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Post by lemorin on Apr 6, 2013 8:31:22 GMT -7
I apologize for posting in this breed forum, I dont where else to turn. Zeus our 3 year old french bulldog played fetch this past wed afternoon and did something to his back. We brought him to the vet thursday and gave instant shot of steroids and he was still standing at this point, but very firm and stiff, slow walking. He has had no past of this happening. He was sent home with steroids Prednisone and muscle relaxer and told to go straight to emergency clinic if he lost his legs completely. That night he did fairly quickly, so we took him to the emergency room/neuro specialist. He still had some sensation of pain, therefor still had deep pain. They said, they can watch him overnight and specialist would be called in if he got suddenly worse with absolutely no sensation. We decided to take him home and bring him back for an appt. with specialist in the morning. Neurologist saw him and determined he had no deep pain left and that surgery would have a low chance of helping. We were shown how to express his bladder and do an catheter and told his stools would just come out. Current meds are: an antibiotic Cephalexin 500 mg 2 x daily, steroids still for two weeks Prednisone 5 mgs. 1.5 tabs for a five days twice daily, 1 tab twice daily for five days, and then 1/2 tab every other day for a 5 days. Pain med if he needs it, Tramadol every 8-12 hrs. Bethanechol 10mg, one tablet three times daily to possibly help with pee expression.
Is there any hope for him? Is this good quality of life, even if we get a diaper and wheelchair for him? Should we be getting a second opinion or is this pretty straight forward if he has no deep pain in hind end? We feel like we have no body to help us and no one to talk to. We live in Maine and there is only one neurologist, which is the one who saw him. Should he be on a higher dose of steroids to see if he gets any sensation back? Can we receive the olfactory stem cell treatment? Anything experimental he can try?
Additional info:
--He recieved a diagnosis of IVDD
-- 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 since thursday night
-- there is still shivering, trembling
-- no deep pain sensation and cant walk or stand or use his hind legs
-- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? - yes have to express to pee and no bowel control
-- Eating and drinking OK? - yes
-- Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood? yes
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 6, 2013 8:59:08 GMT -7
Lemorin, welcome to Dodgerlist, we are glad you and Zeus are here. My name is Paula what is yours? First thing to know is that it IS in the cards for Zeus to get back to enjoying family life after his period of recovery. The single most important part of his care will be the 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe from other pets and kids from bothering them. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal… only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen…there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest… as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal. It is entirely possible that deep pain sensation can come back. Nerves are slow healing and thus the need to have patience. He is being very lightly medicated for pain. How much does he weigh? Your vet has plenty of options left to get pain fully under control. Give Tramadol aggressively at every 8 hours promptly as it has a short half life of 1.7 hours. Most vet give methocarbamol to address the pain stemming from muscle spasms. And there is gabapentin to add in to the mix for hard to control pain. Pain control is not a one size fits all deal.... it is critical to work as a team with the vet in communicating the signs of pain your are seeing in order for the vet to know he must still make adjustments to the pain prescriptions. Cortisteroids (Prednisone, Prednisolone, Dexamethasone, etc.) are involved with stimulating gastric acid secretion causing GI upset to the more life threatening bleeding ulcers or holes in the stomach or intestine. Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "is there any medical reason my dog may not to take Pepcid AC?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in protecting the stomach by giving doxies 5MG Pepcid AC (generic name is Famotidine) 30 mins prior to steroid. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory is in alpha order: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlWhile on Prednisone you will likely need to express every 2-3 hours to keep him dry. Let us know if he is staying dry. Great video and excellent tip to help you learn this new skill and how to express for poop too : www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmIn the early days of learning our dogs have IVDD, everyone needs a shoulder to lean on while getting things figured out, dealing with emotions, getting up to speed on meds, what disc disease is, etc. Your job in the coming days is to become a reader so you become the confident leader of Zeus' health care team.... to discuss confidently various issues from medications to recognizing if suggestions of activity would be harmful to the healing disc. All that takes being a reader. Our main website will give you start you with a very good overview and understanding you need right away…. as time permits continue to read all of the articles on the Disc Disease 101 core readings. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmGive Zeus a big hug and kiss and tell him mom is going to ensure his best recovery by reading, get a stomach protector on board today and his pain meds adjusted so he can heal in comfort. Let us know what the vet says and prescribes. |
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Post by lemorin on Apr 6, 2013 14:28:08 GMT -7
Hi Paula
