Jessica & Jack
New Member
Jack has done conservative treatment for the past three years but considering surgery
Posts: 12 
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Post by Jessica & Jack on Jun 24, 2014 11:43:25 GMT -7
Jack, dachshund, doesn't seem to be improving and help would be appreciated. Even if it is feedback on things that others have tried. He is on cage rest but considering MRI and surgery.
6/24
Woke up this morning and Jack seems to be doing worse. Last night we tried swimming, which was recommended by the vet and he hated it. Then this morning his legs seemed to be dragging more when he went potty.
6/23
Jack currently has been down for over two weeks now. He keep progressing slower and slower. We don't want to give up on the conservative treatments but want to think about the future. I have seen so many stories such as this and want to make sure I am doing what I need to so I can care for him. Don't know if there is anything I wouldn't do for him. Last week we had a thunderstorm and Jack was in his cage crying in fear of the thunder. I did everything I knew to do. Giving him calming medicine, sitting with him, covering him up. None of these things worked. It was such a hard decision to make knowing that taking him out of his cage could disrupt his cage rest and cause more back problems. The struggles we face with knowing if we are making the right choices or not.
Jack is currently is his third episode with IVDD. The vet thinks that he has several disk that are ruptured and more in the future. Wants him to go for an MRI of his back to determine the damage…
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,585
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 24, 2014 12:09:39 GMT -7
Jessica, welcome to Dodgerslist. I am so very sorry Jack is having a disc episode. His vet does not know IVDD and has caused a great deal of damage with the prescription of swimming. You can be instrumental in Jack's recovery by doing what we all have done. We very quickly learn about this disease and the treatments so we can protect our dogs from those who are not comfortable with IVDD. Within the next couple of days or sooner please read all you can to get a good basic understanding of the disease. This page is really a good one to start with following all the links provided to become the savvy IVDD dog owner Jack needs you to be: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm I have made the start date of conservative treatment today. That swimming has caused the disc to further tear causing further damage to the spinal cord. It takes 8 weeks to heal the disc from the date of the tear. Can you tell us a bit more about Jack so we'll be better able to support you: -- Let us know you will be able to do the essential 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty …. No swimming, no laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). -- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? -- How much does your dog weigh? Would you give us a list of exact med names currently given, their doses in mg's and frequencies and the date they started? Anti-inflammatories can increase GI tract damage. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason my dog may not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours. This directory very good for learning about each of your dog's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm -- Eating and drinking OK? How are poops today- normal color and firmness, no dark or bright red blood? -- Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? Keep in mind for later the very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage will be necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment once off all pain meds and no more signs of pain The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk . www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm-- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? -- If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. Fundraising is an issue on the forum for several reasons. So many here have not been able to provide surgery due to the dog's health, personal finances or just the desire to try the least invasive treatment first. Because so many members are heavily burdened with unexpected vet bills themselves, it is not likely you will find people in a position to help you financially. What the forum has to offer is priceless and that is support, creditable IVDD information to help you care for your dog and to work closely with vets. I do feel your stress and anxiety to raise funds. So let me mention this alternative to posting about fundraising as outlined in our posting guidelines Signatures are limited to one line and may include a link dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/32/posting-guidelines-forumWe look forward to your answers to the questions above and learning more about Jack. |
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Jessica & Jack
New Member
Jack has done conservative treatment for the past three years but considering surgery
Posts: 12
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Post by Jessica & Jack on Jun 24, 2014 12:57:32 GMT -7
Ok thanks for all the information. Jack currently weighs 12.4 lbs he was 13.5 when he went down and has lost a pound since then. He can not stand of move his legs at all. He has some bladder control but whenever he is picked up or moved he will empty his bladder which is not like him at all. Never pees or anything when excited or nervous.
Our vet is fairly educated in IVDD and is certified in acupuncture. She is the one the recommended the swimming for physical therapy. We do DevCor Perna Pro and Vitamin supplements. He is on a steroid, Tramadol, and Valium. A little worried that all of these medications will cause kidney issues because of his need for long term use. The vet also stated that we could take him for the MRI but that cost $1000. Not sure what that would tell us or how that would help. I posted to the surgery link because at this point we are really considering the surgery option because he is continuously having issues.
I am in search of any feedback and help that I can get.
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Jessica & Jack
New Member
Jack has done conservative treatment for the past three years but considering surgery
Posts: 12
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Post by Jessica & Jack on Jun 24, 2014 13:00:09 GMT -7
Ok thanks for all the information. Jack currently weighs 12.4 lbs he was 13.5 when he went down and has lost a pound since then. He can not stand of move his legs at all. He has some bladder control but whenever he is picked up or moved he will empty his bladder which is not like him at all. Never pees or anything when excited or nervous.
Our vet is fairly educated in IVDD and is certified in acupuncture. She is the one the recommended the swimming for physical therapy. We do DevCor Perna Pro and Vitamin supplements. He is on a
steroid,
Tramadol
Valium.
