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Post by Gordy & Jack on Jun 13, 2014 11:31:05 GMT -7
My neices dog is five, he is a white lab. Last Saturday he could not move..they took him to the Hospital and they said he had IVDD 3 and told them Jack would probaly never walk. The paralysis is his hind legs and no control of his bladder. The surgeon said to think about putting him down. They were devastated, they decided on Monday to take Jack to the OSU Vet Clinic, in Columbus. The surgeon said he thought it was IVDD 3 and said surgery might or might not work, and recommended against it. They took Jack to their local vet and he suggested laser therapy and steroids for 7 days. Not much has changed since Monday.
Question: As with spinal injuries with people, they never can give a finite answer if the spinal cord has not been severed, for at least a year, so my thought is more time is needed to see if there could be any positive changes. They have put Jack in a wheel chair. But, after reading this blog, should Jack be confined and not moved for a specific period. Their vet said it does not matter as the damage has been done.
It is horrible, as Jack is still the same but cannot walk. They have been hysterical over it. He is large so messing is a problem.
So, are there recommendations for best practices when it comes to messing? I would think diapers would only be ok if they were immediately changed.
They are also trying to get into a wholistic Vet for massage and other stimulation therapy. Thank you for any advice or other sitets that might help and be informative about how to provide the best care for paralysys in a dog.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 13, 2014 14:08:35 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. Is your name Gordy? What's your niece's dog's name? Please recommend that your niece come to our forum so we can help her and her dog through this. Nerves CAN heal though it can take time, sometimes weeks, months, even a year or more. No one should have told your niece that her dog probably would never walk again. If he has lost deep pain sensation, that may be why surgery was not recommended. There is a window of time when surgery can be effective once DPS is lost. That window of time is 12-24 hours from losing DPS. The spinal cord is very fragile, the more hours after the window, the less chance of a complete recovery. But conservative care is a treatment option. The dog should not be in a wheelchair. You are correct, confinement in a crate should immediately be done. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks is the SINGLE most important thing you can do to help your dog-- it is the hallmark component of conservative treatment. Carried in and out to potty. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmThink of the crate as a cast for the spine. The damaged disc can heal with limited movement. If there's too much movement, the disc can't heal. 8 weeks of limited movement is necessary to heal the disc and allow scar tissue to form. With a larger dog, it can be difficult to move him out to do potty. Possibly, if he will go on a pee pad, he can just be helped out of his crate and allowed to pee on a pad. Caster wheels can be added to the crate and he can be wheeled out down a ramp to his potty place. If there's a deck, dirt can be put out there for him to do potty. The idea is to limit his movement as much as possible. Please give this info to your niece: With this disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The unknown is simply a scary place. Get ready to fight this disease now and in the future by knowing all things IVDD. There is no better place to start than on our main web page with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmCan you give us a bit more in essential information about your niece's dog: 1. Please confirm with us the date that strict crate rest is started so we can add that to the subject line of this thread to help her keep track of the full 8 weeks. 2. Is there still currently pain? Signs of pain are holding the head in an unusual position, head held high or nose to the ground, shivering/trembling, not wanting to move much or moving gingerly, yelping, tight/tense stomach muscles, arched back, holding leg up flamingo style, not wanting to bear weight on the leg, just not their usual perky-interested-in-life self. 3. What are the exact names, dose in mgs and frequency of all meds? How much does your dog weigh? 4. Pepcid AC should be given to protect your dog from the excess acid produced by the anti-inflammatory. Please get your vet's permission to give 5 mg of Pepcid AC (generic is famotidine) 30 minutes before the dose of the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours). Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" If your vet says your dog has no health issues such as liver, heart, etc to keep her from taking Pepcid AC, then do get it on board. 5. Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? 6. How is your niece doing with expressing the bladder? How often does she express? Does she find wet bedding or is the dog leaking when picked up or moved? Frequent expressing of the bladder is necessary for bladder health. If the bladder is not expressed and overflows (leaks), the bladder can stretch out of shape and can be permanently damaged. Also any urine left in the bladder too long can lead to bladder infections. Your niece should ask the vet for a hands on her hands demonstration on how to express if she hasn't had one yet. 7. Eating and drinking OK? 8. Poops OK - normal color, firmness, no dark or bright red blood? The very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment once off all meds and there is no pain. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk but only after all meds are stopped and there is no pain. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmLaser light therapy, acupuncture and electroacupuncture which sends a microcurrent of electricity to and from acupuncture points (which are really big nerve bundles), can be very beneficial at helping to re-establish the nerve connections in the body. Any one of these therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration. NOTE: Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. Tell your niece not to despair. IVDD is not a death sentence. Many dogs regain use of their legs and even if they don't, their lives can be happy ones. www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmI hope your niece will join us here on the forum so we can offer support to her directly. Healing prayers for her dog.
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Post by Gordy & Jack on Jun 13, 2014 21:18:53 GMT -7
Thank you so much for your time in responding, Jack is the dogs name and Jessica and Andy are his parents I am going to send this to them, as I agree with you, there should not be anymore movement with his spine, only rest and only going in and outside to potty and being carried..