Thank you for your prompt reply. I forgot to mention my name is Lee earlier. You have given us hope with the wealth of knowledge you have to share. We have decided to go ahead with the surgery despite the chances explained as low. The more I think of it I would consider the success as high if we get some nerve regeneration. Should we still follow the strict crate rest for 8 weeks plan after we get him back after surgery? The dr explained that if no sensations come back after 2 weeks then nothing probably will. I would rather take my chances and go the 8 weeks. He weighs 33 lbs to answer your question regarding the light on pain meds. The dr mentioned he didnt think he was in pain. Thank you for mentioning 5MG Pepcid AC we will surely ask the dr after surgery if there is a medical reason why he cant take it. We also appreciate the video you had on expressing very helpful! Also appreciate the frequency you suggested for expressng while on prednisone we were going to go off of the dr's 2-3x day recommendation. We gave him a big kiss before the vet tech took him away today and we will continue to read. I am on pins and needles until we get the call on the results of surgery. Thank you so much
Lee
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 6, 2013 15:21:00 GMT -7
Lee, let us know when he is out of surgery. The surgeon would be able to then comment on the condition of the spinal cord as he saw it during the procedure. The two weeks the surgeon talked about is the two weeks it usually takes for the temporary setback of the surgical swelling to subside. Then you would have a better idea of the direction of healing. We have had dogs begin to have return of functions 6 mos even Lisa's Goosie took 11 months. So two weeks post op is not enough time. Nerves are very slow to regenerate, so we just have to have patience, I know, that is not easy! Most of the time it is it 6 weeks for post-op dogs. However, if the surgeon sees a need for more healing time for the disc and bone, then he could prescribe 8 weeks. I know your mind must be going a million miles a minute. Do take time to start a list of questions as they come to mind... that way none will go unanswered on discharge day. Here is a list to get you started: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/dischargequestions.htm and this link will answer many question you may have about surgery and post op: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgery.htm#dischargeBest wishes for a good surgery, we anxiously await your next report. |
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Post by lemorin on Apr 6, 2013 16:16:46 GMT -7
Thanks Paula you are a godsend we are printing out the questions to ask. It sounds so hopeless to hear surgery probably wont help and if after 2 weeks no improvement then probably never will when there is so much information to the contrary (thanks to you and your site) with the time it takes nerves to regenerate as you explained. Im not looking for 100% recovery for this to be successful if he gets some deep pain sensation back we will be extremely happy. We also located a few rehabilitation centers specializing in hydro/accupuncture and low light laser therapy. More updates to come should get the call tonight for the post surgery update!
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Apr 6, 2013 18:10:25 GMT -7
We had great results from the surgery. Improvement definitely went on well after the 2 week point. At two weeks, she still knuckled under when standing, and now she's walking pretty normally, with a little wobble. We stuck with the prescribed 6 week strict crate rest after surgery. It wasn't always easy, but worth it. Now that it's behind us it doesn't seem like it was such a long time. Good luck!
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Post by lemorin on Apr 6, 2013 18:46:32 GMT -7
Thanks Pollysmom- may I ask what Polly's level of severity before the surgery? Did she have any paralysis and could she feel pain? Lastly, how quickly did you have the surgery done? I'm super nervous because Zeus was at the level 5 for almost 30 hours and hoping its not too late for regenerating nerves.
Thank you!
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Post by lemorin on Apr 6, 2013 19:59:08 GMT -7
Horrible update to share. The neurosurgeon just called and said that the disks look fine and that the spinal cord is swollen and that after testing the spinal fluid found high markers of infection. He said he has never seen this before and no idea how it can get like this. He is on iv antibiotics and will be monitored closely. I was told that it would be a miracle if he gets better and the dr fears it might travel to the lungs and other vital areas. Im sorry to bum anyone out now im really feeling lost. Has anyone ever heard of this? Any resources for this?
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Apr 6, 2013 20:15:05 GMT -7
Gosh, I'm sorry to hear this latest news. Are you saying that there is no disc rupture? That infection is the problem? I don't have any words of advice, I'm afraid. Keep us posted.
Polly had lost control of her back end completely, and was in severe pain. She did have deep pain response. They removed what the vet called a "tremendous amount" of disc material, and said the the spinal cord was bruised. We are grateful she has made a good recovery.
I'm hoping someone has some advice for you.
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Post by lemorin on Apr 6, 2013 20:21:33 GMT -7
Thank you- according to the dr there is no disk issue and was taken back by the high level of infection markers found in the spinal fluid. He said the whole spinal cord was swollen. I just pray that they get the infection under control and we have a chance to see him again. I really am happy for you that polly has made such a great recovery.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 7, 2013 9:36:33 GMT -7
Lee, I'm so sorry to hear of this new diagnosis. Did the neuro give the infection in the spinal cord a name, meningitis as that can be one of the diseases which mimic IVDD. There are several types of meningitis and not all are treated the same way.
