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Post by meaghangood on Mar 29, 2013 17:54:27 GMT -7
Our 2 year old baby Griffin was diagnosed with IVDD 3 days ago. We took immediate action and took him to the ER. He stayed there for 2 nights, and was watched and given medicine. Financially, surgery is not in the cards for us, so we are trying to keep him home with his medicines, where he is comfortable. We also did an accupuncture treatment today, after hearing that this could also work. I guess I am just looking for answers. We are so upset, and confused because we aren't used to him being so helpless.
Facts:
He is still urinating, pooping, eating and drinking.
He has full control of front legs, yet hind legs are using function.
He still has his pain sensors, however can barely control his hind legs.
Please help us understand more.
Questions:
Does home treatment heal?
Acupuncture?
Tips?
Thank you!
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 29, 2013 18:39:23 GMT -7
You are experiencing exactly what Neil and I went through with Tyler almost 9 weeks ago. Yes he can heal with what we call conservative treatment but you have to be committed to 27/7 crate rest for Griffin for 8 weeks to give his disc/discs and spine to heal. Think of it as a cast on a broken leg to limit movement so he can heal. Carry him outside to potty as long as he can still urinate and poop but bring him right back to the crate or recovery suite..You can make crate rest less of a bore by sitting with him, laying with him, moving his crate or ex pen (recovery suite) to the rooms you spend the most time in. I know all the emotions and upset you are going through. I was in tears when we woke up on January 28th and Tyler couldn't move his back legs or potty.. We were both so afraid we were going to lose our precious Tyler, also a Shih Tzu age 3.. To make a long story short he had surgery that day and has recovered far better than we ever imagined.Conservative treatment works too..Many dogs have recovered to walk again or to a life with wheels. Dogs with wheels just pick up where life left off..They don't worry about what can't be, they just keep on being the sweet pets that they are..The important thing is to tell your Griffin that everything is going to be ok..Be positive around him so he won't be scared. Make sure he has a Veterinarian that is well versed in how to treat IVDD.. Above all read and learn all you can about IVDD. Griffin is going to count on you to advocate for him and make sure he is getting the right medici ne. Our hope is that you will take on the duties of self education to
be able to understand the IVDD enemy and take an active roll in working with the
vet, be an integral part of making decisions based on a sound understanding.
As quickly as time permits, begin to devour each of the articles in our Disc
Disease 101 area. Your is going to be dependent on your
abilities.
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmStart with the article entitled "HOWs and
WHYs of Conservative Treatment" which will be your road map for the next 8 weeks
of crate rest.
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/conservative.htmAdd this comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD
on IVDD to your arsenal of educational resources. Friends, family and those who
will be caring for your dog should also watch this DVD; plus don't forget to
order one DVD for your vet www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htm
In order to help you more, could
you please answer these questions?
-- What was the date you saw
the vet and started the all important 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to
potty …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting
or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM)?
--
Is there still currently pain - shivering, shaking, crying when picked up or
moved?
-- What are the exact names of meds currently given, their doses
in mgs and frequencies? Please include the all important stomach protector such
as Pepcid AC.
-- Can your dog move the legs at all or wag the tail due
when you do some happy talk?
-- Can your dog sniff and squat and then
release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up?
Helpful videos with tips on expressing both urine and poop: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm-- Eating and drinking OK?
--
Poops OK - normal color no dark or bright red blood?
The very, very
lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage is necessary for
paralyzed legs during conservative treatment. The information highlighted in
PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk.
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm
Laser light therapy, acupuncture
and electro acupuncture which sends a microcurrent of electricity to and from
acupuncture points (which are really big nerve bundles), can be very beneficial
at helping to re-establish the nerve connections in the body. Any one of these
therapies can be started right away if in your budget... they not only help
relieve pain and inflammation but will kick start nerves to begin regeneration.
