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Post by Shannon & Beans on Sept 7, 2014 19:54:50 GMT -7
Hello,
My Dachshund Beans, 19 pounds, was paralyzed in the late hours of 9/6 or early hours of 9/7. We got her to the ER this morning and she was diagnosed with IVDD and at that time they SAID she had deep and superficial pain. But after a lot of drama (none of which is pertinent) she was brought into another ER at 3:30 this afternoon and they said no pain sensation. They called the neurosurgeon but he will not be able to do surgery until tomorrow morning at 7:30. Beans was put on high dose solumedrol and a Fentanyl drip at the request of the neurosurgeon and her pain is well controlled.
My question is this...she is well past the "golden hour" for surgery after loss of deep pain. Does anyone have a nice, happy, comforting story to tell about how their dog came out of surgery just fine even though they had gone without deep pain for quite some time? She's going to surgery either way but I just need a little hope for a recovery that includes walking again.
Thank you in advance for anyone who takes a few minutes to offer any encouragement. And if you happen to be the praying kind...please say a prayer for Beans tonight.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 7, 2014 20:26:43 GMT -7
Oh gosh Shannon, now Beans! After a dog is paralyzed, the existence of deep pain sensation is an indicator that surgery could STILL be successful. That window of time is 12-24 hours from losing deep pain sensation (DPS). Even after that window of time, surgery is often successful. The spinal cord is very fragile, the more hours after the window, the less chance of a complete recovery. You will want to enhance your knowledge of surgery and the usual questions we all have had. This link www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm is primo reading and includes a very pertinent link to Dr. Isaacs answers about surgery: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgery.htmDid the paralysis come after trying conservative treatment or did it just happen fast? |
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Post by Shannon & Beans on Sept 7, 2014 20:30:23 GMT -7
Paralysis was the first thing we saw. We are just hoping for the best for her. She's young and because I work at a holistic veteirnarian, the doctor at my clinic is willing to provide free acupuncture to her once her neurosurgeon says it is OK after surgery so maybe it will help. I just don't know.
But I can say that I'm very tired now...too many dogs with IVDD. Too much pain and uncertainty in my house. That's kind of why I was looking for just a good, happy story. You know, you do everything you can - keep them from jumping, keep them lean and muscular, keep them on good nutrition and they still go down. So sad. I will read the link you provided and thank you for your time. |
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Post by Pauliana on Sept 7, 2014 20:35:47 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Shannon! We are really glad you have joined us. I can tell you one of the most important things you can do for your dog is self education about the disease your dog was born with. Knowledge is to make sure the right things are being done for best recovery. And for yourself, knowledge lets you step out of a very scary place…"the unknown" and the toll it can take on emotions. That window of time is 12-24 hours from losing deep pain sensation (DPS). Even after that window of time, surgery is often successful. The spinal cord is very fragile, the more hours after the window, the less chance of a complete recovery. Surgery on the spinal cord takes a well-trained surgeon for this most delicate and tricky of surgeries. Board-certified neuro (ACVIM) and ortho (ACVS) surgical specialists can be found at university vet teaching hospitals and in private hospitals. We will keep Beans in our thoughts and prayers.. and will be anxiously awaiting word from you on how he is doing afterwards.. Here is a link to our success stories on both surgery and conservative treatment with our Dodgerslist member dogs: www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htmIn order get a better idea where your dog is post-op,when the time comes, could you please answer these questions? Many of the questions below can be answered when Beans comes home after surgery.. ▷The date of the surgery will be 9/8? Let us know after Beans comes home that you are you doing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty and for surgeon directed PT? …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No chiro (aka VOM)? What did your surgeon direct for PT and for crate rest? ▷ Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? ▷ How much does your dog weigh? Please list the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mg's and times per day given? What was the start dose if a steroid, date of taper? Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory. ▷ Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? ▷ Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? ▷ Eating and drinking OK? Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? ▷ If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. Get ready to fight this disease with this current episode and in the future by knowing how you can help now and after crate rest is over. There is no better place to start than on our main web page covering "All Things IVDD" at this link www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm So the whole family knows what things are emergencies tape this flyer to your fridge : www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdf This is a comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD to add to your arsenal of educational resources. Friends, family and those who will be caring for your dog should also watch this DVD www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htm Sending you comforting thoughts and my Tyler sends you a snuggle.. He had surgery and recovered walking in 2013. This is a lifetime disease but it can be managed and they can still lead a happy life! www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htm |
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member 
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335 
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Post by StevieLuv on Sept 8, 2014 8:12:13 GMT -7
Hi Shannon, my name is Maureen. My Stevie never had surgery, just wanted to offer some encouragement. The golden hour is the ideal, not the must do, and dogs do recover. I will be keeping Beans in though and prayer today. Please keep us posted!!
