Marena's Ziggy 6/27 conservative IVDD?

Thank you for your imput and quick response Marjorie. I am glad you don't have great concerns with Ziggy. He shivers a lot first thing in the morning when I am putting on his harness for our first walk of the day. I was concerned about this but I noticed bc he is a rather 'hyper' type of dog there seemed to be a pattern of shiver/trembling when nervous and/or excited. He seems to do this in other words with feeling excited. He is an arched back dog tho, which concerns me. His shape is so different from Hansel, my first doxie. Hansel had that shorter firm straight as a pin body with short legs. Ziggy is skinnier, long back legs, much longer back that has that horse shaped hunch I call it. I have seen other similar shaped dachshunds appear the same way so I am not sure if this is bc of IVDD or not. As for stairs, furniture, that is so tough, how can one follow them all day? My chair, stool and sofa are pretty low to the ground. I have steps for the beds and he doesn't use the stairs too much during the day bc the upper part from the landing is blocked as are the basement steps. He sleeps nightly in his xpen so in the unfortunate event of an injury he could rest in there comfortably. I will look at the link you sent,(at work now so time limited). Thanks so much, Marena

Greetings, a long time but inactive member due to Hansel, my 1st doxie, only had a one time issue.  Leg dragging, shot of cortisone and 2 weeks rest and he was fine.  He passed Aug. 2011 at the age of 15.  I didn't remove myself from this list knowing I would have doxies in my life and in Sept. 2011 I rescued Ziggy, now 3 1/2.  He has the stamina of the energizer bunny and has been a shining light in my life since my loss.  He did however this week yelp and limp twice.  After resting him he was fine only to run, yelp and limp the second time.  I stopped his activity for the day.  Later that night I was palpitating his front left leg (the one he limped with) and his upper arm, neck, shoulder.  He was on his back as he did this and suddenly when I was palpitating his shoulder area he jumped, yelped and almost bit me so it appears so the source of the pain was from there.  That night I didn't sleep bc the internet said pain that originates in the shoulder is often bone cancer.  Of course I took him to the vet the following day.  Let me just give you some quick history of the 3 years with Ziggy.

Constant itching, no broken or red skin
occasionally doesn't want to eat, hides and looks disappointed.  He may eat later or not at all, usually lasts a day.  Sometimes the same day he will eat grass and vomit bile.  These occurences can go together or apart

occasionally trembles, I've noticed this first thing in the morning.  Doesn't last long.

Sometimes sprints and yelps after a bowel movement

Very occasionally a hunched back or urinates without the concave back, more of a straight back.

Ok, so all this to me sounds like the symptoms of IVDD, I brought this list to the vet and she wasn't convinced they were related.  She did a thorough examination, (and I mean manipulated every part of his body to check for pain/pressure) and didn't say it in these words but Ziggy basically has a boo boo and needs rest and baby aspirin.  I will be having xrays in a week.

The disappointing thing is my previous vet of Hansel's who was wonderful had retired and now Ziggy is getting to know two new vets, the first one he dealt with is on hiatus for the summer so this woman vet I have only met twice. The first vet did notice at one point some warmer areas along his spine that he said may give him some trouble in the future and to keep an eye on it. He said if his back bothers him he would require rest at that point. I know from having a doxie and being familiar with this site that IVDD is time essential to avoid surgery or paralysis. Will the xrays show something bc I understand they aren't full proof for diagnosing IVDD. He did have an xray a month or so ago for his abdomen as to the occasional nausea and lack of appetite.

So my questions are:  What does this sound like to you and why?
                                
                                Can a muscle strain, ligament, tendon masquerade as IVDD or are they connected     due to the injury?
                                 I tend to over react and get anxiety so please don't scare me with cancer, paralysis unless you really believe he is in trouble.  I already lost sleep and medicated myself at work the other day.  So is there anything else I can or should do?

                                 Currently he is doing great, no yelping, limping or pain since the day I touched his shoulder but I am restricting his activity.  He won't poop tho unless he takes a short walk to get stimulated.  He has snuck up the stairs.  Vet said aspirin and very limited activity.

Finally I can't seem to access this group other than the facebook link, my groups can't open up any forum.  My name is Marena Woodsit on FB if you can't communicate with me here.  This is how I got in, currently online with fb.

