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Post by Jayne & Winnie on Apr 28, 2014 15:33:46 GMT -7
I know that my Winnie is not a Doxie but am hoping this is alright. This is far and away the best resource I have found on IVDD. The past week has been a whirlwind of mixed emotions for my husband and I. In July of last year, we noticed Winston being a little wobbly but not acting as if he was in any pain. We took him to a vet in our new city, who did very well with our other two pups. He more or less told us that it was arthritis and gave us Remadil.
Fast foward to a week ago, when Winnie starts dragging his back legs and having trouble holding his bladder. We call the vet, who tells us it is time to put him down. With a heavy heart, we make the appointment for Friday, 4/25. But something tells me that our happy, loving dog is not done quite yet. I call for a second opinion with a more experienced vet and bring him in an hour later, carrying him carefully as to not put more strain on his hind end. The vet does a neuro exam and gives us a likely diagnosis of IVDD WITH deep pain. As financially, a $6000 surgery for a 12 year old dog is not in the cards, she began conservative treatment on Friday.
-- What is your dog's name? Winston! 28 lbs.
Pembroke Corgi. We got a "90%" diagnosis of IVDD.
-- What was the date you saw the vet and started 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7? Friday, April 25
-- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? No sign of pain. He doesn't even object to being picked up as long as we are careful.
Prednisone 10 mg, twice a day then tapering. Currently day 3 of twice a day.
He is able to get to a standing position to use the bathroom but quickly falls over without a sling. He does not move his back legs on his side that I have seen. Also, have not observed any tail wagging, though his tail is docked and his fur is long.
No accidents that I have been able to find. He passes the "sniff pee test" within a minute of being taken outside.
-- Eating and drinking OK? Yes! He is as hungry as ever.
-- Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood? Normal bowel habits for him (he had a pouch which requires regular "help" to avoid constipation.)
Basically, I feel incredibly guilty that we did not think to get a second opinion sooner and it had to get to this point. We have NEVER been ones to wait to see the vet but did trust this one who let us down. I am just hoping for reassurance that he will be able to regain his quality of life after crate rest is over. Are there any signs of degeneration or improvement that I should look out for? Should I take him back to the vet in a week for another neuro exam?
Just so lost and heartbroken, wracked with guilt and so angry (at the previous vet) I could scream.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 28, 2014 16:15:39 GMT -7
Jayne, we are so happy you found us...Welcome!! We can't expect that all vets will know all disease for every species they will treat (rabbits, dogs, reptiles, cats, farm animals). What we can expect is a good vet will be open minded to learn, consult with colleagues and refer when they just don't know. What we expect from ourselves as owners of an IVDD dog is to read, Read, rEAd and to never more just blinding follow directions. But instead to become the captain of Winnie's health care team, joining in discussion, asking pertinent questions and know how meds and treatments work, saying "no" to well meaning but harmful treatments. Reading will help you firm up in your mind that it IS in the cards for Winnie to get back to enjoying life again after completion of all 8 weeks devoted to letting his disc heal. The good news is that Winnie can be a good candidate to recover with conservative treatment if, IF, you can be committed to the strict crate rest part. Just so we are on the same page that means: 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal… only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen…there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest… as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal. Over the next several days do get this information under your belt so you will be the savvy owner Wiinnie needs you to be: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm The search box on our main web page is a great way to find the location of a topic of interest to you  What date is the Pred scheduled to taper down? Good reading to understand what your job is on the taper, and how pred works: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmPhrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in protecting the stomach by giving doxies 5MG Pepcid AC (generic name is Famotidine) 30 mins prior to steroid. Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory very good for learning about each of your dog's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm Pleases to hear there are no signs of pain. Typically there is pain until Pred can get the swelling down over the course of 7-30 days. So be aware of any hint of pain and know there are pain meds that are typically used : www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm |
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Post by Jayne & Winnie on Apr 28, 2014 16:38:57 GMT -7
Thank you!
I have been devouring the information on the site and intend to call about the Pepcid AC first thing in the morning.
The first taper is on Wednesday - a 5 day period. He was initially on a 7 day but decided to be cautious. The vet had only advised me to be very cautious about any stomach symptoms.