ps The thread Amanda`s Zico is about a little guy that had conservative treatment first and then sudden worsening neurological signs Aug 15 (paralysis followed by a brief improvement and then paralysis again) had surgery on Aug 20 - he is walking again  |
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Post by Shannon & Beans on Sept 9, 2014 11:40:56 GMT -7
Beans is home from surgery on Prednisone BID for now then tapering starting in 5 days. She uses Famotidine 10 mg as stomach protectant. We had surgery 9/8 and recovery overnight in the ICU.
She is on 50 mg Tramadol TID for now as well and does not appear painful. We are icing and doing passive range of motion. She has no deep pain at this time and therefore also has no proprioception, bladder control, superficial pain etc since all of that comes after deep pain.
We will start electro-acupuncture on 9/11. She won't eat or drink right now and isn't drinking but she was just removed from IV fluids a couple hours ago. Crate rest is 4 weeks.
The surgeon doesn't have a lot of hope for her to walk. It's sad here at my house and I'm tired already.
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Sept 9, 2014 12:44:03 GMT -7
Oh Shannon, don't give up on Beans, it's early in the game. Are those the only three medications you are giving Beans? And what are the dosages per day, like Tramadol 50 mg, every 8 hours? All I can give you right now is hope! Please keep us posted in the days to come about her progress. Dodgerslist and our team of specialist recommends 6 full weeks of crate rest after surgery, not 4. Please remember this as Beans is recovering: Nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal. Nerves can take weeks, months or even a year+ to regrow and return function. Surgery immediately removes the offensive disc material and stops the pressure on the spinal cord. Immediate neuro improvement may or may not come during the 6 weeks of post-op rest… as nerves may take more than 6 weeks to heal… in fact there is no time limit for nerves to heal. There may be temporary neuro setbacks caused by the swelling the surgical procedure itself causes. Surgical swelling likely will subside in two weeks so that the true direction of nerve healing can better be seen. Dr. Isaacs, DVM, ACVIM (Neurology) addresses Dodgerslist members' questions on surgery www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgery.htmThere is good expectation for each IVDD dog. Many do regain the ability to walk. The most important recovery is for the dog to be pain free allowing him to resume a good quality of life… happy and pain free. There is always the possibility for return of leg and bladder control with time and patience. In the meantime, dogs do not consider themselves handicapped, they adjust and move forward with life, a good quality of life… enjoying life the same happy, loving way as always. Dogs have taken up to 5-6 months to regain deep pain sensation, and other cases that have taken longer for the return of neuro functions. Shannon, let me tell you about my precious Rooter. Rooter has had two back surgeries. The first was a great success and he walked to me when picking him up after being totally paralyzed. The second surgery however was not. He was paralyzed when I took him to the surgeon, however I was told he had deep pain sensation and the surgeon would wait until the morning to do the surgery. I was told he would be checked during the night and if anything changed they would call the surgeon in. Around 10 the next morning the surgeon called me and said he would do the CT Scan after lunch and if a problem was found then he would do the surgery as Rooter was already asleep. He called around 1:15 and said the surgery was over and it was a great success, but when I picked him up three days later I was told he was not progressing like normal and had no bladder function. It was a long, rough road before Root's ever walked again. I'm talking months to regain bladder control and months and months after that before he took the first step. So don't ever give up hope on those little individuals, they are so much stronger than everyone gives them credit. Take Care, Deb |
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Post by Debbie Blackwelder on Sept 9, 2014 16:37:58 GMT -7
Shannon I just found this great article by: Dr. Jared Galle, DVM Diplomate ACVIM (Neurology), Dogwood Veterinary Referral Center. His primary interests include intervertebral disc disease, spinal trauma, wobbler syndrome, inflammatory brain disease, and developmental brain abnormalities (hydrocephalus and Chiari malformation). Regaining deep pain sensation Monday, January 23, 2011 Ann writes: Our Buster recently went to the neurologist for his follow up visit 6 weeks after surgery for 2 herniated disks. The Dr. said he had no DPP and we should get him a cart as Buster would never walk again. She didn't seem to give any value to the improvement Buster has achieved since he came home. He's gone from total paralysis of his hind legs to being able to move both legs, his tail also moves and he pulls himself up to stand on all 4 legs for short periods.
