjorie,
Yes! I will put a ramp to make it easy on her and myself , thanks for the suggestion! Another good thing about the harness is I can hold on to her going slowly, she get excited when I let her out and end up falling and dragging the hind legs.
I will continue to post her update!
Thank you!
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