I hope for the very best and that already there is some evidence the current treatment is working for your Zeus. I know how hard this must be on you.... sending you (warm hugs)
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Post by lemorin on Apr 7, 2013 11:40:40 GMT -7
Paula we are ready to just die i just called the dr and he said that he can be expressed easier and i thought that was encouraging and then he said because he thinks the spine is deteriating everything and the muscles are starting to get weaker. He doesnt think we have long before we lose him. He said eventually the front will be effected and then the organs. He said he is on the best possible antibiotics and that he is comfortable. I dont want to face my life without him im so depressed.
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Apr 7, 2013 11:51:07 GMT -7
I am so, so sorry. (((hugs)))
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pam
New Member
Posts: 21 
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Post by pam on Apr 7, 2013 11:57:51 GMT -7
My heart breaks for you! I will say a prayer for you and your doggie! <3
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 7, 2013 12:11:44 GMT -7
Lee, I don't want to scare you or add any emotional burden to what you are already dealing with. If the spinal cord is starting to die going upwards towards the head then this may be myelomalacia. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Myelomalacia.pdf Your surgeon can confirm if it is developing. I pray it is not myelomalacia. If it is you need to be aware and prepared to give a very hard but the kindest of parting gifts to release him from a bad ending. What happens basically is that the spinal cord starts to die from the point of the spinal cord trauma moves forward toward the head. It is very painful and it will eventually make Zeus unable to breathe. This disease can follow on the heals of any spinal cord injury. Myelomalacia generally progresses rather quickly in a matter of hours. Dogs with myelomalacia don't ever show signs of improvement, they just steadily progress downward. The cause of M or how it happens is still unknown and that is why research is going on at Purdue Univ. Myelomalacia can be easily confirmed by your DVM with the following: * about 3-4 days into recovery, they become painful. Within the first week, they are in a LOT of pain. * development of excruciating pain (more than just pain from the original disc herniation) • even the strongest pain meds do not help • hyper-esthesia (over-reaction to any touch sensation on body) * acute disc extrusion with no deep pain sensation * loss of anal tone, the anus hangs open, (anal flaccidity) and areflexia (below normal or no reflexes) * loss of cutaneous trunci reflex at a level more cranial to a previous evaluation over a period of hours to days with or w/o surgery * development of fever (normal rectal temperature is 100.5 to 102.5 degrees Fahrenheit) * sudden twitching or jerking of the neck and/or head * loss of voice, hoarse bark * can't hold body up, can't hold head up * increased respiration/ labored breathing ((hugs)) |
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Post by lemorin on Apr 7, 2013 14:49:47 GMT -7
Hi Paula- My wife and i just went to see zeus. He came in walking on front legs while vet tech had the sling for his hind legs. We were over joyed to see him and gave him a hundred kisses. I was expecting the worst but he was in the same condition when we left him yesterday afternoon. He didnt eat today but he ate his whole meal and water when we were there. It actually gave me hope for a brief moment that with the best antibiotics and steroids maybe it will somehow stop. They mentioned that they fear it is the Myelomalacia you mentioned or perhaps meningitis. They noticed it did start effecting his muscles. Its been 20 hours since he started the heavy antibiotics. Im praying and hoping god can grant us this one wish to save him. We are going to make him chicken and rice and see him again tomorrow to feed. We hope we wont receive any phone call tonight since no news is good news. There will be a call tomorrow that will be the scariest call ill ever wait for on if it traveled or stayed the same or got better. I kept saying to zeus to please keep fighting we will taker care of you - you have to beat this and come home. Read more: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/205/lees-zeus-meningitis-fr-bulldog?scrollTo=1189&page=1#ixzz2PohImGIR |
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Post by natureluva on Apr 7, 2013 15:51:05 GMT -7
Hi Lee, just chiming in here. If you think you need a second opinion on Zeus' diagnosis, you could always take him to Boston. From what I hear Angell Memorial Hospital has an excellent neuro staff. Here's the link: www.mspca.org/vet-services/angell-boston/neurology/ Best wishes, ~Lisa |
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Post by lemorin on Apr 7, 2013 16:25:12 GMT -7
Hi Lisa,
Thank you for helping if i can bring the hospital to him I would - I would just be so reluctant to take him away from the IV treatment he is currently receiving. Id be afraid that he might be missing out on the current care.
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Post by natureluva on Apr 7, 2013 16:56:22 GMT -7
Oh that is true, Lee. I guess in the event your neuro can't give a firm diagnosis, he/she could always consult with another neuro (hopefully Board Certified). I'm really praying and sending healing thoughts to Zeus. ~Lisa
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Post by Nancy & Polly on Apr 7, 2013 17:58:59 GMT -7
Good thoughts headed your way!
