Darlene's Doozy 4/24 conservative

Welcome to Dodgerslist. My name is Paula what is yours?

Did the specialist give a diagnosis of disc disase, intervertebral disc disease?

The reason Doozy would not be a candidate for surgery is that most surgeons will not operate when the symptoms are mild such as with Doozy.

The reason that 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks is an absolute necessity is to keep the symtoms mild and avoid surgery.  So  that will mean …. no laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc.

The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe from other pets and kids from bothering them. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document:
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm

The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal… only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen…there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement of the wobbly legs may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest… as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal.

We can best help if you can give us some specifics:
--What breed is your dog and did you specifically get a diagnosis of IVDD, aka:  a disc problem, a disc herniation, a bulging disc, slipped disc?

--Was the vet a specialist neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS)?

-- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy?

-- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and frequencies? Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory.

-- Eating and drinking OK?

-- Poops OK - normal color, firmness,  no dark or bright red blood?

Darlene, what breed is Doozy?

A recovery suite can be a number of things… a baby crib, a packNplay, a wire crate, an ex-pen, a pet stroller (to keep him by your side when you are there to supervise)

Water therapy during the 8 weeks of 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times would defeat the purpose of keeping the spine with limited movement.

Yes, muscle atrophy will happen. So the choice is to protect the delicate spinal cord or to keep  muscles bulked up with lots of movement.  Muscles will come back quickly once safe activity can take place after 8 weeks of crate rest.  The spinal cord if sufficiently damaged may never come back resulting in permanent leg pararalsis and no bladder control.  

Did the the ortho specialist, Dr. Greenwood, specifically say Doozy has a disc episode, slipped disc, disc disease, intervertebral disc disease?  Typically there is a great deal of pain with a disc episode resulting in the signs of an arched back, tight tummy, yelping, slower to move because it hurts to move, yelping.

Until you get a different diagnosis, you do need to assume this IS a disc problem and do what you can to protect the spinal cord.

Print out as much as you can from our Core readings to go over at home.  It makes a  great deal of difference being self educated.. Knowledge is the best defense in fighting and winning with this disease.  Our core readings are here:  www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm

Is is possible to go for a 2nd opinion to confirm if this is a disc episode or another matter with a board certified NEURO specialist (ACVIM)?

Pumpkin is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. The amount of water in the diet makes all the difference. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with a teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. To firm up the stool add 1 teaspoon pumpkin to kibble and no extra water 1x a day. Note alternatives: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potoato.

Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best as a calmer to take the edge off and allow Doozy to relax in his crate.  It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives.

Farnum's Comfort Zone with D.A.P. www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html [pheromone diffuser] with one oral calmer from below:

Oral calmers:
1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health
2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php [Composure]
3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com

Darlene, you got the post in the perfect spot on the forum!

Moving slowly IS likely pain. You really need the care from a vet who understands conservative treatment.

That means the vet knows
1. 100% STRICT crate rest to prevent the nerve damage from increasing.
2. If there is pain and there likely is with a disc episode, it is not just morally right to provide comfort from pain with pain meds but pain will will deter the healing process.

So you are there with Doozy, you know his normal demeanor best. You need to determine if he is not his normal bright perky self because his is in pain, if moving slowly, gingerly because it hurts to move. If you think he is in pain, then hire a vet who is willing to work to support Doozy during this disc episode. You will know which vet to hire, when you have some education under your belt. This information will help you to organize your hiring approach: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm

For right now you are doing the very best thing for Doozy by implementing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks. Good job! Do you have his water and food bowls attached inside the crate. A homemade bowl attachment idea plus many more helpful tips to make the next 8 weeks go smoother are here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm

Many members are using a memory foam pill with good success. I do not know what an orthopedic pillow is. The concept is to provide a surface that will help to prevent pressure sores of lying around for 8 weeks. Memory foam or egg crate foam is good. The orthopedic pillow may also be good.

Last August, the specialist said there was leakage in Doozy's disc... only short walks were recommended. He has never exhibited signs of pain ...only slowness in getting up and wobbliness. The regular vet did not recommend the specialist; but I'd asked for a referral just to confirm. When I wrote his condition had worsened, it was because he'd actually dragged his right leg a bit. But he still wants to jump and run as he barks and wags. When I open his crate door, I have to be very careful he doesn't go charging around. Thank you for telling me it's okay he sleeps in a ball. I sleep on the floor next to him; he's more content when he's close and can see me. His brother (outside the crate) sleeps nose to nose with him. Very sweet.