Find a holistic vet here:
ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.htmlwww.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices]
I feel
for you and know what you are going through. Tyler sends his love to Griffin, he
knows exactly how he feels.. |
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 29, 2013 18:55:49 GMT -7
Here is a link that shows how to lift and carry Griffin so his back is supported..
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Post by meaghangood on Mar 29, 2013 19:14:49 GMT -7
Hello Pauliana! Thank you for responding to us. We appreciate all the advice/help we can get right now. I will answer all of those questions to the best of my ability.
-We took griffin to the ER on wednesday the 27th, after noticing dragging of hind leg, and shivering from pain. He then stayed there 2 nights under their care/medicine. We brought him home today (3/29) where he is continuing his medicine doses and is on crate rest.
-He still has his pain sensors, however is not showing shivering or crying, probably because of the medicines he is on.
-He is on Tramadol-25 mg dosages. Predinisone 5 mg dosages. Liquid muscle relaxer, and an anti anxiety sedative with the short name of Ace. He is also on a stomach protectant.
-There is no wagging of the tail, also possibly because of medicine..and slight movement of back legs, but can barely support himself or walk.
-He is urinating on his own, but we have to help hold him up.
-He is eating and drinking ok. Drinking more than eating.
We would love any feedback you can provide us with.
Also-how do you keep Tyler still/calm..griffin tends to get bored while laying, and tries to get up and walk around.
thank you so much! Prayers for tyler as well!
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 29, 2013 19:44:06 GMT -7
Since Griffin is on Prednisone it will make him very thirsty. He will need to urinate more often as well.. How often are his medications being given? Does he seem to be in pain before the next dose is given? Tyler has to be continually reminded to slow down.. We carry him upstairs and outside..We put baby gates on the stairs. Thankfully he doesn't try to jump on furniture, never has, but we have pillows in place just in case.. He graduated crate rest almost 3 weeks ago so he is allowed run of the room we are in, under supervision.. When we have to go somewhere, we take him with us in his carrier.. If it's a short run to the grocery store, we leave him in his recovery suite..or his wire crate. He pouts and sighs when he is bored.. Such a character.. We just keep reminding him to slow down. If he gets too wild, we remind him with a little rest in his recovery suite. He likes it in there, and often goes in by himself to take a nap in his safe place. He sleeps in his crate in our bedroom at night and has since he was a pup.. Tyler was sleepy on the medicines and that helped at first but as he got to feeling better it became more of a challenge.. Here is some info on Laser light therapy.. This has proven to be a wonderful therapy that heals.. =========== Laser Light therapy: "Clinicians at UF's Small Animal Hospital began using the procedure routinely after results from a year-long study showed the laser's effectiveness in patients with intervertebral disc disease... The study is the first ever to compare dogs with intervertebral disc disease treated postoperatively with lasers to dogs not treated with lasers, Schubert said. He called the results "revolutionary." [UF 1 yr study] tinyurl.com/78eh4ew============== Laser Light "It’s worth emphasizing that laser therapy does not just accelerate healing; it actually improves repair, regeneration and remodeling of tissue. Post-op complications are reduced. Muscle atrophy can be reversed. Type 1 collagen production yields better tendon and ligament strength and elasticity. There is a positive effect on neurologic function and axonal sprouting. The joint capsule, synovial lining and fluid, and cartilage all benefit. Therefore range of motion, function, flexibility and mobility are all enhanced." snipurl.com/1y20q7 [therapy lasers] Thank you for the prayers for Tyler.. he sends the same to Griffin. |
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Post by meaghangood on Mar 29, 2013 19:55:35 GMT -7
Thanks again! Since he did not have surgery, do you think the recovery is going to work? Griffin has never been a "crate" dog, and slept in bed with us, so it's hard for him to get used to. We just want him to heal, but it's hard to stay positive right now. I just don't understand how resting will help him heal, and how we are supposed to get him to calm down in his crate, we both work 10-5 every day, so we won't be home with him all the time, and this scares me.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 29, 2013 21:31:03 GMT -7
Meaghan, there is no doubt it IS in the cards for Griffin to get back to enjoying family activities after his 8 weeks of recovery suite time. The key is your getting up to speed on how conservative treatment works. It is all laid out for you. Please quickly get the over all picture about just how the meds work, how long it takes for the different phases of healing take. Griffin is going to be depending on your reading skills. Can you go now to this page and begin your study: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmHow much does he weigh? When you have a chance please give us the complete details on his meds with exact names, dose in mg and how often you may give them. Let us know his pain is fully under control dose to dose of Tramadol and the muscle relaxer. Verify for us if Griffin still has bladder control. Are you finding urine leaks in his bedding or does he leak on you when lifted?