Hi Paula,

Thanks for the reply, it has been getting frustrating for me dealing with this as well as trying to find my own post (I guess a thread). I was looking under new posts to get feedback and couldn't find it there until I got to the threads part. Are you able to post my letter as I don't seem to know how at this point. In response to your reply which I very appreciate, I am not sure I quite understand the advice.....all the strict rest for 8 weeks etc.....do you mean now or until I get the xrays? The vet said for him to rest, no activity for the weekend and the baby aspirin offered here in Canada is a low dose 81 mg he is to take 2x/day, it is also buffered for the stomach. I have had Ziggy on an antacid from his last visit so he is currently taking a half antacid/day. I am currently using a LUPI harness, sort of black soft ropey type of material, very easy on/off but now the vet said I should get a different one. No problem to do that, which ones do you recommend?

Is there a reason he needs the nsaid over the aspirin if he is on an antacid? I am only going by what the vet has recommended at this point? Can cervical IVDD cause pain when chewing? Sometimes Ziggy only eats the soft food and lately has not finished his toast piece I give him (small bite).

Yes it is famotidine. Ziggy is about 15 lbs and he has exhibited some of the above mentioned signs.....yelping when picked up, shivering, lack of appetite at times, the odd yelp or sprint after a bowl movement. I haven't noticed anything unusual with head positions although he often walks with his nose to the ground when sniffing. Until the time comes for him to be given a steroid is there any danger in the aspirin with the antacid? I thought they were to go together offset tummy trouble. How about yogurt as well as a snack to coat the stomach and replace good bacteria? I don't want to bash this new vet but she didn't think the trembling and appetite loss were tied with this problem, undiagnosed so far. I may get a second opinion. His xray appointment isn't until July 8th.

He hasn't shown any pain since this began last week. Is that normal?

Aspirin is really not a good med for canines. There are far safer NSAIDs formulated for the enzymes dogs have. You really need to get with a good vet, one who understand IVDD.

Once on aspirin there is danger to the GI tract of change to a different canine formulated NSAID or to a steroid without a 4-7 day washout from one before the start of the other. It may also be there is no more swelling and no need of any meds, Maybe it is not a disc episode. The only what to tell about swelling in the spinal cord is to stop the aspirin...if no pain then he does not need to take it any longer. IF, if, If, iF,, this really is a disc episode, then the full 8 weeks of rest is to allow the disc to heal.

We do not recommend yogurt or any dairy product especially when on meds. Most dogs are lactose intolerant just the same as people are...so no milk, no yogurt, no cheese.

It is alway prudent to seek a second opinion. Ideas, approaches, etc on seeking an IVDD knowledgeable vet.

We like to keep all posts in Ziggy's thread.  so your post about relaxation was moved back here.  

Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best.  It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price.

Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider:
--Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html
--Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/

Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below:

Oral calmers:
1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health
2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine.
www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php
3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com

There are many things that could mimic a disc episode, from full and infected anal glands, arthritis, tumors, infection in the spine, fractured vertebrae. X-rays can be helpful in ruling out other potential causes of spinal cord damage, including tumors occurring in the bone, fractures, discospondylitis, and discospondylosis. Xrays would not proove a disc episode.

Generally with a mild disc episode it is the vet's hands on exam, knowing the kinds of diseases the breed is prone to, and how the dog presents at the appointment. The xray is used if the vet is suspicious that something else may be going on than a disc episode.

If you do stop the aspirin and there are no signs of pain, then at least you know if there were swelling in the spinal cord that is now gone. The diagnositic abilitiy of a good vet is important as you can see. Until you have a diagnosis that says this is not a disc episode, crating is to protect a suspicioned damaged disc.

Hi Marena, I'm Sabrina. Did your vet state what she currently thinks is the cause of Ziggy's symptoms?

Now that Ziggy is off of the aspirin, are you noticing any signs of pain, such as:
- shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy?

If you were going to seek a second vet option, here is a page with strategies for finding an IVDD knowledgeable vet:
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm

We are building up a list of vet recommendations on this forum - not sure if any are near to you:
dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-posting

))Hugs!((

Thanks Marjorie

I have had a look at the lit.  I am trying some/all these things except for the recliner which he still jumps on.  I will have to get something to block it.  I bought a orthopedic bed that I put next to the sofa as a step.  I also have a baby gate by the stairs but living alone I don't know how to hook it up.  I have no electric screwdriver.  My dad has one but he lives a few hours away.  At first I had it on the landing to block the second layer of stairs and Ziggy never snuck up.  Now that I have it at the bottom leaning he is pushing it open so I may have to get some brick or stone to block it until it can be installed properly.  Beds have steps and I have trained him to use them.  Problem was when he heard a noise like a dog barking that is when the training went out the door and he would fly off.  Blocking the stairs prevents this bc the beds are upstairs.

