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Post by Cori & Oscar on Apr 27, 2014 16:07:38 GMT -7
Hello friends, I am in desperate need of doxie support. My boy Oscar (he's 5) hurt his back. I've taken him to the vet twice in Illinois , they poked him all over his back and checked his reflexes, all of which responded like they were supposed to, and they did a full blood panel which came back saying I've got a healthy little boy. They gave me some anti inflammitories (Rimadyl) and pain meds (Tramadol) and said to crate rest him. I asked about IVDD and they said the only way to diagnose that is a MRI which costs much much more than I can afford so that is why I'm here. My concern here is 1 they can't tell me exactly what's wrong, I only know it's his back from watching how he's acting at home and 2 he appears to hurt again an hour or so before I can give him his medication again so I almost feel like it's just putting a bandaid on a bigger problem. My husband thinks I'm over thinking things, which I wouldn't be surprised if I were as this is my baby and I'm always a worst-case-scenario kind of person. Please, oh please, can someone ease my mind? Will crate rest do the trick? How long should he stay in there? I've watched him closely, his stool isn't as firm as it should be but the color is right, when he goes outside to potty, he doesn't act like it hurts to walk at all. He wasn't eating his dry dog food too well but when I started adding wet food to it, he eats it just fine. No vomiting at all. He acts like nothing is wrong but as I stated earlier, I can tell he starts hurting before I can give him his medicine again. I talk positive to him all the time but I'm just so worried. I hope this is the correct place to be posting this as this is the first time I've ever used a forum and I apologize if it isnt. Thank you so much for reading.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 27, 2014 17:13:42 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. We are friendly group and just go by first names. My name is Paula what is yours? Two things are very important for you do. 1. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. The crate is the only surface that is firm, supportive for the spine, not inclining, always horizontal and keeps a dog from darting off at a TV doorbell and safe from other pets and kids from bothering them. The rest of the details of doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this excellent document: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm 2. Read. Caring for an IVDD dog is all about education to know, fight and win with this enemy. It is easy to make mistakes and not be committed to the treatment when full understanding of IVDD has not yet been achieved. And for mind, knowledge lets you step out of a very scary place…"the unknown" and the toll it takes on your emotions. This Forum is here to help Oscar get things right asap while you work on absorbing all you can from our main web page in the next several days. Are you ready? Here's the page to bookmark: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm PAIN His pain meds are most clearly NOT yet right. When meds are right the pain is in control in an hour and stays that way dose to dose. Your vet needs to know your observations of pain. This background reading is necessary so you can participate strongly in advocating for getting the right combo, right dose in mg and frequency on board asap tomorrow morning: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmSTOMACH PROTECTION. Nausea can proceed to vomit, loose stools when GI tract protective meds are not on board along with use of Rimadyl. The FDA and manufacturer pkg insert indicate gastrointestinal problems are side effects of using NSAIDs. The natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Serious gastrointestinal toxicity such as bleeding, ulceration, and perforation, can occur at any time, with or without warning symptoms. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason my dog may not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory very good for learning about each of your dog's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm HOW anti-inflammatories WORK Understanding the meds, what you should monitor for and how long to wait, means understanding what each medication's job is... otherwise there is indeed confusion, not knowing if you are doing the right thing, etc. Good background reading to get up to speed on the meds that reduces spinal cord swelling. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmQUESTIONS -- What was the date you saw the vet and 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for this current disc episode? -- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy in addition to nearing the next dose of meds? -- How much does your dog weigh? --- Please list the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mg's and frequencies? -- Currently can Oscar wobbly walk with rear legs? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you do some happy talk? -- Do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? -- If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. Never give up, stay focused, stay postitive and stay strong! You and Oscar will get through this bump in the road of life. |
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Post by Heather & Diesel on Apr 27, 2014 17:43:19 GMT -7