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Post by Jessica's Jack on Jun 14, 2014 9:29:43 GMT -7
This is gordymeka's niece. Our dog Jack is a five year old yellow lab who recently became paralyze. We had a normal saturday last weekend of taking Jack to the local dog park where he enjoys swimming and playing with the other dogs. We brought Jack home everything was fine, but noticed later that evening he didn't want to eat his dinner. We then knew something was not right, because Jack is an alarm clock when its time to eat. My husband went to rub his back, and instantly Jack yelped. We decided to take Jack to the area animal hospital. They couldn't find anything wrong, so they sent him home with some pain meds and said to come back in 3 days if he was not any better. At 2 am Jack started to cry at the bottom of the stairs to let us know something was wrong. My husband let him out to go to the bathroom and as he came back into the house his back legs began to drag on the floor. We took him back to the hospital and they did an MRI and determined he had a spinal injury. The said Jack had IVDD level 3 and would never walk again. Our options were to take him home and love on him until we knew it was time to say goodbye or they would put him down. The next day we took him to osu vet hospital who are the best of the best around here, and they said the same thing. It is extremely difficult for us to put him down because he is perfectly healthy, but it is getting hard for us to care for him. He is 85 pounds and its hard for us to lift him.
. The date for strict crate rest was Monday June 9 . Jack is showing now signs of pain or discomfort . He is taking Prednisone 20 mg - 2 tablets every 12 hrs and Pepcid . Jack cannot wag is tail or wobble walk. We either carry him or use a towel to support him to walk . We have been expressing the bladder and the vet has been emptying it also. . He is eating and drinking water just fine and the stool is normal . We are also doing a laser therapy with Jack
Thank You so much for all of your input. We are hoping for a miracle
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 14, 2014 12:05:13 GMT -7
Jessica, we are glad you have joined us here on the Forum. The first thing to know is that any professional who really knows IVDD would not make a statement that Jack would never be able to walk again....no one can know that UNLESS the MRI showed the spinal cord had been severed in two. You see nerves can regenerate. It is thought there needs to be 10% of the descending neurons intact for nerve endings to be able to regrow and have the potential for nerve functions to return. Nerve healing can be a long process...that is thinking in terms of months rather than days or weeks. Did the ER say the MRI showed a disc had bulged or ruptured showing pressure to the spinal cord? What name did they give the disease? It is important for you to understand if a bad disc is involved, then the most critical of care is the 100% STRICT rest so the disc can form good strong scar tissue and passive PT waits til off all meds and there is no pain. IF the ER believes another disease for example that looks like a disc problem but is not but instead is kind of a stroke in the spinal cord where the blood supply is blocked off. FCE happens most in the larger breed dog and often does not involve pain. More detail on FCE sevneurology.com/articles/fibrocartilaginous-embolism So if it is FCE then the treatment would be rest but also some light PT on the legs. Let us know more about what the vet concluded as you review the paperwork or call them. Am I reading that you say he is NOT showing any signs of pain? Because Prednisone is not a pain reliever. Pred is an anti-inflammatory that can take anywhere from 5-30 days to get all the swelling down in the spinal cord with a disc episode. So if you ARE seeing signs of pain ( shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, doesn't shift sides or turn around in his recovery suite, tight tense tummy, not normal perky self) then you will need to be a strong advocate to the vet today to get the right combo, dose and frequency of pain meds on board asap today. Do some reading on the pain meds used with IVDD before discussing with your vet, these articles can give you good background information: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm (pain meds) www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm (how the anti-inflammatory Pred works) You do have more of a challenge than we do with our little dogs. So you must have a good sling so you can help him at potty times and to care for him. You can buy one www.walkaboutharnesses.com/collections/walkabout-harnesses/products/airlift-one or you can make one www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies/Figure8.jpgHow are you doing with expressing the bladder. He'll stay dry inbetween expressing sessions if you are expressing often enough. While on pred that might be every 2-3 hours. Once off of pred evert 6-8 hours. Achieving the skill level to actually feel the bladder as it goes pretty flat means you'll be able to extend the amount of time between expressing sessions. Watch the video on the large dog as well as for the little dog....all good tips. How to express for poop and for urine: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmOur sole expertise is with disc disease (IVDD) so we would not comfortable to comment on other diseases. I'm recommending you check out handicapped pets because you will find help in the home care department for a larger dog. And incase this turns out to NOT be IVDD (intervertebral disc disease) you will have a resource there: expressing station for a large dog: www.handicappedpet.net/help/viewtopic.php?p=48480Handicapped Pet's Forum: www.handicappedpet.net/helppets/viewforum.php?f=4 Hang in there, don't give up on Jack. We look forward to hearing back and whether we can help you in any way.
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Post by Jessica's Jack on Jun 15, 2014 6:58:14 GMT -7
The exact diagnosis for jack from the hospital is Intervertebral disk disease type III with hemorrhage and inflammation. There was no mention of severing the spine. They did say he had quite a bit of white and gray matter damage in the spinal cord. Thank you for all the input and support.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 15, 2014 8:49:09 GMT -7
Jessica, does Jack continue to show no hint of pain on the 20mg Pred 2x/day + Pepcid AC? (no shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy, not his normal perky self)
How are you and your husband doing with expressing at home. How often are you expressing and does he stay dry in between sessions?
