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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 17, 2014 12:40:28 GMT -7
Hi, I'm new here and looking for help  My beagle Star was diagnosed with IVDD last Thursday. We are doing conservative treatment because my husband and I are on a fixed income and unfortunately can't afford surgery. Star's on Prednisolone and Tramadol. She was on Valium too, but she had an adverse reaction to it so the vet recommended we stop it. My question or issue is I can't physically carry her out to potty. I've been using a leash (and walking her down the ramp my sweet husband built for her) and then straight back to the crate when she's done. She weighs 53 lbs. She's not overly obese, really, but she could stand to lose some weight and has lost some since her diagnosis. Do any of you have any suggestions on what I can do to keep her from walking to and from the potty site? I would really appreciate it. Seeing her in so much pain is just killing me. Thank you. |
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Post by John & Marley on Apr 17, 2014 12:59:20 GMT -7
Because of her size you can try getting wheels for your crate and rolling her out ( however these wheels tend to be on the small size and could get stuck on carpets, runners door jams with constant moving - especially a dog on meds ) and to the ramp but that would make you bend over a lot pushing it. Or invest in a pet stroller so you can roll her out easily and then lift her to go potty , wheels on these are much larger and roll over obstacles quite easily - then you could take your dog outside around the block to prevent boredom while being under crate rest.
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 17, 2014 13:06:59 GMT -7
I haven't even thought about a stroller! And you're right - great for outside too! She just wants to stand there whenever we go out - hates the crate! She's doing really good walking, only dragging her legs a little during the day, but at night I can tell she's hurting again and I'm afraid it's from the walking she gets when she goes potty.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 17, 2014 21:04:11 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. First thing to know is that it IS in the cards for your dog to get back to enjoying life after recovering. With this disease self education is critical not just so you make sure the right things are being done for the best recovery but for your own emotions. The unknown is simply a scary place. Get ready to fight this disease now and in the future by knowing all things IVDD. There is no better place to start than on our main web page with "Overview: the essentials" and then read all you can as soon as possible. Are you ready? Here's the link www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm Add this comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD to your arsenal of educational resources. Friends, family and those who will be caring for your dog should also watch this DVD www.dodgerslist.com/store/DVDorder.htm Tape this flyer to your fridge so the whole family knows what things are emergencies: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdfIn order to help you more, could you please answer these questions? ► What is your name? ► Was it April 10th you saw the vet and started the all important 100% STRICT crate rest for 8 weeks, 24/7 only out to potty for this current disc episode? …. STRICT means No laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM)? www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htmwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm► Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy? ► I see she is taking Prednisolone and Tramadol, what are their doses in mg's and times per day given? What was the start dose if a steroid, date of taper? Please include the all important stomach protector such as Pepcid AC. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory. Since she is hurting at night, I would discuss adjusting the pain medications with her Vet right away so she is pain free from dose to dose. Have lots of patience while she heals but have no patience at all with pain. Pain hinders healing and it's so hard on her and on you too. Here is more info on the medications used for IVDD. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm► Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? ► Eating and drinking OK? Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? ► If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. The idea of the stroller is a great one.. Just make sure to only use it over flat surfaces..And ease it very carefully over the door way to take her outside.. She shouldn't walk any more than a very few steps and no dragging around. Sending healing thoughts and prayers.. |
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 18, 2014 7:18:26 GMT -7
Hi Pauliana, my name is Cristi. Actually, the 10th is when we brought her home from the vet and started the crate confinement. She had been to the vet 2 other times before that in the previous week and he wasn't sure what was wrong with her until the third time. He kept her over night for 3 nights before allowing us to bring her home. I've been keeping her in the crate since we brought her home except to use the bathroom. Normal bowel movements and urination, just not as much as before because she's not eating as much - not that she doesn't WANT too, but because we're trying to get her to lose a few pounds. She does great in the mornings and at lunch when I go home (I work 8-5) wags her tail and loves me, but by about 6 pm she starts shivering and panting and acting like she's in pain. She won't even let me pet her head without whining. I called the vet this morning and we're adjusting her pain medicine today. I don't have the dosages with me because I'm at work, but will write them down when I go home at lunch.