Talk with your vet. It can sometimes be a process to get the pain meds right. You DO NOT want your pup to be in pain because that will not help him heal. When my dog has an episode, he is on tramadol for general pain, gabapentin for nerve pain, rimadyl for inflammation and famotidine for his tummy. This last episode we also had valium as a muscle relaxer because he was having very intense muscle spasms. All those meds seem like a lot, but they are crucial to assisting with pain management and work in tandem with strict crate rest. Stay strong, and never hesitate to call your vet if you feel something needs to be added or taken out of the equation. You are your pups mouth piece so it's ok to be a pain  |
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Post by Cori & Oscar on Apr 27, 2014 18:09:40 GMT -7
Hi guys, my name is Cori. Oscar first saw the vet last Friday, the 18th. She thought it initially was pancreatitis because he has a tense tummy. They tested for it and it came back negative so she prescribed the meds mentioned in my first post and said to crate rest him. The tense tummy has since gone away. My life got crazy that week, my husband and I closed on our first house on the 16th so we were painting and packing and all that fun stuff and I figured that part of Oscar's problem was stress due to his home changing so drastically. I let him sleep with us to help things seem normal, I know now that that was a mistake. I also was not strict about the crate rest, I hated seeing him locked up. I took a week off of work to do all of the house things, I went back on the 24th. Towards the end of my time off, he seemed to almost go back to normal. I have a crate that can accommodate a German sheppard, I have 2 dachshunds that share it when my husband and I aren't home. There is more than enough room for both of them to stand on hind quarters. The day I went back, Oscar hurt himself again and I took him back to the vet as soon as I got off and noticed his pain. That is when they did the full blood panel and everything came back normal and that is the day I got a crate small enough for him to only have enough room to turn around in and the strict crate rest began. As far as his pain goes, he only whines a little bit when I pick him up to take him down the few steps to the backyard for potty, that's it. He weighs 13.4 pounds, I'm not sure if that is too much or not but the vet didn't mention anything in regards to it. I'm not sure what you mean by wobbly walk, he appears to be walking just fine, even still has the little pip in his step like he always has. He wags his tail any time I talk to him, unless it's right before his next dose of meds. I couldn't even tell you the last time he's had an accident, there are no issues there. I think that covered everything you asked Paula. Thank you and Heather & Diesel for responding, I really need the support for my baby boy.
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Post by Heather & Diesel on Apr 27, 2014 18:38:28 GMT -7
Glad to hear that Oscar is showing improvement. Certainly stick with the crate rest. I know it's hard - and will be for the both of you. The big blessing is that the meds to help him heal cause drowsiness so add that in to them being small nap loving hounds and it makes the strict crate rest easier. I would keep my Diesel in a large laundry basket - I put down a standard sized bed pillow for him to have cushion and he had his blanket so he could burrow. A small toy for snuggles and he did well. It made it easier on my husband and I to transport him from room to room and seemed to keep him calmer since the top is open. This is also how I transport him to vet appointments, kind of like a car seat for him. The neuro vet actually recommends this as an option to his patients since it makes a world of difference for some pets. Always have him with you. No sleeping in the bed either! What I did was put the laundry basket at the head of my bed and would sleep a little sideways (we have a king size bed). It helped me be able to get sleep because he could see he was with us through the openings in the basket but he was still confined. Good luck to you and Oscar. It's hard, but you can do it! editor's note: Dodgerslist is all about caring for our IVDD dogs in the safest manner possible. The type recovery suites that we recommend are sturdy, do not tip over and the dog can't escape from them. Dogs will always do the unexpected and we must stay one step ahead of them. Laundry baskets are a danger to a dog trying to heal a disc and are never recommended. For good options for recovery suites check out this article: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm |
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Post by Hester & Hope+Dashel on Apr 27, 2014 19:21:25 GMT -7
Hi Cori,
I had an Oscar - he was my first wiener dog when I was a teenager. He also had a disc issue - it didn't end well because this website hadn't been established back in 1994 or so. My parents didn't know what I know now, and that is that crate rest might have saved his back, and might have saved his life.
At any rate, my little Hope presented very similarly to what your Oscar is presenting like, and she even had the "normal little trot" when I took her to the vet with a tight sore tummy. We too thought that it was digestive issues since she'd had some in the past, but we also considered it was her back, and tried to be more careful with her. In under 24 hours after a week and a half of tummy pain, she went from being able to trot across the lawn to unable to stand on her own, and not in control of her legs. I feel so much guilt for not caging her because I felt "silly" about it.
She is bonded with our other dog Axel, and they too sleep together in a large crate at night. I allowed this to continue until she lost control of her legs. I wish I'd been more careful. We have a small crate that is just her size from when Axel went through his disc episode last summer, so now we have her in that crate, and Axel sleeps in his big crate right next to her, and they seem to be doing ok.