Never give up, stay focused, stay postitive and stay strong! You and Jack will get through this bump in the road of life. It is still very early in the healing phase for the disc and very, very early in regard to nerve healing.
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Post by Jessica's Jack on Jun 15, 2014 17:20:29 GMT -7
Jack does not show pain, shivering , trembling,yelping when picked up or moved , not reluctant to move he stands up on his front paws. Yes my husband is expressing him, should be wrap him for urinating? No not staying completely dry. Do you have any ideas that could help with urination and keeping dry.
What is the best way to keep him dry. How many dogs have you followed and they walked? The vet at Ohio State said he would never walk again. and the other vet said 5% chance. What makes it a level 3IVDD from a level one. The OSU vet said it was really rare for a big dog, but other places I went on the internet said it can effect all types of dogs.
I have a two year old and five month old and I cannot pick up Jack during the day, so we are really having a hard time with this. Jack weighs 85 pounds and I cannot lift him. He constantly leaks, today for the first time he cried and my husband picked him up and took him outside and he had to poo. Do you think this could be something? Thank you for taking the time to support us.
Jack also most recently if my husband touches on his tail bone he reacts, he flinches and will turn his head and notice. This started yesterday.
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Lola & Hurley
Helpful Member
2 paralyses, 3 surgeries, 2 conservative treatments. Now walking :)
Posts: 135
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Post by Lola & Hurley on Jun 16, 2014 1:41:57 GMT -7
Hi Jessica, I am so sorry to read what has happened but happy to see that you are taking a proactive initiative in caring for Jack - you can never ask too many questions here on Dodgerslist! Let me try to help you with a few of them. You say that Jack is not staying completely dry. This could mean that he is not being expressed often enough. How often is your husband expressing Jack? Since Jack is on Prednisone, he will likely need to be expressed every two to three hours until off this medication to keep him dry. Steroids create thirst and thus more urine production. (Keep providing constant access to water - this should NOT be limited while on steroids.) If you already are expressing him every 2 hours, and he still is leaking, he could have developed a urinary tract infection. Dogs who have limited mobility are prone to UTIs, this is not uncommon. In that case, you would need to contact your vet for advice. As for chances of Jack walking again, it is better not to think about odds at this stage. Reaction to a gentle touch on the tail is a very good sign, so stay positive. It is still early days and everything is possible. You have many more weeks of crate rest ahead of you. Every dog has an individual healing curve. Dogs do not think in terms of percentages or probabilities and sometimes they surprise us. You are now caring for Jack and giving him a chance of recovery and that's the most important thing. He is resting now so that the inflammation in his spine settles, that is what the Prednisone is for. Some dogs walk after some weeks, some walk after many months. Some never. You will have time to figure out the correct path to ensure Jack's mobility when the time comes. Now, let's concentrate on today and let's not worry about tomorrow - I'm sure that's what Jack is silently thinking, too Dogs can sense our emotions easily and the last thing we want him to feel is that we are sad or sorry for him. Stay positive and talk some 'happy talk' to him, smile and give him positive attention. When all other things are cared for (meds, urination etc.), sometimes, this can be the extra something that makes a difference in recovery Love, Lola
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 16, 2014 5:03:45 GMT -7
The fact that Jack seemed to be aware that he had to poop is a very good sign that bowel control is returning. If so, then bladder control may soon return, too. If he's reacting to be touched on his tail bone by turning and looking, then he has deep pain sensation, which is great. So hang in there! Lola has given you excellent advice on expressing. Be sure to check out our page for expressing tips at www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm. How are you expressing him during the day? You can convert a wire crate to open at the top: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies/cratetopconvert.pdf. You can layer pee pads under Jack, open the top of the crate, lean in and express him on a pee pad and then remove the top pee pad. Use green tea to wash him with. Brew a pot of green tea, let it cool and wipe his legs and belly. Green tea neutralizes the acidity of the urine and helps prevent urine scald and leaves a nice fresh smell. He should stay dry between expressings once you get proficient at it. As Lola said, don't take numbers and percentages into account at all. Nerves take time to heal and the signs of improvement that you've seem indicate nerve healing. The anti-inflammatory is working on getting the swelling down so it's not pressing on the spine and the nerve damage can reverse. Three months after surgery when my Jeremy still couldn't walk, I was told by my vet that Jeremy wouldn't improve any further, but he was walking three months later. So as Lola said, take it one day at a time. Blessings to you all.
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StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
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Post by StevieLuv on Jun 16, 2014 18:50:36 GMT -7
Just to further encourage you - Stevie was paralysed and wasn't supposed to walk again either. She didn't walk, she RAN!!!! Hang in there. There are stories on here of big dogs if you search through the uopdates section. Jude with Penny Laine the Rottweiller and Ted with Buddy the Lab. They may have helpful hints in their stories too. Keeping you in thought and prayer
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