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Post by Timothy & Butters on May 7, 2014 10:16:52 GMT -7
Butters our 5 year old chocolate brown with liver nose dachshund injured his back on April 8th,2014. At first he was just slow walking and avoiding all jumping and climbing stairs. Vet put him on steroids and pain medicine and by next day was back to normal except not jumping due to us not allowing it. That night he was out on backyard patrol and he chased a rabbit in the yard and made it about 30 feet and collapsed. When he got up only could walk backwards not forwards. Took him back to vet and they upped his steroids and then we started 100% crate rest. Next morning he did not have use of hind legs, no control over bladder or bowels either so vet told us to keep him still and confined for next two weeks. By the second week he had regained his bladder and bowel control but still no use of hind legs. When the vet did deep sensory testing Butters did not even move or make a sound. Then last week we took him in for follow up and during the same tests, Butters snapped and growl and even moved his legs some too. We were very careful not to move him during this time and still are very strict on him now weeks later. Been tough time and its hard cause he is the social dog of the pack and very active so restricting him took time for him to except. But yesterday at the vet visit we did some sling walking and his right leg seems to be wanting to work but not his left leg. And he can stand for 30 seconds at a time too so still a ways to go and we are being conservative as well not wishing to push to hard or have a set back. Need to know any feedback on if this sound like normal progress when on conservative treatment? We currently have a crate for when we are out of the house and a ex-pen and bed when we are home. We only let him out when changing bedding or potty breaks which he was pad trained so we just place it next to bedding. Vet has reduced his▼ steroids and we are on a weaning period now to get him off in next few weeks. He does not seem to be or have any pain and loves the sling walking as well. I have rambled I know just trying to give you all a snapshot of what we are doing.
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Post by Jean & Mimi on May 7, 2014 11:15:33 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist! We are so glad you found the site. First thing to know is that it IS in the cards for Butters to get back to enjoying life after recovering. And that picture of Butters is just adorable...what a sweetie!!! With this disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The unknown is simply a scary place. Get ready to fight this disease now and in the future by knowing all things IVDD. There is no better place to start than on our main web page with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Are you ready? Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm Add this comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD to your arsenal of educational resources. Friends, family and those who will be caring for your dog should also watch this DVD www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htm Tape this flyer to your fridge so the whole family knows what things are emergencies: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdfIn order to help you more, could you please answer these questions? ► What is your dog's name? Your name, too. ► What breed is your dog and did you specifically get a diagnosis of IVDD, aka: a disc problem, a disc herniation, a bulging disc, slipped disc? ► What was the date you saw the vet and started the all important 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for this current disc episode? …. STRICT means no sling walking, no laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. Only the very, very, very fewest of footsteps to take care of potty business. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM) ► Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? ► How much does your dog weigh? List the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mg's and times per day given? What was the start dose if a steroid, date of taper? Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory. ► Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? The very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment nt once off of all meds and there is no more pain. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm► Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? ► Eating and drinking OK? Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? ► If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. Don't worry about rambling in your post (you should have read some of mine from when my Mimi had and episode - I was a mess!). It is important to remember that all dogs heal at their own pace and that nerve regeneration can take years. If you fill in the questions above, we can help you a bit better. Looking forward to your responses. |
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Post by Timothy & Butters on May 8, 2014 15:16:34 GMT -7
Jean & Mimi
What is your dog's name? Your name, too. Butters is our dachshund's name and I am Timothy
did you specifically get a diagnosis of IVDD? Vet never x-ray him just went by examination of him and his non responses to reflexes and breed.
What was the date you saw the vet and started the all important 100% STRICT crate rest? Next day after he started showing signs of pain, lifting front paw, not jumping or running normal. He bounced back after day on medicines but then second day collapsed running in the back yard. Took him immediately to vet and he upped his medicines and place him on 100% crate rest 4/9/2014. He lost his bladder control and bowels for first two weeks but has since regained both fully and tail wags too. Last week he regained feeling in hind legs as well since he reacted and had reflexes to testing. We have kept him in crate or in ex-pen 100% and potty breaks we just changed out his bedding three times a day and we layered the bedding so we just pull it out and do not have to lift him up or remove him from crate. Now he isnt showing pain and we let him crawl forward and help him onto a pad to potty so still no lifting.
Is there still currently pain - Was for first two weeks but once he regained his bladder and bowels it stopped. Also he is a active doggie so it took time to adjust to being still as well but now he understands we are helping him or he knows he is getting better cause he now has the routine down pat.