Crate rest is the best right now, you might never notice any difference in him except that in a few weeks, he won't have a sore tummy anymore, but take it from me, someone who is now experiencing this with the fourth dog in my life to have a disc issue - it's so much better to be overcautious and cage your little guy up than have to look at them dragging their hind end and being in pain.
THE WORST thing that can happen if it's NOT his back is that he'll be annoyed at you for locking him up!!! The BEST thing that can happen if it IS his back is that he'll be properly rested and he won't lose control of his legs, ability to walk or his bladder or bowel.
I hope he feels better soon!! Just know that everything you're doing for him is out of love and kindness, even if he's giving you the stink eye for locking him up!
I understand the money thing, we have refused to have an MRI done on Hope because it's kind of obvious what's going on, and $1000 for a diagnostic test that's not going to change or cure what's happening to her just doesn't make sense right now.
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Post by Cori & Oscar on Apr 27, 2014 19:47:07 GMT -7
I would absolutely love to try the laundry basket thing but I know for certain that Oscar wouldn't stay in it. I haven't noticed any kind of trouble with his legs (thank goodness) and the vet checked his reflexes and it all seemed good so I'm not sure if we caught whatever this is super early or what have you. Thank you guys for your support, you have no idea how much it means to me.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 27, 2014 20:37:01 GMT -7
Dodgerslist is all about caring for our IVDD dogs in the safest manner possible. The type recovery suites that we recommend are sturdy, do not tip over and the dog can't escape from them. Dogs will always do the unexpected and we must stay one step ahead of them. Laundry baskets are a danger to a dog trying to heal a disc and are never recommended. For safe options for recovery suites check out this article: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm |
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Vita & Emmie
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Currently graduated for the 3rd time; walking and running!
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Post by Vita & Emmie on Apr 28, 2014 16:22:59 GMT -7
Hi Cori! You are not alone on this journey and we all want to help you get Oscar what he needs so you have peace of mind and Oscar has healing comfort. My vet diagnosed IVDD by X-ray - not MRI and that was prior to Emmie's first episode. Irrespective of the diagnosis - like Hester said, the worst thing the conservative crate rest could do, was make Oscar a little put out at you. But in the meantime, he needs it. You can pet him and comfort him in there. I had to get Emmie a more open crate and she sleeps beside my bed in there with a heating pad in there. She was a lifetime sleep-in-my-bed dog prior to that so I'm surprised she went for it. She must have been very sore. The whine at pick up is Emmie's dead give-away "tell". That's when we know a back issue is imminent so I'd say that speaks quite loudly for Oscar. We did learn the hard way with Emmie when we "cheated" on the crate rest and let her out onto a lap or left her in a bed while I changed her crate - the moderators know what they are talking about when they tell us to secure our dogs for their own good. So we need to find a good solution for you and Oscar. Other people on the forum have talked about dog strollers because they are higher and the dog can see you better? Maybe consider that?
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Post by Cori & Oscar on Apr 30, 2014 6:40:14 GMT -7
I just ordered a stroller yesterday Vita, I think it's going to work out much better than the crate he's in now. I hadn't thought of a heating pad though, that would probably be smart to put in there. Thank you for your kind words.
I've been very strict about the crate rest as I was told to do. I don't notice his pain as much as I had, so that's good. However, I did notice yesterday morning and this morning that he seems more sore than before. It gets better as the day goes on, the morning just seems kinda rough. I've caught him sleeping in a ball instead of straight, I don't know how to stop him from doing that. I appreciate all of the advice you guys have given me.
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 30, 2014 9:00:28 GMT -7
Hi, Cori. Strollers can be a good alternative but I would like to share some cautions in their use with you. Please check out this page for more info on stroller use: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htmWe at Dodgerslist don't recommend using heating pads. The better option we find is a non-electrical commercial product that will stay warm the whole night. The brand Snuggle Safe is heated in the microwave to be inserted in a cover and placed under blankets. You can find on-line or at a local pet shop and this is what they look like: www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=E53AAF66-347A-4789-AFCC-5D6FA77ED8B6&item=30459&ccd=IFP003&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_content=30459Sleeping in a ball is fine so no need to worry about that. In fact, it indicates that he's feeling more comfortable and it's actually a good sign. When you say that he seems more sore in the mornings, could you give us more specifics on that? What are you seeing in the morning? Is this before his pain meds are given? If you feel he has any pain or discomfort in between giving doses of pain meds, you should let your vet know so adjustments can be made. There should be no sign of pain from one dose of meds to the next. Keep up the good work - Oscar is a lucky boy to have you in his corner! |
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Post by Cori & Oscar on Apr 30, 2014 10:16:58 GMT -7
I'm so glad that it's a good thing he's sleeping in a ball! He first started doing it yesterday, I just sort of took it as he finally accepted that he is not getting out of the pen and might as well get comfortable, but it still make me nervous because his spine wasn't totally straight.