I have been very strict about the crate rest, even though Winston tries to run around when we are outside (he is kept leashed and either on a sling or with me waddling around behind him supporting his backside.) To be honest, it has been a battle to keep him from launching himself out of the crate whenever I open the door.
I do believe that there is pain, though Winston has never been a complainer. There are none of the obvious signs mentioned, the only indication that he is uncomfortable is sitting up and panting when he is in his crate. Eventually, he will calm himself, lie down, and finally relax. He is not liking being cooped up and watching our other two run and play.
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Post by Sherry Layman on Apr 28, 2014 17:28:54 GMT -7
The panting can be a side effect of medications...prednisone is one medication that can cause panting and some restlessness. If you see none of the more classic signs of pain it's likely he is experiencing this side effect and not in pain. At this early stage though you do want to observe closely for signs of comfort or discomfort. And when you start the taper of the prednisone you will want to be especially alert for changes. Any signs of discomfort or regression of neuro symptoms warrant returning to the full dose of prednisone again.
I know how hard it can be to keep them from "launching" out the crate door. The solution I found was to use the dog and his crate as my coffee table decoration. The dog was happier up on the coffee table anyway because he could see more of what was happening around the house. But the advantage to me was I could sit on the couch in front of the crate and guard the door as I opened it. With my knees against the crate I could guide him onto my lap and get him into a position where I could safely pick him up supporting his back properly.
Indeed it is harder when you have others that are still living their normal lives while you have one that is crated. I used to have to remind myself what the 8 weeks really were in relationship to the life of my dog...a pretty short time in comparison. Impossible to explain it to them unfortunately but I guess it's the "tough love" pare of being a "parent". Hang in there.
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Post by Jayne & Winnie on Apr 28, 2014 20:23:39 GMT -7
Very discouraged tonight. Winnie does not seem to be doing well at all. He barked a couple of times after his dinner and when I got to him to take him outside he had soaked his bedding and himself. When I was carrying him at this point he did not seem as calm as normal and possibly had some tightness and tenderness in his belly.
We cleaned him up and laid down a clean, dry towel over his bedding until he dries off. He is currently sleeping but I am not sure what to do - I was not expecting him to deteriorate over 72 hours like this.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 28, 2014 21:07:17 GMT -7
Hi Jayne! Prednisone causes them to be very thirsty and therefore they need to potty more frequently than normal. I suggest at least every 2 to 3 hours until you get a feel for the timing, so he keeps a dry bed.. Let us know when you take him outside next time if he STILL passes the sniff and pee test. If he still passes it, it likely means he has bladder control. He was barking to let you know earlier and that tells me he is aware.. If he doesn't pass the sniff and pee test it would be necessary to get a lesson from your vet on how to express Winnie so he doesn't overflow on his bedding. To get more out of the lesson please read this and watch the videos: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmBlankets and change of bedding: Fleece fabric as a bottom sheet wicks moisture away from skin (have 2-3 on hand) and dries quickly. Inexpensive fleece throw can be cut to sizes at Big Lots, Walgreens 2/$10. You can buy fleece yardage at JoAnn Fabric Store or the like. This is a no-sew project as fleece does not ravel. Layer in this manner: Trash bag enclosed mattress, pee pad*, fleece bottom sheet tucked in all around mattress. *Use human pee pads as they have no scent to encourage peeing. *OPTION to disposable pee pads are reusable waterproof absorbent bed pads: reasonably priced, washable and last a long time. www.allegromedical.com/ ; look for children's disposable bed mats at your grocery store. Cut down the twin size to make several crate size ones. More tips on crate rest: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm and www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmIf you feel he is in pain, I would call and let the Vet know that he he is in pain and ask for Tramadol. It makes a big difference when they are pain free from dose to dose. Dogs aren't obvious about being in pain, they hide it, and you were quick to catch on to this. You can read about the different pain medications typically used for IVDD is this article. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmSending comforting thoughts your way... |
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Post by Hester & Hope+Dashel on Apr 29, 2014 13:09:51 GMT -7
Hi Jayne,
I have my Hope's crate set up with fleece blankets I bought at Ikea for $5. Cut into quarters, they fit the crate nicely. I also wrap a crate liner (really flat pad) in a pee pad too, and it makes for a comfortable but stable bottom of the crate for my dog, but if she has a pee/poop accident, it's super easy and fast to change it out and then she has something else dry to lie on.