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 7, 2013 18:36:19 GMT -7
Praying for Zeus and for you, and family, Lee.
Hugs, Pauliana
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Post by lemorin on Apr 7, 2013 18:36:42 GMT -7
Thank you to all- I really appreciate it!
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Post by lemorin on Apr 7, 2013 18:44:03 GMT -7
Lisa - your right great idea to suggest the consult!
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Post by Cindy & Sophie on Apr 7, 2013 20:01:19 GMT -7
prayers coming your way...
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Post by piaffplease on Apr 8, 2013 12:25:14 GMT -7
Sending lots of prayers for you and Zeus!
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Post by lemorin on Apr 9, 2013 7:22:39 GMT -7
Thank you to all who have supported me and zeus. I am sad to say we had to say goodbye to him yesterday. We prepared his favorite meal and went to the hospital. They did not have him supported while he walked because the spinal damage moved further toward the brain. He could barely hold his head up. We knew he was in tremendous pain and the zeus we remembered was fading. We fed him and told him we loved him a hundred times and gave him many kisses. He eventually gave us a few kisses back. Ive never bonded with a pet before on this level I dont even feel like living anymore. I held him as the needle was placed and put him into a sleep. Next the heart was declared stopped and I had a few moments alone with him. I cried so much that I couldnt see from all the tears in my eyes. I told him as he lay there that I am so sorry and that I will be with again one day. It was the happiest 3 and a half years of our lives. Each morning he brought joy all he wanted to do was love and please us. He used to wait by the door for my car lights and greet me when I got home and we hung out until bedtime. I know time is supposed to heal this its just not right its not right at all for his life to be cut short like that. I cant look outside without seeing him play fetch I cant sleep without imagining his snoring. I cant sit on the couch without thinking he is laying next to us. I feel so alone and helpless and I couldnt give him the full life he deserved. Please tell me is God is taking care of him I cant face the reality he isnt here. Im so sorry for depressing anyone. He was taken from us at such an early age. He had knee surgery over the fall and we were looking forward to hikes and dog parks and now we just feel so empty with no purpose in ourselves. Weve already packed up anything that reminds us of him but the memories are too vivid to erase.
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Post by Cindy & Sophie on Apr 9, 2013 8:15:22 GMT -7
I am so sorry for you, I can't even imagine the pain you are feeling. But I am here to tell you that God is taking care of him, He loves the animals and welcomes them home to Him. I believe that with all my heart! Praying for you and sending you (((HUGS)))
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 9, 2013 9:40:04 GMT -7
Lee, I'm writing this with tears streaming down my cheeks. Last summer I lost my Lewis to Myelomalacia too and your beautiful memorial to him brought back the same exact emotions. First, you gave Zeus the kindest gift but the most difficult to give...that was to let him cross to the rainbow bridge while feeling the warmth of your loving arms. He knew without doubt your passionate love for him and the wonderful care you have given. Second, permit yourself time to grieve the loss of Zeus, your dear family member. You will never get used to him not being with you, over time you just learn to cope... your mind eventually dwells on the lovely times you shared, the times he made you laugh. Join a pet grief group for support: www.dailystrength.org/c/Pet-Bereavement/support-groupZeus did not leave you, he just changed worlds and now he forever remains in a safe and warm place... your loving heart and your memory... he is now watching over you. May he soon begin to help you laugh again as you are reminded of his antics and unique quirkiness! John Denver's poetry in song says when you feel most alone love will bring you home: Godspeed dear Zeus! Warmest of ((hugs)) to you and your family |
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Post by Linda Stowe on Apr 9, 2013 10:33:30 GMT -7
Lee, I'm so sorry to hear of your loss of Zeus. I too lost my Duncan (not IVDD related) unexpectedly a week ago so I know your pain. Paula's reply hit home to me too. I know it will get better and its going to hurt for awhile. I'm waiting for those wonderful memories we made together to start and I know they will. Take one day at a time.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 9, 2013 11:31:18 GMT -7
Lee, how sad I am for you about Zeus.. Memories will help you heal in the days to come and as the days pass, you will feel Zeus' love return to you, for love never dies..
PET HEAVEN
It's hard to lose a pet you love -
You miss him very much.
You'd like to hold him close again
And feel his furry touch.
But there's a place in heaven
For our special animal friends...
Day and night, there's angel light
and love that never ends.
God knows each dog and kitty cat,
And calls them by their names.
He fills up all their water bowls
And plays their favorite games.
The angels give them lots of hugs
And tickle all their tummies.
They teach them to do awesome tricks,
Then give them tasty yummies.
So may this furry angel friend
Remind you, 24/7
Your pet is happy, safe and sound,
In God's arms up in heaven.
J.S. Jackson
_________________________________
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