Steroid is
prednisone started at 20mg three times a day for first week, then twice a day for next week, then once a week for third week and now once a day every other day. Pain medicine I think is
Rimadyl and its been three times a day I do not have the bottle with me will post it back later today. No side effects so
no pepcid needed.
Oh and his weigh is 14 lbs too we have lowered his food intake and trying to keep him for gaining weight.
Not able to walk, can stand up to 30 seconds at time and I have been massaging and flexing his legs to keep them from locking up. We did use heat and ice treatments in beginning and it seemed to help him with pain. Tail wagging came back in third week and also seen him stretching his hind legs as well. Started licking them also so must have some feeling coming back too. Vet suggested sling walking just this week and few times a day if Butters can handle it. He doing well and we have noticed his right leg was striding normal but did not support weight, left leg still knuckles and drags.
Yes we have another dachshund in the house so we let her go potty outside when we sling walk him and he will go mark over her spots. His bladder control is fully back and he now lets us know when he needs to go to his pads.
Poops ok and normal eating fine, did have some days he seemed timid to drink but mostly he drinks his water well.
But yes I will have to agree with you, this was a huge undertaking and it took me weeks to get over my guilt that I had done something wrong and allowed him to get injured. We have had 4 dachshunds and our house have step and ramps and none of the other 3 dogs had back issues so we felt that we are good owners. But Butters is tough and I know he will be back one form of another since I do know he loves all of the attention he gets now for sure!
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Post by Hester & Hope+Dashel on May 8, 2014 15:54:51 GMT -7
Welcome to the forum!
You have been very fortunate with the breed. I have had dachshunds in my life since I was 13, and 4 of the 7 in my life have had back problems. When my husband and I got to together and got our first dog together, I was very diligent about never allowing Axel to learn how to do stairs. Both our dogs, Hope and Axel, will stand at stairs and just stare at you, they have no idea how to navigate them, and I like it that way! We also have a ramp leading to the outside, and specifically bought a new house that they could have full access to the main floor with no stairs!
Despite all this - both my furbabies are now in crates. Hope's back went out at the end of April, and Axel had a relapse the following week.
It is horrible seeing them locked up in there. Hope lost control of her back end, and within a week and a half, she was standing and when she'd go to potty, she'd try to walk normally and I thought it was so great - but I think she pushed herself too hard, and we LET her, and now it seems as though she may have had a setback, which tears at my heart.
I know it's so sad to watch them be alone, but we really do have to be strict with the crate rest out of love and consideration for them. We all know there have been times where we hurt ourselves, and then when we started to feel slightly better, we pushed ourselves and found out the next day it was NOT a good idea.
Best of luck with Butters. He's so cute!
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,579
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Post by PaulaM on May 8, 2014 19:43:50 GMT -7
Timothy, many of us have found out that our own vets do not know every disease for every species they treat. Even our own doctors who only treat one species, the human one, don't know all diseases. So on top of vet being several kinds of specialists throughout the day: pediatrician, surgeon, internist, dentist, etc. and treating birds, farm animals, many breeds of dogs each with their own typical diseases, all breeds of dogs, there is just no way we can assume our vets are totally on top of the disease our dog has. Yours may not be comfortable in treating a disc episode. No matter the vet we all have found it is our duty to bone up to become a mini expert on IVDD to put ourselves in position as the team captain, a real participant in our dog's treatments and care, being able to discuss things and ask pertinent questions, recognizing harmful advise and ignoring it. Knowing when and how to hire a new vet if needed. In the next couple of days you can achieve a very good level of knowledge. We hope to hear back that you are investing time in reading and learning. No better place to start so understand conservative treatment and the disease your dog was born with: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmI have a few comments on what you have written because they need your immediate attention: -- It is critically important that you confirm you are NOT giving Prednisone at the same time as Rimadyl. That is a DEADLY combo. If you are, STOP the Rimadyl right away. Get vet help for TWO GI tract protectors asap tonight. Pepcid AC you can get at the grocery store and keep the vet in the loop in the am. Sucralfate is an Rx item you would strongly advocate for. Know your dog's meds in this alpha directory. There are no safe meds only educated dog owners and vets who use meds with care. www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlFDA on using NSAIDs with steroids and the action to take: www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm196295.htm --Can you double check the Prednisone dose? 20 mgs 3x/day or 2x/day is very, very high for 14 lbs dog. That high kind of dose appears to be a dose that is intended to suppress the immune system. The anti-inflammatory dose for that size dog is 5mg 2x/day. What is the current dose in mgs and how often is Prednisone currently being given? -- The hallmark component of conservative treatment is providing an environment to let the disc heal. Discs heal only with 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks. That means NO sling walks only a very, very few footsteps at pottytime to get the job done. Potty times should be exclusively for Butters no other dogs around. Using a harness and leash with the sling to have full control over darting away, taking too many footsteps. Stand in one spot and Butters may only take a few footsteps the 6 foot leash allows. Alternatively, set up an ex-pen or garden edging fence in a 6 foot diameter to Butters knows there will be no darting of or any sniff festing going on.  -- Here at Dodgerslist we don't wait for likely GI tract problems to happen, we follow the vets who know it is wise to be proactive in protection by giving Pepcid AC (famotidine) at the start of any anti-inflammatory. Just as people get stressed and bleeding ulcers from a big move, a change in jobs, etc so don't dogs. Butters entire life has been changed around. North Carolina U. also recognizes the high incidence of GI irritation in dogs with disc problems. The reasons are that pain and change in routines are stresses. NCU and 11+ hospitals working with NCU prescribe a GI protectant. Dogs presented to NCU with IVDD often develop GI upset whether they are given steroid medications or not. www.cvm.ncsu.edu/vhc/tc/clinical_services/neuro/acute_disc.html-- Why are you changing out bedding 3x a day if Butters has bladder control and not leaking urine? Let us know more details on the current situation. Be watchful on the licking that is is not progressing to biting/chewing. Everyone has experienced numbness or pins and needles tingling in your legs when sitting in a bad position for too long a time. Your dog can be feeling abnormal nerve sensations that are mild pins and needles to quite painful burning, on-fire feeling that makes them bite to stop the pain. These are abnormal nerve signals. Immediately put a e-collar on or a lengthwise folded towel and secured closed with duct tape if chewing ensues. Get to a vet for a medicine that can help to control these very painful sensations. The name of the drug is called gabapentin. More on neruopathic pain: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/neuropathy.pdf -- Because Butters body is doing a lot of repair jobs this is not the time to go on a diet. Just feed the amount he should get and if there are treats make them pieces of carrot, apple, a frozen no fat/low salt broth ice cube to lick on. Butters really seems to be going in the right direction of healing. That can continue if you can commit to really being strict with crate rest for the rest of the 8 weeks ...100% and only out at potty times for just a very few footsteps. |
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Post by Timothy & Butters on May 9, 2014 7:54:08 GMT -7
Update, the prednisone was 5mg tablets at first and 3 times a day for 3 days, then he put him on 10mg tablets twice a day for a week. Now he is
10mg Prednisone every other day. Pain medicine is
Methocarbnol .25MG three times a day.
Changing the bedding was for the first two weeks when Butter's had lost control of bladder and bowels, I was expressing him for both but since third week he holds it and let's me know when he needs out of crate to potty which I use pads since he is pad trained. Licking of the legs are not issue anymore and he is flexing his legs more now and last night he almost stood up on his own in his crate. We are sling walking only after the vet okay us to do this and only inside the house and few times a day. His "diet" is same food as before but I did give him some boiled chicken and broth at the beginning I am not starving him but trying to keep him for gaining weight due to the steroids. At age 2 he had anemia and had to be on prednisone and this made him eat himself up to 23 lbs of solid muscle but knowing this I did not want him to eat more than normal and added carrots and green beans to help his appetite. From day one I have been by his side almost 16 hours a day and for the first three weeks slept on the floor next to his crate to keep him calm. We moved him to sleeping at night in his ex-pen and bed and now I sleep on couch above him so he not upset. I am finding that keeping him calm and still is my number one goal so we are very strict with him and last night he was moving his hind legs and tucking them under him instead of flat behind him. So I know ask, if he starts to stand do I let him or not? We are sling walking him and he seems to like it and all he wants to do is go outside but I am not wanting to push his recovery yet. My vet is very good and he owns a Dachshund as well so far he has been right on the money with Butters and he has always treated all of our dogs the same way. He spent three hours that first day showing us how to express the bladder and bowels, correct way to lift him, helped up pick out crate etc.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,579
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Post by PaulaM on May 9, 2014 8:31:39 GMT -7