53 lbs
Tramadol is 1 1/2 pills every 8 hours
prednisolone was twice a day until yesterday. Today starts once/day.
I guess that's the taper? The vet wants me to add back in the valium in the afternoons too to see if that will help with her pain at night. I called back about the Pepcid and am waiting for him to call me back.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 18, 2014 8:10:08 GMT -7
Cristi, since there are still signs of pain, then it is clearly NOT the time to start a taper of Pred. Pred is the med that works on getting painful swelling down. That may take 7-30 days to accomplish. It is prudent to try a taper when the vet assumes all the pain is gone as that is the only way to know for sure. Of course there is no need to start a test taper today, there is still observable pain. You need to call the vet, let him know of the pain, so that pred can stay up at the anti-inflammatory dose ofr a little longer before trying a test taper. Background reading to understand the expectations of Pred, tapers, etc. : www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm If methocarbamol and/or gabapentin have not been added to the "adjustments" do your background reading and then strongly discuss getting the typical pain meds on board. There can be no patience with pain. Once on the right combo of pain meds, the right dose in mgs and the right frequency has been found, then pain will be in control in one hour and stay that way dose to dose. Now is not the time to be on a diet. Star's body has many repair jobs to do and full nutrition is needed. After off all meds & crate rest is over then it will be safe to do more activity, you can feed a little less. Over the course of several months weight will come off. More background reading: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/nutritionhealing.htmYou have a challenge with a 53 lbs dog than we have with our small dogs that can be carried to and from the potty place. You may need to think outside the box in doing everything possible to keep potty time down to only a very, very few footsteps. -- add an ex-pen extension area to the recovery suite. Put down a pee pad with some old urine smell on it. Perhaps Star will accept peeing on the pad needing only to take one or two steps out of the recovery suite on to the pad? -- Put some dirt, astro turf on your outdoor deck. Keep her recovery suite near the sliding glass door so that Star only needs to take the fewest, minimal amount of steps to get to the dirt on the deck. Let us know: -- that additional pain meds have been added to the Tramadol. -- The stomach protector Pauliana mentioned is now on board. Pepcid AC (famotidine) -- That Pred is NOT going to be tapered today. What the orginal Pred dose is in mgs @ 2x/day. -- How you are doing with limited footsteps at potty time. Never give up, stay focused, stay postitive and stay strong! You and Star will get through this bump in the road of life. |
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 18, 2014 10:40:09 GMT -7
Hi Paula and thank you! Her medications are as follows: Valium 5 mgs once/day Tramadol 50 mgs - 3 pills every 8 hours Prednisone 20 mgs twice/day Pepcid - 10 mgs before Prednisone
We're not going to taper off the pred and have increased the ▲ tramadol and added back the valium. I'm supposed to see how she does tonight and call the vet back in the morning. He's been really great and understanding even though I know I'm driving him crazy with all the calling and questions. My husband and I are going to put our heads together this evening and see what else we can do as far as bringing the back yard closer to her. Thank you so much for the support and ideas and the PRAYERS. Hopefully with the increase in meds she'll do better this evening.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 18, 2014 11:03:08 GMT -7
For some dogs the valium does help to relieve the kind of pain stemming from muscle contractions/spasms. It has a short half life of about 5 hours so a 2x a day dose may be needed.
If she seems to have a reaction to Valium (for some dogs it wires the UP rather than relax) ... do know that methocarbambol does a good job too and may be the alternative to provide full pain control. Pain is not a one size fits all deal, can take good communications with the vet to get it just right for Star. Glad you and your vet are a team and on it for Star.