A little worried that all of these medications will cause kidney issues because of his need for long term use. The vet also stated that we could take him for the MRI but that cost $1000. Not sure what that would tell us or how that would help. I posted to the surgery link because at this point we are really considering the surgery option because he is continuously having issues.
I am in search of any feedback and help that I can get.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,585
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 24, 2014 13:21:13 GMT -7
The vet who recommended swiming during a current disc episode does not know IVDD. The ONLY way the disc heals is with 100% STRICT crate rest. Swimming is ALOT of movement for the back. Each time the vertebrae move they push on discs. The swimming was the cause of Jack's disc being further damage to the point the disc pushed on the the spinal cord. Nerves do not like being pushed on...they die with pressure. We observe that death when we see bladder control is lost, leg function diminishes or is lost. Not one of us like to think our wonderful vets do not know all diseases. Most DVMs in a general practice see many different species- hampsters, cats, all breeds of dogs, reptiles, birds, maybe even farm animals. They practice many specialties in the course of a day: pediatrics, dentistry, surgery, internal medicine. Is it surprising, that keeping current and indepth knowledge of each and every disease for every species is probably not likely? However YOU can easily become a mini-expert on one very-important-to-you disease. I hope you will be serious in getting up to speed on IVDD at the soonest. As you can see we have very creditable board certified neuros writing articles for us, commenting on our web page. So you can't go wrong starting your education on this page: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmPlease give us the details on all the meds. The exact names, the dose in mgs and how often they are given. What date did the steroid start. Has there been a lesser dose since the beginning, a taper? Is all pain in control fullly? No shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy, not normal perky self? Please see about getting on a stomach protector today... 5 mg Pepcid AC (famotidine). This is Jack's thread. We like to keep all postings about Jack in one place so we don't miss any important information you write. So you may wish to bookmark it and ask for email alerts anytime someone posts on Jack's thread  BLADDER control. </font> It does not appear he has bladder control if he is leaking. The only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry outdoors, set on an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control still remains. Let us know what you observe. YOu may need to go today for a hands on top of your hand expressing lesson. Review first to get more out of the lesson if you determine bladder control is now gone. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmWAG tail Can you specifically do some happy talk to him, then will he wag his tail? VERY helpful page on considerations for surgery: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm |
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Jessica & Jack
New Member
Jack has done conservative treatment for the past three years but considering surgery
Posts: 12
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Post by Jessica & Jack on Jun 24, 2014 13:52:51 GMT -7
There is no wagging of tail really. He only has one more predisone left. He was only on them for about ten days. He is taking 50 mg of Tramadol. He eats. Really confused on the cage rest because I have been researching through other people and they encourage sitting with him and letting him sleep in bed because he has very bad anxiety. He is only to get the Valium if he is overly stressed and we were only given 3 pills so it is just on rare occasion. He will pee if you take him outside and he will poo as well. Not really going in his cage just if he is moved or messed with.
I struggle to tell if his pain is under control. It seems like it is being managed but with the anxiety it is very hard to tell.He is yelping and whining a lot through the day but I don't know how to tell if it is anxiety, pain, or both. He takes tramadol twice a day for pain and benadryl one pill twice a day to calm him a little
I have been looking all over and haven't found many people who's dog has went down more than once. Jack is only 5 years old and has went down three time. Looking for help and feedback with the issue. Not sure on whether I should do surgery and whether or not it would prevent further issues. All feedback welcome.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,585
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 24, 2014 14:22:16 GMT -7
OK we are getting close to understanding the medication list. How many days was he on prednisone before the taper started. How many mgs was the original Prednisone dose? Normally for a 12 pound dog the anti-inflammatory dose is 5mg 2x a day. 12.4 lbs 50 mg of Tramadol 2x/day Prednisone for ? days before taper started. one pill remains. Valium as needed (qty prescribed: 3 pills) benadryl ?mgs 2x day Did you tell the vet at once about the diminishment of the legs this morning. What did she say? The normal action when there is further loss of function is to be BACK on the original anti-inflammatory dose to get the swelling in the spinal cord down. Pain usually has more than one sign. Put on your detective hat to see if you are observing more than one sign of pain. Do you see he has tight tummy muscles, does he fear moving too much because it hurts.. meaning is he not moving much in the recovery suite--- not shifting sides, not turning around?