I have clicker trained him with behaviour issues.  I will look into it more with the lit.  I have your brochures too bc I was distributing them here.

The vet knowing how worried I was wasn't too concerned with the results.  As I suspected there was some narrowing in a few of the 'thoractic-lumbar' area and so I asked if this is confirmed IVDD and he felt not yet but could be a problem in the future if Ziggy gets overweight or jumps too much.  I asked about strict rest quoting your list recommendations and he felt at this point just short 10 min walks for now.  The xrays also showed some wearing of the kneecap which could become a luxating patella in the future where the knee cap gives out, at that point he would require surgery.  The offending front limb that caused him to yelp showed some beginning arthritis.  The neck he said was fine even though I made him yelp there when I touched it.  The vet said that could have been referred pain from the elbow or back.  His abdominals showed lots of gas, likley from the various foods I am feeding....(I am trying various grain free kibbles, canned and treats in addition to homemade food and raw veggies for snacks).  After all the experimenting with grain free the vet now has Ziggy trying the HIlls Gastro diet for two weeks which he already doesn't like.

As for meds:

I was given
famotidine
Metacam liquid to be given by syringe in his food 7.5 kg (approx 1/2 teaspoon if eyeballing it properly) once a day with food for a week, then reduce to a dose every other day.  Ziggy has not been given aspirin since Sunday or Monday morning I believe.

Also he was given a supplement called Sasha's Blend for joint.....wants 4 capsules/day ongoing in addition to the already prescribed Dasuquin joint supplement which I give about a 1/2 tablet once every other day or so.

Finally he has been taking an antacid a half tablet 5 mg no-name brand which does have the active ingredient famotidine.  The pepcid that was available had an extra ingredient for something else and was a stronger dose.

I would welcome your thoughts on this.  I am glad it isn't anything worse.

Marena

It is an anti-inflammatory and my understanding is for any residual inflammation/pain that still may be going on. I am not in a financial situation to at the moment to spend more on a specialist. I have already spent 1000.00 dollars in the last few weeks on this. The doctor didn't feel he needs anything further. Don't get me wrong I would cash in an rrsp if I felt right now I needed to go further. My mind is more at ease today. The yelp from the neck area he said was referred pain...from the back area quite likely or the elbow. He said should Ziggy get a flare up in the future metacam would be used again. I just talked with another doxie owner that has some for her doxie's arthritic flareups on occasion. My question is if there is narrowing of the disc, is that ivdd or disc wearing that may lead to an ivdd?

Marena, all anti-inflammatories such as NSAIDs like Metacam can cause a number of problems which owners need to monitor for and know when to alert their vets, when to immediately STOP Metacam.

Famotidine is does work suffiently for many dogs to reduce stomach acids that are caused by anti-inflammatories. When there is vomiting that is a big red flag to us. Can you call your vet asap to advise about the vomiting? Since this is the weekend, personally I would do as the FDA says and STOP metacam until you can get in contact with a vet on Monday. On Monday if the vomiting is still going on I would definately ask for an Rx for sucralfate. Sucralfate helps to put a bandaid of sorts over the damaged area of the GI tract plus the gel-like coating helps provide a good environment for healing to happen. You can read more about sucralfate as well as Metacam at this vet's webpage: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.html

Please do take a moment to read the very good information the FDA writes about NSAIDs, what signs to monitor, when to stop Metacam. www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm196295.htm

You may have noticed we moved your post back into Ziggy's thread "Marena's Ziggy 6/27 conservative IVDD? " This is so all of the conversation remains in one place rather than separate postings. You may like to bookmark this thread so you can always find where to post: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/1865/marenas-ziggy-27-conservative-ivdd

The only area of our expertise is disc disease. We simply do not know enough about other problems and if we would comment we might cause harm. So I hope you understand our predicament in commenting on anything else but how to give care during a disc episode. We really depend on a veterianian's expertise in diagnosing, that is something we can't do.

Xrays can be used only to rule out other problems/diseases that might mimic a disc episode. And xrays can be use to suspicion a current disc episode. Narrowings on an xray may be a problem disc in the past or maybe a problem now. So a vet is guessing/suspicioning if he sees a narrowing on the xrays. A narrowing plus where the dog hurts, the past history of the dog, and the breed may all help a vet to pretty much diagnose if a current disc episode.