Since he's had the condition almost a year, I'm fearful he won't get all better. Have you seen a full recovery after a year of intermittent wobbling of hind legs? I could kick myself for ever letting him use stairs....never again, I know.

Sent to the Forum on behalf of Darlene, May 2, 2013

I am sorry I do not know how to make a bookmark, and though I'm in a  computer lab there's no one to help me. So here goes with a few more  questions I hope you (or Sherry...I've lost touch with her, but she'd
helped me, too)will answer for me. I've read the literature, but maybe  have missed some readings.
Any suggestions on how to keep Doozy from  jumping up on his hind legs in crate when I enter the room? Seems to be  counter-productive as he does not jump up except when in his crate.
Do dogs once "recovered" ever get to run off leash again on flat areas?  I'm thinking Doozy should never run...even inside (when he hears  something and wants to dart to the windows) since when running he could
re-injure? Since each dog and severity of IVDD are different, and  since he's losing his ability to walk from crating, how will I know 8  weeks of crating is enough? Do most dogs lose their ability to eliminate on their own during the 8 weeks of crating?
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Sent to the Forum on behalf of Darlene, Apr 30, 2013:

Am I to expect Doozy will lose his ability to walk and eliminate on his own as the 8 weeks of crating progresses? It's getting more difficult at times for him to stand. I am digesting all the information, as you so kindly suggested...
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Doozy is excitable when I've been gone awhile; he's thrilled to be out  of his crate. But he can be very melancholy since he's not used to being crated. Yes, I am extremely careful with any and all movement now.  I  thought since he's alone in the crate all day, it would be good to have  him near at night, but I get what you're saying. I just keep pondering  (okay, worrying) that because he wasn't crated immediately last summer,  there's been untold damage...Maybe the nerve damage has interrupted pain signals?  But your words have really encouraged me to keep at this  strict crating/potty only breaks. And I wish one of the 2 vets we saw  would have said something like "To play it safe, crate!" I'm going to  stay upbeat and positive and be grateful he's where he is and that we've found dodgerslist. Thank you, Sherry, for all your help!

Darlene, you still have not made it clear whether this is a new disc episode that happened around April 24. Did you go to a vet around April 24? what did the vet diagnose? What date did you actually go to the vet in April? Without use of dates it is confusing for us. Please limit your explanation to only a current disc problem rather that what happened this last summer so we can zero in on the current situation.

IF this is a new current disc episode then crate rest is what lets the newly damaged disc heal. It takes 8 weeks of limited movement for the disc to be able to heal. When a disc is not allowed to heal with STRICT rest, that can lead to spinal cord damage. Loss of leg use, loss of bladder control. So the point of crate rest is to allow the disc to heal with limited movement of the back.

Are you now seeing that Doozy leaks in his bedding or leaks on you when lifted...that would be a sign he has lost bladder control?

With a disc problem there is pain... observable with slow to move, reluctant to move very much, shivering, yelping or a tight tense tummy. Does Doozy show any of these signs of pain?

Nerve damage might repair itself during crate rest, but often takes longer... think in terms of several months or longer even a year out. Nerves are very slow to heal.

After 8 weeks of crate rest is over and the disc has healed, then you slowly re-introduce Doozy back to physical activity such as working your way up to 1 mile walks, letting him run but not in a zig zag way nor abrupt stops. Running and walking are good activities to strengthen the core muscles which support the spine.

The supplies list explains how to lower the roof of the crate to prevent standing up on hind legs: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm

Hi Darlene,

Yes Sherry understood your question, quite well, I thought. She has been through all this with her dog and was a moderator for Dodgerslist early on.  She is very experienced in IVDD.   She was Paula Milner's mentor and she trained her well as Paula really knows all things IVDD.  

The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal.  Only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen, there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement of  the wobbly legs may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest, as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal, some dogs take many months to heal.

I know of one in particular that walked after 9 to 11 months. Goosie was paralyzed and even using a wheelchair and one day surprised Lisa by walking.  Goosie belongs to Natureluva Lisa), one of our moderators.   Read his story. www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory/goosieSullivan.htm.

It might help to read some of our success stories to get a better idea of the the varied healing times of some of our members. Some indeed take months, nerves can take a long time to heal.   My Tyler is at the top of the list, since I just wrote his story recently. There are many, many wonderful stories.   www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htm