I can tell how much you are devoted to Butters with your kind care and attention to his needs. Wonderful news that nerves are allowing his hind legs to move up into a standing position and tuck under himself!!! Thank you for clearing up that Butters is not on Rimadyl with Prednisone. Everything in life is the weighing of risk vs. benefit. We risk walking across the parking lot to get to the grocery store door...the benefit of getting food outweighs a small risk we might be run over with a car backing out or going too fast. With a disc episode we also have to weigh the benefits vs. risks. It is beneficial to walk because it will keep the muscles in tone. It is a risk with movement that the early healing disc's scar tissue will be disrupted. So how do you tell whether to do those sling walks and maintain muscle tone or protect the disc? Which is the more important of the two? One of our moderators has been a competitive swim coach at the high levels for years. She has observed how easy and quick it is to rehabilitate muscles. With a dog on crate rest there might be some muscle atrophy. But after 8 weeks of rest, when it is safe for the well healed disc to do physical activity, you will see that muscle tone will come back quickly. During conservative treatment if 100% STRICT rest is not implemented there is a very big chance that additional movement will cause the weak and early healing disc to tear. The potential is for the nerves in the spinal cord to be severely damaged. As nerves are damaged they die, then chemicals are released that cause adjacent nerves to die..this is where you can then observe the loss of nerve functions. IF the nerves are too severely damaged the dog may not be able to regenerate new nerve endings and the dog will be paralyzed for life. So the weighing of risk vs. benefit about going on sling walks boils down to two choices. You either vote in preference to advert muscle atrophy that will come back soon when it is safe after 8 weeks to resume activity. OR you vote for protection of the spinal cord that may never come back if too severely damaged and discontinue sling walks. Does every dog that cheats on crate rest suffer severe consequences to their spinal cord? The answer is no. But in my mind for my own dogs I am not willing to play Russian roulette. Do you feel lucky? Who suffers if you are not lucky? Well your pocketbook will have to pay for some more vet visits and bills. Butters will be the real sufferer. A tear to the disc is quite painful. Then as the swelling takes place in the spinal cord, more pain, potential loss of neuro functions. How sad that would be because he was on such a good tract of healing to have a needless setback. Hope to hear you are not a gambling man with Butter's spinal cord and will highly consider not doing sling walks. Once he is off all meds and there is no pain, this is the way to keep the muscles toned and the joints flexible in a safe manner: The very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment once a dog is off all meds and pain free. The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm |
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Post by Hester & Hope+Dashel on May 9, 2014 10:30:33 GMT -7
If you're worried about muscle atrophy, don't! Axel, my red wiener dog, was in his cage for 8 weeks last year. He had SKINNY little hind legs from muscular ones, but his back healed up so great, and within weeks he was running all over the place and those legs didn't bother him at all. He went from scrawny to "plump chicken thigh" looking in no time flat.
Hope, our little black and tan, pushed herself too hard, DARTING out of her crate when it was time for potty, and we knew she would do it and saw it as a sign that she was feeling much better. We didn't LET her dart, but we knew it would happen, and let her walk more than we probably should, and now she has had a set back and is wobbly on her legs again. It's heartbreaking.
You know your dog the best, but the people on this forum have lived through this with their own animals, and also have developed the literature to educate others about it, and they have coached SO MANY of us through times of doubt and heartbreak when it comes to this unfortunate disease happening to our little furbabies. |
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Lola & Hurley
Helpful Member 
2 paralyses, 3 surgeries, 2 conservative treatments. Now walking :)
Posts: 135 
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Post by Lola & Hurley on May 9, 2014 11:01:28 GMT -7
Hi Timothy! First of all, I want to congratulate you on finding this site and being brave enough to post your story. As dog owners, we all make mistakes, the purpose of this site is to share these mistakes with one another so that others will not have to go through the same. Second, I want to let you know we all know you are doing your very best to give Butters the very best care he can get. There are no stupid questions! I know you are a great pet parent, sleeping next to Butters' crate and keeping him company 16 hours a day. Now, what I really want to say is that we've all been there, some of us more than others, thinking that 8 weeks of STRICT crate rest (no walking except very few steps at potty time) is harsh and too strict, and if the dog can, why not let him take a few extra steps to keep up the muscle tone? But it's really the worst you can do for Butters' recovery at this stage. We humans tend to think of our dogs as "humans" too, as if they would be able to tell us if they cannot or when they start hurting. Most of the time, they just want to please us. When we say "good boy" when they take their first few steps after paralysis, they think "I'm a good boy, I'll take a few more steps because Mommy / Daddy likes it"... And then, something happens, a step in the wrong direction, a cat running, doorbell ringing, anything, a little slip of attention... Or it could just be a normal looking step tearing some of the very delicate tender scar tissue forming around the injury. It is not worth it!!!!!!! I know, from reading your posts, that you take all of this to your heart, so please take it from all of us who have gone through this. It's just eight weeks, and Butters can have a lifetime of fun and play afterwards. Hang in there, and whatever you do, do not give up on the strict crate rest!!! Love, Lola
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Post by Timothy & Butters on May 25, 2014 12:42:40 GMT -7