The 2 Drs. at our local vet clinic were surprised by the diagnosis. They weren't eager to contradict the neurologist or to get our hopes up, but they say it can take months to recover from major surgery.
Because Buster is improving, we are continuing PT, water therapy and acupuncture. We did get Buster a cart which we were told was for rehab as well as mobility. We're trying to be realistic about our dog's progress, but the conflict between what we've been told and what we see happening with him is confusing.
In your experience, do you find that most dogs with no DPP 6 weeks after surgery never walk again?
Hi Ann. So sorry to hear about Buster. In my experience, dogs that do not regain deep pain perception (sensation) after 6 weeks rarely regain it. Notice, I didn't say never! These dogs often times will regain motor function and appear to "walk" once they get their legs under them. When this occurs we call it SPINAL WALKING. The "walking" is actually reflexes in the rear limbs being stimulated, which gives the appearance that the dog is walking. These are involuntary movements and do not require the input from the brain to occur. If you watch carefully, the front legs and back legs are not in sync with each other. We do see paralyzed dachshunds that never regain deep pain perception but spinal walk several weeks or months after surgery. These dogs live a great life! My advice… continue the physical therapy and water therapy. It sounds like Buster is regaining motor function in his rear legs and may be starting to spinal walk. He may surprise everyone and spinal "walk." There is a video on Dodgerslist showing spinal walking. Be sure to check it out. Best regards and thanks for the question. www.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/regainingDPS.htm |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 9, 2014 17:47:22 GMT -7
You know what Shannon, it is a very good thing the dogs never get these downer messages about walking. Cause their little bodies just keep in trucking self repairing all that can be repaired. It is WAY to early to make any remarks about walking.
-- Beans needs to get all the post op swelling down. That swelling can cause temporary neuro setback. In two weeks post op you will have a better idea of the direction of nerve healing
-- Unless the surgeon saw that the spinal cord had been completely severed it would be hard to go with his kinda of hope that Beans would not walk again. Science says it appears that only 10% of descending nerve axons are required for successful locomotion. So how much of those descending nerves were damaged.... can enough re-generate to get to the 10%? Who knows the answer to that question... is only mother nature and Bean's body. Think in terms of nerve growing and neuro functions returning in months even close to a year rather than days/weeks.
-- Being out of pain and getting back to fully enjoying family life after crate rest while waiting on more nerve repair is the goal. When and if walking comes will be icing on an already good cake. Beans will be the same wonderful and loving girl no matter when she walks. The glass is half full, not half empty!
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Post by Shannon & Beans on Sept 10, 2014 7:17:21 GMT -7
Beans is still unwilling to eat but is drinking. I am going to head for the store and get some roasted chicken to see if I can entice her to eat that. She's a good girl but she is terrified all the time right now and picking her up is virtually impossible as she panics and starts to struggle terribly. The girls at the surgeons office were kind enough to cut her nails down during surgery and I am all scratched up from her struggling to get out of my arms when I pick her up to go outside and potty. Worse than that, she rarely rests for more than an hour before she pops up and begins her hyper-vigilant behavior. She has always been a nervous dog and being unable to move has amplified that 10 times. Every noise, every motion, every light, EVERYTHING is a source of terror for her. How do you help something like that?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 10, 2014 13:20:55 GMT -7
Shannon, sounds like Beans really needs something to help her relax. For right now put on a beefy long sleeve sweatshirt or a coat to protect your arms. Are you picking her up so she feels secure, back horizontal to the ground and supporting both ends? Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below:Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Bach's Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation bachflowerpets.com/rescue-remedy-pets/ |
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Post by Shannon & Beans on Sept 10, 2014 15:40:30 GMT -7
I do always pick her up securely.