Does he yelp when you move him or he moves himself I'm wondering if you move him and he loose bladder control because it hurts? Could it be you are not taking him outside often enough that he leaks in his bed. When on pred you might have to take him out every 2-4 hours because of increased thirst. I can tell you for a 12 lbs dog 50 mgs of Tramadol 2x a day is not likely to control pain IF he has pain. Tramadol has a very short life and often will not control pain if not prescribed 3x a day. If you can't get Jack to wag his tail he may not have bladder control. Do you specifically see him sniff an old spot in the grass and then release urine. That is the proof of bladder control. As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions . When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle 5. Legs do not work (paralysis, dog is down) √ Jack6. Bladder control is lost Jack?7. Tail wagging with joy is lost Jack?8. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function. The ONLY way the disc heals is with limited movement of the back. Couches, bed can slope unexpectedly. Dog will jump off them. The best place to heal is in the recovery suite where the mattress supports the back, the mattress never slopes. So to give the gift of healing no sleeping with you, no laps, no couches. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. NOTE: for some dogs Valium, ACE, etc will give the opposite effect of wiring them up. It is better to have a slighted drugged dog than one who is doing too much moving around. Does valium work to calm Jack? Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com 4) Plain Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) with no additional medications added. |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,585
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 24, 2014 14:44:35 GMT -7
Jessica, as you start your readings you will come to the understanding that Jack's disease is a progressive one. Some dogs have only one disc episode their entire life, while others like my dogs have multiple episodes. My Clark had two episodes months apart at age 4, My Toshsa had one at age 1 and never another her long life, my Lewis had three episodes. You can read about other dogs on our success story page (NOTE: all dogs are success stories, they are IVDD survivors!) www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htmSurgery deals with one disc problem and possibly fenestration prevention in two adjacent discs. A dog has 26 discs could potentially have problems. I really recommend focusing on becoming educated via reading over at the Main Dodgerlist webpage. EAch dog is different so to ask about another dog will likely not give you the foundation in this disease you are yearning for. Here is our complete treasure trove of IVDD information, hope you will find absorbing all you can as quickly as you can will be a tremendous emotional support to you: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmDr. Isaacs, a board certified ACVIM neuro surgeon, gave answers to our most asked questions about surgery... I think you will find some good reading here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgery.htmThe fact is your vet is not really comfortatable with IVDD. You might also wish to check member recommendations for a nearby DVM vet. You may wish to have a consult with a neuro because you are not able to find a local general DVM vet who does know IVDD in your area. dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/402/vet-recommendations-compiled-surgery-conservative vet recommendations www.dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htm strategies for finding an IVDD vet |
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Jessica & Jack
New Member
Jack has done conservative treatment for the past three years but considering surgery
Posts: 12
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Post by Jessica & Jack on Jun 26, 2014 5:25:01 GMT -7
Just wondering is there anyway to see how many he will have. My vet discussed an MRI will that show future problems?
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 26, 2014 7:44:09 GMT -7
No, there is no way of knowing how many disc episodes an IVDD dog may have in his/her lifetime. As Paula said, some dogs only have one and others have several. There are many dogs that have had multiple disc episodes. An MRI will show what's going on right now but it can't tell you if a disc will harden and rupture or tear years from now. MRIs are not done lightly as the dog needs to be sedated, meaning the trunk muscles that support the vertebrae and defend against further disc damage are out of commission. MRIs are usually only done just prior to surgery so the surgeon knows which disc has been affected. With conservative care, it doesn't matter which disc has torn or ruptured as the treatment is the same - strict crate rest, anti-inflammatory to resolve the swelling and pain meds.
Please give us a complete list of all medication Jack is currently on, including dosage in mgs and frequency given. Please also let us know what the vet says when you speak to him today about Jack's pain and neuro function.
Healing prayers for Jack.
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Jessica & Jack
New Member
Jack has done conservative treatment for the past three years but considering surgery
Posts: 12
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Post by Jessica & Jack on Jun 26, 2014 9:42:02 GMT -7
As of right now he is no longer on
steroids. stopped
Tramodol 50mg twice a day. I give him
benadryl to reduce stress twice a day 100mg. He takes DevCor Perna Pro supplement once daily
I was hoping there was some way to see what was going on and give him some help for the future. It felt like it has been a lot for him to have three episodes in the past two years and am worried that this is going to continue happening through his entire life. I have not come across anyone who has continual problems with IVDD. Just wondering if there is anyone out there. It seems like every summer he has an episode almost to the date of his last one.
We are doing cage rest except for going potty. Before I did strict cage rest and would clean up after him when he used the bathroom in his cage but he seems a little happier if I take him out. I don't know how much it hurts him when he goes out though because all he wants to do is run and it is hard to keep him from doing that.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,585
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 26, 2014 10:46:56 GMT -7
If the disc episodes become too frequent such as months apart, or during a disc episode the pain even with the most aggressive of pain meds will not be brought under control, then it may be time to consider surgery. There is always a need to compare the risk of surgery vs. the non-invasive conservative treatment. EAch dog is individual, so you and your vet and a board certified neuro (ACVIM) vet will need to put heads together to see what is right for Jack.
Living with IVDD means we all are eagle eyed to spot signs of pain, crate at once, vet visit... all in an attempt to avoid surgery. Sometimes, though, surgery is the best treatment for an individual dog.
The ONLY way to have a clear picture on the state of swelling is to not only taper off of the steroid but to also stop the pain med, Tramadol. Why is he still on tramadol? IF there is any hint of pain, then with a clear picture you and the vet would know not all the swelling in the spinal cord is gone and the need for meds. IF there is no pain then of course no pain meds are needed.
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