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 18, 2014 11:13:29 GMT -7
I asked him about that methocarbamol and he said it is an option if I want to try it - he said I can pick some up, but since I have some Valium left over from last week we're going to try that today at least. The only thing I really noticed about the Valium that was odd is she would start licking a lot. She would lick herself and the bars on the crate. Is that a sign of the wiring up?
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 19, 2014 17:46:38 GMT -7
Has anyone used tussigon? That's another med my vet has prescribed. Is it ok to use with the others?
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Sabrina
Helpful Member 
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471 
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Post by Sabrina on Apr 19, 2014 20:03:42 GMT -7
Hi Cristi, I'm Sabrina. So sorry to hear of Star's disc episode, but I'm so glad you've found Dodger'sList and are working with your vet to get Star the care she needs! Is Star still showing any signs of pain, or is her pain fully controlled dose to dose? I've never had either Valium or Tussigon prescribed for my dog, so I am not familiar with their use during a disc episode. Is Star still licking herself excessively? This is definitely something I'd speak with your vet about. With a disc episode, there is the possibility of neuropathic pain, and the sign of that is excessive licking/chewing of any part of the body. If that is what is going on, then she needs an e-collar (rolled up towel, etc) to prevent her chewing and damaging herself, and the rx drug Gabapentin to relieve that nerve pain. If it is the Valium that is making her lick herself excessively, that could make it difficult to tell if Star is having/developing neuropathic pain. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/neuropathy.pdfHere's a great sign to print out and put on the fridge so that you know what signs mean that Star needs vet attention asap: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/FridgeInfo81907.pdfFor what purpose did the vet prescribe the Tussigon? (Judging by my google search, it appears to be used in cases of Kennel Cough?) It is always good for us as owners to discuss all meds with the vet, and also to research them on our own. Here are some great sites: Useful Resources to Help Screen for Potential Drug Interactions www.drugs.com/drug-interactions [interaction checker] reference.medscape.com/drug-interactioncheckerPubMed - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed Can be used to search for both veterinary and human drug studies veterinary-help.com/ [gives doses] www.vasg.org/alphabetical_drug_summaries.htmwww.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htmlwww.vasg.org/pdfs/NEWER%20OPTIONS%20FOR%20CHRONIC%20PAIN%20MANAGEMENT.pdf [doses & good info] ))Hugs!(( |
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 19, 2014 20:37:17 GMT -7
Hi Cristi, Did your Vet say why he was prescribing Tussigon? It is Hydrocodone and there are major drug interactions with it and Tramadol and a moderate drug interaction with Valium. Ask your Vet why he wants Star to take it. hydrocodone ↔ tramadol Applies to:Tussigon (homatropine/hydrocodone) and tramadol "Ask your doctor before using Hydrocodone and Tramadol together. Using these medications together can increase your risk of seizures, breathing problems, and other side effects. If your doctor prescribes these medications together, you may need a dose adjustment or special tests to safely take both medications." From Drugs.com It is used for cough suppression, is Star coughing or does he have another purpose for using it? More info about Tussigon: www.vetinfo.com/hydrocodone-side-effects-in-dogs.html |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 20, 2014 8:36:26 GMT -7
Cristi, what is the reason your vet gave for not using a pain med that targets nerve pain, gabapentin? Vets are finding very good success with pain control as gabapentin works synergistically with tramadol. What was the reason to prescribe a pain med that targets the cough centers of the brain (Tussigon)?
Since Star has already had an adverse reaction to Valium, why not try methocarbamol now if there is still not full pain control?
Since upping the dose of Tramadol, are you still seeing signs of pain? What do you observe.... pain nearing next dose, pain after moving... ?
53 lbs
Valium 5 mgs once/day
Tramadol 50 mgs - 3 pills every 8 hours
Prednisone as of 4/18: 20 mgs twice/day
Pepcid - 10 mgs before Prednisone
Tussigon ?