Inever thought about it but that pheromone diffuser worked wonders when I first got her 4 years ago and she was so upset all the time. She used to put her little nose right up against it and just suck the air in. It is definitely worth a try now as well. I stay away from anything that affects her neurologically (Rx or not) because she is epileptic. The diffuser should be great though. Thanks!
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Post by Shannon & Beans on Aug 19, 2022 9:46:58 GMT -7
[Original subject line: Long term post-surgical complications ]
Beans is a 12 year old Dachshund, diagnosed with grade 5 disc disease at 2. She had surgery and thankfully regained some wobbly use of her legs but
in the past 6 months has developed severe hyperreflexia (she will often stand in the yard and just bounce gently up and down). We treat her with gabapentin, which helps to calm the issue. I am only putting this information out there in case other's have noticed some strange kicking or bouncing behavior long after surgery and recovery.
As always, we a thankful for the information in the forum and website!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 19, 2022 12:07:38 GMT -7
Shannon, thank you for sharing and letting us know Beans has wobbly abilities with her legs. Glad to hear gabapentin is able to help!
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Post by Shannon & Beans on Jul 10, 2023 8:12:42 GMT -7
My Beans is many years out of surgery now, and has developed increasing hyperreflexia.
In the past 2-3 days, clonus and spasticity have followed what used to just be hyperreflexia. No explanation can be found for her current problem other than the back issue from years ago. I saw one message in the neurologist corner that mentioned a dog 5 years out developing "leg jerks" which I take to mean hyperreflexia.
I would like to know if anyone else has had their long term graduate develop this type of problem and did they find a good way to deal with it. Gabapentin still helps to some degree but she is definitely going downhill from my last message. I am loathe to euthanize because she still has such incredible zest for life despite her struggles.
I do have a video of the behavior but cannot find a way to upload it so others can see what hyperreflexia/clonus/spasticity look like. If there is a way to link it, please let me know.
As always, grateful for the help of this forum!
Shannon and Beans
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 10, 2023 12:54:40 GMT -7
Shannon, about the clonus, an abnormal reflex response, that involves involuntary and rhythmic muscle contractions. It's typically a sign of an upper motor neuron lesion and commonly occurs alongside hyperreflexia, stiffness/spasticity and muscle weakness. Since gabapentin was helping to calm this issue, you might discuss with your vet about Lyrica® (pregabalin) which is a newer and stronger similar drug to gabapentin. The pregabalin has been seen Rx'd for Forum dogs during conservative treatment or post-op. Wonder if it have a stronger effect on clonus than gabapentin? A consult with a neuro (ACVIM) might also be a consideration to understand what all is available to help Beans. You need to first upload to a video service, then you use its URL to post on the Forum. SHARING A VIDEO 1) How to upload a video to YouTube using the mobile app. The " YouTube mobile app" from Apple or Google is a free multimedia and streaming app enabling its users to view videos and upload content. 1. Open the YouTube mobile app 2. Tap the plus icon in the bottom menu. 3. Tap Upload a video in the pop-up. 4. On the next screen, tap the video you want to upload. 5. Tap "Next" in the bottom right corner. Confirm you've chosen the right video. 6. Enter information like the title of the video, choose a privacy level "an unlisted video" for viewing only by those who know the URL. Tap "Next" in the top right corner. 7. Choose whether the video is made for kids or not and tap Upload Video at the bottom to finish the process. 2) How to upload a video to YouTube using a web browser: www.flexclip.com/learn/how-to-upload-a-video-to-youtube.html |
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