The size of his recovery suite need to be only big enough to stand up, turn around and fully stretch out his legs when lying down... there would be no room to walk around in a recovery suite. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty for a full 8 weeks …. No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc. Details on how to do crate rest: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm Ace for some dogs can excite them...does it keep Griffin calm... he just can not be allowed to be rambunctious in his crate...is that what he is doing... like jumping against the side of the crate? Most dogs need some 16-18 hours of sleep per day, people sleep 8-9 hours day. What are they doing in the crate? Laying around and sleeping! That is likely what he'll be doing when you are at work. While he is on Pred he'll need to drink more water and he should be let out to relieve himself every 3-4 hours. Can either of you come home for lunch on a staggered times? If acupuncture is in the budget, it will help with not just pain but also to kick start the nerves that have been damaged to start self healing. Acupuncture can be started right away. Are you using a sling to support his rear and keep his spine aligned at potty times?
 The ONLY PT for a dog with paralyzed legs doing Conservative Treatment is the information highlighted in PINK and red numbers. Do not do the POST-OP video as it is too aggressive for conservative treatment. Here is the information for Griffin..... www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmGive Griffin a big kiss and tell him he's going to be ok, because he WILL be. Because his mom is quickly taking an active roll in his health care by reading, reading everything at www.dodgerslist.com |
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Post by meaghangood on Mar 30, 2013 15:16:17 GMT -7
Quick question.
First of all, i just got home from work and when i came downstairs to see my hubby and griffin, Griffin was wagging his tail! Made me so happy!
Back to my question, he is lieing in his bed in his crate, and he is lieing on his side with this legs stretched in front of him, is this ok? Is there a certain way he should be lieing??
Also--he is urinating on his own, when we take him outside he will pee on his favorite tree, however he has not pooped for us yet. How do we get him to sniff around to poop?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 30, 2013 17:59:04 GMT -7
Meaghan, nothing better than a wagging tail. Griffin is a cutie! He should lie the way he wants in his recovery suite, there is no one certain way.
Please do update us with exact names of meds, the dose and how often you give them. Has Pred been scheduled yet for a taper date?
Tramadol can cause constipation and so can other stomach protectors, so we'll be looking for your med update.
Pumpkin is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. The amount of water in the diet makes all the difference. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with a teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. To firm up the stool add 1 teaspoon pumpkin to kibble and no extra water 1x a day. Note alternatives: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potoato.
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 30, 2013 18:41:38 GMT -7
Hi Meaghan!
Griffin looks much like Tyler.. same coloring! So happy to hear about the wagging tail! Paula gave you lots of great ideas to help Griffin. Take one day at a time and keep learning about IVDD and how to care for Griffin.. The more you know, the better for Griffin.
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Post by meaghangood on Apr 1, 2013 8:51:17 GMT -7
Hello All.
Griffin finally pooped today after 3 days of not going. He sat up in his bed and just started pooping. It was all solid, no liquid which i'm assuming is good. However, you could tell it hurt him very badly, and it took a while to come out, i tried to help as much as i could. Immediately after going to the bathroom, he puked up a pile of food. Does anyone know any explanations to why he puked? Do you think it was because it hurt so bad to poop?