I don't own a heating pad so I would've had to purchase one, I'm glad you told me about that before I did.
What I mean by he seems more sore in the mornings is that's the only time of the day I can see that he's in pain when I pick him up for potty time. The rest of the day, he seems fine. I gave him his meds about an hour or so before I took him out. I don't know if it's because he slept all night in a certain position and he's sore just like we would be if we didn't move for a long period of time or what but during the day, I've normally got him in front of a window and he'll casually readjust himself every now and then while bird watching.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 30, 2014 12:03:41 GMT -7
Cori I see we don't have a med list for Oscar so my comments are in general. When you can please give us the full details on his meds. 13.4 pounds Rimadyl ?mg, ?x/day Tramadol ?mg, ?x/day Pepcid AC should be 5mg 2x/day Pain is unacceptable when there are plenty of options to get full control dose to dose. Pain is happening in the morning because the pain med has worn off. Generally Tramadol needs to be given at minimum every 8 hours (3x/day) So if it is only given 2x a day that is explanation of the pain. If you are giving 3/x a day, then you'll need to advocate for additional pain meds to be on board. Good background reading to update yourself on the typical pain meds used with IVDD before advocating for Oscar's needs. The vet will depend on your feedback and observations to know if pain meds need further tweaking. Here the med info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmDo you now have a stomach protector on board: Pepcid AC? Use of Rimadyl and no protector on board is serious business to attend to today. |
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Vita & Emmie
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Post by Vita & Emmie on Apr 30, 2014 16:10:00 GMT -7
Hi - just a quick note about heat - I agree that the Snuggle Safe is a great option, but I couldn't get one to Canada fast enough for Em. The "wheat pillow" type things, she would eat and also they only stay warm for 20 minutes. I needed something so she could relax and sleep for a long time and rest comfortably. The heating pad I got is specifically for vets - temperature governor so it won't burn or cook puppy. That said, I wouldn't leave anything with a cord with any dogs that are chewers and not unattended! My other weenie (she's the mischievous one) got a big electrocution via curling iron cord - so I've learned that the hard way (she was fine but it was very, very scary).
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Post by Cori & Oscar on Apr 30, 2014 16:55:11 GMT -7
The Rimadyl (twice a day) is 25 mg and the Tramadol (3x a day)is 50 mg. That is all I have to give him. In regards to the pepcid ac, I'll send my husband to go get some now. This is the medication for people we're talking about, right? Just the 5mg doses.
Edit, We now have the pepcid ac
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Sabrina
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My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
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Post by Sabrina on Apr 30, 2014 18:48:21 GMT -7
Hi Cori, I'm Sabrina. So sorry to hear that Oscar is having a disc episode, but I'm so glad you are here at Dodger'sList researching how to help him through this! About the PepcidAC: Have you asked your vet about giving this to Oscar? Phrase the question to your vet this particular way: "Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not to take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the NSAID. Pepcid is generally considered a safe-over-the-counter suppressor of stomach acid production for a healthy dog and good insurance. Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory is in alpha order: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/stomachProtection.htmAbout the pain Oscar is still having: Are his 3 daily doses of Tramadol at 8hr intervals? Like Paula said, the goal of pain meds is that Oscar feels no pain dose to dose. Do speak with your vet about Oscar's pain - pain management needs to be "customized" to Oscar, so his vet needs to know what you are observing. We need so much patience getting through a disc episode - except we can have no patience with pain as it hinders healing! ))Hugs!(( |
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Post by Cori & Oscar on Apr 30, 2014 20:27:06 GMT -7
Yes, they are at 8 hour intervals. I asked my vet about potentially trying a different medication and she said that she's given me the pain pills she can so does that mean I need to talk to a different vet?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on May 1, 2014 3:53:44 GMT -7