Butters update:
Butters is still making good progress and can stand up and walk a few steps out of his crate unassisted. Still on crate rest and our vet is ready to start water walking and acupuncture treatments in a few weeks. Butters is alert and normal behavior except for walking and is very comfortable in his bed and ex-pen so we let him stay in it more now instead of the crate. Meaning he sleeps still and isn't thrashing about and I can open the end up and lay in there with him at times for naps and he loves being able to nap without a cage between us. I'm now just trying to keep him calm and relax which he was such a daddy's boy before. It's been easier now since he is sleeping longer and I get to sleep back in my bed and his sister Los sleeps out in the living room with him so he is not alone.. He is back on normal potty schedule so we are not having to change bedding or pads until he uses a pad. So things to note, he started Stratching his ear with his left leg and been stretching more. Both legs seem to getting stronger cause he is standing more in his crate. Eager to get two more weeks and see how is going to handle the water and acupuncture treatments. But very encouraged with his recovery.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,579
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Post by PaulaM on May 25, 2014 18:11:30 GMT -7
Timothy, wow what a great report with all that leg activity showing nerve functions returning nicely. With time it bodes well for walking better and after crate rest is over that water therapy will be just the thing to help him to relearn the art of walking. It does take practice to learn how to coordinate muscles with nerves.
We look forward to your next update!
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Post by Timothy & Butters on Jun 13, 2014 8:49:23 GMT -7
Butters update: He has now been off crate rest for a week and we have eased him back to some sense of normal activities like snuggling on the couch or bed. He has movement in both legs and can stand and walk few steps well then starts wobbling after and seems to just want to scoot on the floor. He is also eating and drinking from his bowls in the kitchen like before so we are thinking he is just wanting to be normal again in behavior. I still carry him outside for his potty breaks ( We are having landscaping done to make it pet and wheel cart friendly) and on the ground he stands well and does his business like before so this weekend going to set up a small inflatable pool to start him on water walking to help get his legs back into shape. I did sling walk him last night outside to see how he would do and to our surprise he walked with the sling all over the place and made several circles around the yard. He had this look on his face like to say, "come on daddy lets go!" I picked him up and came inside and instead of him going and getting on his bed he looked up at the couch and barked. I picked him up and he laid next to me for next two hours sleeping, just like before! I am really happy at his progress and we are being extremely conservative on his activity's cause we know its a long road and we are not out of the woods yet and we want him to be healthy and pain free as well. Best part is we are sleeping back in our beds now so both dogs and people are getting good nights rest! Best part of all of this was when a person who we know came by the other night while I was outside with Butters and when they got out of their car, Butters walked, about ten steps normal to greet them with his tail wagging a hundred miles an hour!! They said." Wow!! He has made a great recovery!" Just an update for everyone more next week after pool time. Thanks again for all the support and positive thoughts!!  |
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 13, 2014 9:01:02 GMT -7
Congratulations on graduating crate rest! Wonderful news on Butters' progress. He's doing very well indeed. Do take it slowly though. He's been on crate 8 weeks and he needs time to slowly build up those muscles and his stamina. I do think it's too early to be walking him in a swimming pool. While that's very good therapy once he's built up muscle and strength, I think it should wait for a few weeks yet, until he's been off of crate rest for a month. Please take a look at this link - I found the schedule on there to be very helpful when my Jeremy graduated crate rest. Too much movement now and it would be difficult to know if he does show discomfort whether it's from a relapse, new disc injury or just muscle soreness from too much movement. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmGood job on using the sling to stabilize his spine while walking. Prayers for many happy, disc free years ahead for Butters. |
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Post by Timothy & Butters on Jul 11, 2014 17:35:30 GMT -7
Butters update:
Now on week 11 since he went down. We have been sling walking him every few days giving him a day of rest in between his work outs. This week he started walking on his own and can now walk himself outside for his potty breaks. Still has a bunny hop every once in a while but is walking very normal. But if he goes to fast he stops walking and slides on his feet. If he takes it slow he can walk entire time normally. Using harness on him this week to control his pace better. He has been such a happy boy too has this bark thing now when he goes outside now like he is telling us " look I'm a normal again!" Still keeping him in his pen when we leave for long periods but he loves his bed and blankets so he in it most of the day. Tried water treatment in tub but he never like baths so didn't do anything but sit. But he is about 85% back now.
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