He's been trying to get out of his bed all day, and has been sitting up frequently. I am starting to believe that he thinks he is better, but we are NOT letting him walk/scoot around.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 9:09:18 GMT -7
Meaghan, will you help us, please?
Update us with exact names of meds, the dose in mg and how often you give them. Has Pred been scheduled yet for a taper date? What is the name of his stomach protector?
Tramadol can cause constipation and so can other stomach protectors, so we'll be looking for your med update.
If his stool was too firm that can hurt. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with a teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day.
Note alternatives: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potoato.
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Post by meaghangood on Apr 1, 2013 10:06:56 GMT -7
Hi Paula! Thank you for the quick response!
Here is Griff's Med Schedule:
Pred. 5 mg every 12 hours.
Meth. every 8 hours (Liquid muscle relaxer)
Tramadol. 1/2 tab every 8-12 hours
Omeprazole-1 tab every 24 hours
Ace. 1 tab 8 hours as needed.
We have been tracking the exact times we are giving him his medicine. He has been doing GREAT, wagging tail, showing happiness, even trying to move his legs during potty time (although we stop the movement from him and move him by ourselves).
Today he has been "gagging" alot, kind of like a loud cough like something is stuck.
Then like i said, he has his first bowel movement, which looked extremely painful, and slow. Then right after that he puked up 2 piles of food, as well as some noodles (which we have been putting his meds in). For the most part he has been sleeping now, but will occasionally wake up to do the "coughing" thing.
Thank you for your help.
p.s he got out of his bed this morning and walked about 13 feet to the steps when i ran upstairs to use the potty this morning, he may be in pain from that, so i canceled his accupuncture appt. for today, is that a good idea?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 10:29:16 GMT -7
How is it possible that Griffin got out of his bed and walked 13 feet when you left to go to the bathroom yourself? Is he not inside his recovery suite (ex-pen, crate, baby crib, pack N play) at all times unless you have him under eye ball to eye ball supervision AND with a harness and leash to control his speed?
It sounds like you are not doing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc.
Let us and your vet know IF you are seeing any of these signs of pain -- shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head, tight hard tummy. What has your vet said about the gagging?
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Post by meaghangood on Apr 1, 2013 10:46:25 GMT -7
Griffin has NEVER been crate trained. We are working very hard to keep him calm and to stop him from trying to jump around and chew himself out of the ex-pen. My husband is at work today, so it's just me here trying to watch Griffin. He was sleeping in his bed and i ran upstairs for literally one minute.
Other than this one episode we DO have him on 100% REST, not allowing him to move except for to go potty.
He has only peed outside, so today when he had a bowel movement he sat up and just tried to do it in his bed. He is not showing any other signs of pain. He is currently sleeping.
Was just wondering if anyone else had suggestions on his puking. Didn't mean to upset you.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 1, 2013 15:25:10 GMT -7
Hi Meaghan,
Sorry to hear Griffin is having coughing and gagging. Have you spoken with the Vet about this?
It is so hard for dogs that haven't been crate trained to accept being in the crate but perhaps you can try a pack and play playpen.. or a Pet stroller so he can be wheeled from room to room. They are elevated so he can have more of a view.. Tyler was trained from Puppy hood to sleep in his crate at night and he never had to be put in there, he went in on his own. He views it has his den. We never punished him by putting him in his crate. We kept it a positive experience. There are ways to make being enclosed bearable. Perhaps putting a cover over part of the crate to make it feel like a den.. Or putting his favorite toys in there or making it so comfy he can't resist. Or using an alternative such as the ones mentioned above. It would be awful to lose all the healing that's been gained just because someone rang the doorbell and Griffin ran to the door and made his disc episode worse.. Dogs always do the unexpected.