Remember when you're taking him out to potty to try to support his back end with a sling or something. They have lots of suggested materials and ways to do this on this site!
Hope had a sore tummy for about a week and a half, and although we suspected it was her back, we really convinced ourselves it was a gastro issue. All of a sudden she went from walking around fine to not being able to support her own weight or control her legs all that well in under 24 hours.
Crate rest is absolutely essential, as is the appropriate dosage of anti-inflammatories and pain medication.
Good luck with Winnie!
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Post by Jayne & Winnie on Apr 29, 2014 18:39:32 GMT -7
Okay, so Winston did have an accident while I was at work (I came home during my lunch break to let him out). However, tonight he barked to let me know he needed to go outside, and then waited until I had sat him down to go - and he went, A LOT. Am I correct in assuming this confirms that he still possesses a degree of bladder control? Because if so, I am ecstatic.
I called my vet today, who approved him for Pepcid at 20 mg. His last ▼12 hour steroid dose is tomorrow morning, though, and his stool is fine (a little loose, but I have been giving a little extra coconut oil due to his inactivity and medicine) so I think we are doing well on the stomach front.
I was not able to get pain meds today, but the tenderness and tightness from yesterday is gone. He seems comfortable and has been either laying down and watching everything or napping. He does his usual "YOU'RE BRINGING FOOD!" dance, hopping from side to side with his front paws, when I approach his crate with the food bowl. I wish he weren't so furry so I could see his if his tail/nub was wagging!
All in all, aside from the accident, a good day.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 30, 2014 7:34:11 GMT -7
Jayne it does appear bladder control is returning in that he chose to wait to pee til outdoors. Really the GOLD standard test of proof is to observe that he first sniffed (head level) an old pee spot and then a message traveled the spinal cord highway down to the bladder nerves where he then released urine. Let us know he can specifically pass the "sniff and pee" test. We do not recommend any changes in foods or supplements while on meds. It is confusing if vomit, loose stools is related to a temporary food problem or a more serious need to take prompt action of getting TWO stomach protectors on board due to the severe GI tract damage steroids have the potential to do. The taper off the 5 day course of pred today is the time to be particularly observant for any hint of pain or backwards direction of neuro function. It is indeed prudent to assess swelling resolution with a taper as no one wants to use meds beyond the time they have accomplished the task of getting inflammation taken care of. Do not be dissappointed if more than a 5 day course of pred is necessary as it can usually take anywhere from 7-30 days to resolve all swelling. We've got our fingers crossed for a smooth taper for Wiinnie and that you will see no hint of pain: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy, not normal perky self. Rule of thumb: Pain = swelling = more time on steroid, pain meds and Pepcid AC |
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Post by Jayne & Winnie on May 2, 2014 6:53:12 GMT -7
I am amazed. The past two days have been really exciting.
Yesterday when I let Winston out of his crate, he stood up. Like, actually stood up! He had also held his bladder for several hours and when we put him in his peeing spot, he sniffed and squatted and peed. He also was trying to wobbly walk the whole time.
He had his second dry night in a row, and upon taking him out this morning I noticed that his right paw actually corrected itself from the "knuckling" on its own! It may have been a fluke but I am very excited.
He does not seem to be in pain, and his stool is firm and normal colored. He consistently barks to let us know when he needs to go and pees after sniffing his pee spot. We are only a week into crate rest and currently on Pred every 24 hours until every 48 ▼ pred starts on Wednesday. Looking forward to see what a full course of rest brings!
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Post by Jean & Mimi on May 2, 2014 7:46:53 GMT -7
Jayne,
This is great news, it seems like Winnie definitely has bladder control back - Yay! Bladder control is something to celebrate.
And also good news about his "consciousness" of his paw. Watch him and make sure he isn't trying to walk too much, especially as he is feeling better.
Go Winnie!
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