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 21, 2014 11:13:13 GMT -7
My husband had picked up the medicine for Star - the Tussigon was for another dog. We called before I gave it to her, thank goodness we were paying attention to the medicines! We haven't talked about gabapentin, but it's on my list now if anything changes. After upping the medicine, I really noticed an improvement yesterday - she went the whole day pain free! Yay! This morning was awesome - she was wagging her tale and even leaned her head against mine like she used too sniff-sniff |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 21, 2014 12:22:27 GMT -7
Oh my how good that you were being a good at home nurse to double check meds before giving that Tussigon. This is good news that doing an increased dose of tramadol is doing the trick to having Star back to her normal loving and happy self.
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 22, 2014 10:00:54 GMT -7
Last night was a little shaky. We had stray dog that was wandering around our fence while Star was going potty and she got worked up. By the time I got her back to the crate she was whining and trembling  She seems to be better now, but she has torn up her bed in the crate. Foam everywhere. She had even tried to eat her water bowl - it's one of those hard plastic ones that mount inside the crate. Any ideas on how to keep from eating the bed and bowl? I'm going broke on fleece blankets and egg foam |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 22, 2014 11:34:50 GMT -7
Star needs help in being able to relax in her recovery suite. Better to have the edge taken off, than for her to damage an early healing disc with so much movement of ripping everything apart. For some dogs valium does not reduce anxiety, does not calm them, but instead does the opposite. Is Star still on Valium? If there is pain discuss swapping out valium for methocarbamol to deal with pain stemming from muscle spasms with this disc problem. In other words eliminate the valium variable. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php |
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 23, 2014 11:14:53 GMT -7
Are ups and downs normal? I get so excited and so relieved when she's feeling good, like this morning she was so happy wagging her tail, no pain at all, but then when I went home at lunch it was obvious she was in pain again. This is an emotional roller coaster.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 23, 2014 12:09:07 GMT -7
Ups and downs are not normal... healing should be step by step going forward. Going backwards (downs) could be related to several things:
1. the pain meds are not yet right
2. there has been a reduction of Pred, the med that reduces swelling. Thus pain shows it is not time for a taper
3. there has been too much movement and the early healing disc got torn. Tearing causes initial pain itself, then as swelling in creases pain comes from the inflammation.
Your vet needs to know there is pain surfacing before the next dose of pain meds at lunch time. You need to tell him of the excessive movement she was doing ripping up things. If it is assumed the early healing disc had torn some, then crate rest would start all over again. Conservative treatment is dedicated to giving time for the disc to heal.
Let us know what your vet says. Remember he still has much room to move up in dose on Tramadol, could swap Valium for methocarbamol if you believe Valium is causing Star to be wired and he could also add in a 3rd pain reliever.... gabapentin.
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 24, 2014 8:51:02 GMT -7
Spoke with the vet this morning and he increased the valium and prescribed gabapentin. During the night Star chewed her water bowl completely off the crate and her gums were bleeding. The vet said the gabapentin will help with the chewing? I'm supposed to watch her close tonight and call back first thing in the morning. Keep your fingers crossed!
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Post by Sherry Layman on Apr 24, 2014 9:09:02 GMT -7
I know this is frustrating, it's hard but it's so very important that you educate yourself on the dosing ranges, action, and purpose of all the drugs your vet prescribes as well as the ones that are commonly used but your dog may not be taking yet. Our dogs have no voice of their own, we are their voice to the vet. We must be intelligent, informed and interactive participants in their care.
It sounds to me like the valium causes Star to become more hyper rather than relaxing her. Valium can be effective for a couple of reasons, as a muscle relaxant and also a calming agent. But it is not uncommon for some medications to have opposite effects. In this case it seems that is what is happening with the valium, she is not relaxing but rather becoming hyperactive. I would really encourage you to explain to your vet that with use of the valium Star seems to become more agitated and request that methocarbamol be used instead. The methocarbamol is a muscle relaxant and will help with pain control but will not cause the hyperactivity.