For now try to find something besides noodles to put his medications in. Noodles have wheat in them among other things..and wheat can be an allergen for some pets. Tyler is on a grain free diet and he hasn't snorted or had his reverse sneezing or itching episodes since.
We had to try many things to get his meds into him. Lunch meat worked the best.. Have one with the pill in it and another without .. Give the one without first and he will be so excited to get the next piece of lunchmeat (with the meds) he will take it right down. It helps to not let him see what you are doing when you are putting the pills in the lunchmeat. They get suspicious of what you are up to.
Keep us posted on how Griffin is doing..
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Post by meaghangood on Apr 1, 2013 15:32:45 GMT -7
Thank you for the advice Pauliana!
We made a checkup appt. for him tomorrow because he puked again, dark brown liquid, afraid it's blood.....
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 1, 2013 15:41:40 GMT -7
Keep a close watch.. If it's blood I would considerate that an Emergency! Do you have an ER vet in your area. he should go there tonight!
Worried,
Pauliana
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Post by meaghangood on Apr 1, 2013 16:25:16 GMT -7
We called the Emergency vet that he stayed at for the 2 nights when he first was diagnosed last week. Informed them that he hasn't really been eating, but puked..they didn't sound too worried and said that medicines could cause him to have a reaction, and to schedule a check up appt. with his primary vet! I will let you know the outcome!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,928
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 1, 2013 17:04:11 GMT -7
Meaghan, Griffin is showing you very classic signs of what Prednisone and other steroids can do to the GI tract. Dogs have died from it when owners have not been active in getting help. Not eating, vomit and then if there was blood in the vomit is the sign of too much stomach acids.... ulceration and perhaps bleeding ulcers.
Get to the vet asap today. Get Pepcid AC from your grocery store asap and then keep the vet in the loop.. we give approx 13-20lbs doxies 5MG Pepcid AC (generic name is Famotidine) 30 mins prior to steroid. PLUS get another protector that works in a different way than either Pepcid AC or Omeprazole.... called sucralfate which is an Rx item.
We have heard that for some dogs Omeprazole is not stomach protection enough.
Now is the time to be a strong advocate for Griffin's needs and not be put off by any one.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 1, 2013 17:07:34 GMT -7
Did you tell them the vomit looked like blood? Griffin is on Prednisone and that can cause Ulcers, stomach bleeding.. or a perforated stomach. Once dogs are vomiting blood that can go downhill very fast.. Dogs don't speak up at first signs of trouble like a person would. By the time we notice black or red blood in the stools, things can quickly go from bleeding ulcers to a life threatening perforated stomach. We ask that all members read about each med their dog is on or may take as a safety measure. This directory is in alpha order: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlwww.dodgerslist.com/neurocorner2/stomachProtection.htm"Gastrointestinal Disorders: Prednisone for dogs is known to cause gastrointestinal problems like diarrhea, vomiting, stomach ulcers, and general gastrointestinal discomfort." www.buzzle.com/articles/prednisone-side-effects-in-dogs.html North Carolina U. recognizes the high incidence of GI irritation in dogs with disc problems. The reasons are that pain and body changes are stresses. Just as humans can experience ulcers when under stress, dogs can also. NCU and 11+ hospitals working with NCU prescribe a GI protectant. Dogs presented to NCU with IVDD often develop GI upset whether they are given steroid medications or not. www.cvm.ncsu.edu/vhc/tc/clinical_services/neuro/acute_disc.htmlCytoprotective agents include antacids and SUCRALFATE. .... SUCRALFATE (dogs: 0.5-1 g, PO, bid-tid; cats: 0.25 g, PO, bid-tid) forms a complex with proteinaceous exudates that adheres to the ulcer, providing a protective barrier to the penetration of acid. It also stimulates prostaglandin production, increases mucus production and mucosal turnover, inactivates pepsin, and absorbs bile acids. Sucralfate is as effective as H2-receptor antagonists in promoting healing of ulcers in people. www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23309.htmPauliana |
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