It sounds as though your vet has reached her comfort zone in treating IVDD. If Oscar still is showing signs of pain and your vet will not prescribe the medication necessary to get that pain under control TODAY, then, yes, you should most definitely try to find another vet who is more familiar with IVDD or who is willing to work with you on getting Oscar's pain completely under control. Or arrange for an emergency consult with a Board-certified neurologist, advise that you're going the conservative route and that you just need the correct meds prescribed. Gabapentin works very well along with Tramadol and Methocarbamol can be added to control the muscle spasms that often accompany an IVDD episode. Board-certified neuros (ACVIM) and ortho (ACVS) surgical specialists can be found at University vet teaching hospitals. You can locate others in your area here: www.acvim.org [neuros] online.acvs.org/acvsssa/rflssareferral.query_page?P_VENDOR_TY=VETS [orthos] Dodgerlist Members' vet recommendations - dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-postingIf you need help finding another vet, please let us know where you are and we'll see what we can do. It's most important that this be taken care of today. Healing prayers for Oscar. |
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Post by Cori & Oscar on May 1, 2014 13:52:00 GMT -7
I just talked to my vet again. She said that I can give Oscar pepcid, although she doesn't think he needs it at this time but I do have the go-ahead. She also prescribed him Methocarbamol that I'm currently waiting for to filled at my pharmacy. She doesn't think Gabapentin would be the best thing for Oscar at this time. She also said that I can up the dosage of the▲ tramadol to a whole pill instead of half at a time, granted I have to work up to the dosage, but I have permission to.
On a good note though, Oscar continues to sleep in a ball almost every time he falls asleep.
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Post by Colleen & Beast on May 1, 2014 14:41:16 GMT -7
Hi Cori! I had the same problem in trying to get the Gabapentin for my dog. He was on Tramadol, Methocarbamol and the steroid for about two weeks with no improvement while I visited three different vets. He would yelp whenever I touched him, which then made me emotional. I finally found a vet who was willing to give him Gabapentin for nerve pain and it has made SO SO much positive difference. I now can't get my little guy to calm down he is feeling so good! If you have the means to shop around for another vet(I know it takes a lot of time and money), it will not only help Oscar, but will make YOU feel 100 times better as well Colleen & Beast |
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Post by Hester & Hope+Dashel on May 1, 2014 18:00:16 GMT -7
Yay for ball sleeping!!! Hope did that the other day and it made me so excited!!! Today she's spread out again, so I don't know if she's not feeling well again or what. |
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Vita & Emmie
Helpful Member
Currently graduated for the 3rd time; walking and running!
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Post by Vita & Emmie on May 1, 2014 19:50:02 GMT -7
Hi Cori, I know it is hard but you are being a great advocate for Oscar in getting him the pain relief he needs. If you look in his eyes, you'll see the gratitude there! I hope he's settling okay this evening and can be comfortable.
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Post by Cori & Oscar on May 2, 2014 3:46:28 GMT -7
First morning I've carried Oscar outside and he didn't yip at all!
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Post by Jean & Mimi on May 2, 2014 5:24:37 GMT -7
Yay!!! I am so happy for you No pain makes for happiness here. |
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Vita & Emmie
Helpful Member
Currently graduated for the 3rd time; walking and running!
Posts: 189
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Post by Vita & Emmie on May 3, 2014 15:46:20 GMT -7
That is great news Cori! Keep letting him rest up and giving him his meds. Nature will take care of some of it. And if you feel emotional, take it out on us - don't let Oscar know, he'll get more upset.
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Post by Cori & Oscar on May 3, 2014 17:23:32 GMT -7
Day 2 of no yipping. He's a little slower coming out of the crate now, but I think the increase in meds has him a bit doped up. I'm one happy momma, let me tell you.
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Post by Pauliana on May 3, 2014 20:55:31 GMT -7
What a relief, I am so happy for you and Oscar, Cori!
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Post by Cori & Oscar on May 5, 2014 7:34:15 GMT -7
Oscar seems to have more energy now than before. He barks when the front door opens now and wags his tail so hard, you hear it thunking inside the crate. He listens very well when I'm putting him back in the pen after he goes potty, but he's hesitant because he doesn't want to go in whereas before he would walk in and just lay down. Just thought I'd let you guys know how well my baby boy is doing. Thank you all so much for all your kind words and advice.
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Post by John & Marley on May 5, 2014 7:45:05 GMT -7
Put a treat in the back of his crate so hen he comes back from doing potty - he goes in easy and is rewarded by doing potty.
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