The gabapentin helps with a different kind of chewing. Some dogs get very strange and uncomfortable even very painful nerve symptoms in their legs. This can range from a tingle such as when you fall asleep on your hand to more severe pain. Dogs with this type of pain often lick and even chew on their feet and legs trying to relieve the discomfort. I saw one mention of Star licking her feet but it seemed to be in conjunction with hyperactivity in general. If you've noticed it consistently and I missed it I apologize for misunderstanding. But the gabapentin will not stop Star from chewing up her bedding, water bowl, etc. That behavior is more related to hyperactivity. Valium being a sedative it is also possible that while on it she is "hallucinating" for lack of better description. Humans that take this medication can have altered mental states which in a dog could result in the behavior you see in Star...agitation. Increasing the valium is likely to increase this behavior, the gabapentin will not combat the effect. Having said that, I would not stop the gabapentin as it is a great pain control medication. The valium seems to be the issue here.
Hang in there and keep reading and becoming informed so you can best speak for Star. I know it's a lot of information during an emotional experience. Read what applies to you in the moment to help reduce the amount of information you have to take in right now. But do read and educate yourself so you can be an informed and educated advocate for Star.
Please let us know how it goes on the new meds but do not hesitate to contact your vet to change the medications.
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 29, 2014 10:32:54 GMT -7
Just an update, Star is doing so much better. The vet increased her ▲ Prednisone last Friday as well as prescribed the gabapentin. She's not in any more pain. The only problem is since she's feeling better she definitely does not want to stay in the crate. We figured out that she was licking the crate so much because she was trying to figure out how to release the latches (we set up a camera). We leave classical music playing for her when we are not home and have a comfort zone diffuser plugged in next to her crate. Thank you so much for all of your help and support! So happy we're finally on the right road to recovery! |
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Apr 29, 2014 12:32:20 GMT -7
Cristi, glad Star is now able to heal pain free. I know it gives you great relief as well To keep her calm, have you tried any of the calming suggestions Paula provided? Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html--Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,611
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 30, 2014 7:20:10 GMT -7
Good news on pain being in control. Had pred been on a taper 4/23 to account for the pain? Can you bring her med list up to date:
53 lbs
Valium 5 mgs 1x/day as needed
Tramadol 50 mgs - 3 pills 3x/day
Prednisone 4/18- 5 day course: 20 mgs twice/day; 4/25 increased to 30mgs, 2x/day
Pepcid - 10 mgs before Prednisone
Gabapentin - 100mgs; 2x/day
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Post by Cristi & Star on Apr 30, 2014 7:36:44 GMT -7
It has made such a huge difference! There was a bulge on the left side of her back and it has been steadily shrinking since Friday.
Yes, we had started a taper and the pain was worse so the vet increased the
Prednisone on Friday, the 25th to 30 mgs twice/day and we haven't started a taper yet.
Tramadol is still 50 mgs, 3 pills every 8 hours,
Pepcid 10 mgs before pred,
Gabapentin 100 mgs twice/day,
Valium as needed.
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My beagle Star was diagnosed with IVDD last Thursday. We are doing conservative treatment because my husband and I are on a fixed income and unfortunately can't afford surgery. Star's on Prednisolone and Tramadol. She was on Valium too, but she had an adverse reaction to it so the vet recommended we stop it. My question or issue is I can't physically carry her out to potty. I've been using a leash (and walking her down the ramp my sweet husband built for her) and then straight back to the crate when she's done. She weighs 53 lbs. She's not overly obese, really, but she could stand to lose some weight and has lost some since her diagnosis. Do any of you have any suggestions on what I can do to keep her from walking to and from the potty site? I would really appreciate it. Seeing her in so much pain is just killing me. Thank you.
She seems to be better now, but she has torn up her bed in the crate. Foam everywhere. She had even tried to eat her water bowl - it's one of those hard plastic ones that mount inside the crate. Any ideas on how to keep from eating the bed and bowl? I'm going broke on fleece blankets and egg foam 
