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Post by Nick & Charlie on Apr 8, 2014 16:11:16 GMT -7
I can't express how happy and relieved I am to find this community. I have a 4 year old male Miniature Dachshund named Charlie, who was diagnosed with a herniated disc in his back on Monday by our local vet. Sunday, after taking him upstairs after a walk, let out a yelp randomly while walking through the hallway. He immediately went under the bed and hid. We pulled him out from under the bed and he seemed really spooked. I called him from a distance to see if he was hurt and he seemed to walk fine without issue. We were leaving for a friends house and took him with us. He didn't do his usual exploring and just kind of moped around the room and laid in his bed. We planned to take him to the vet the next morning just to be sure.
The next morning, I was going to take him out for a walk and he seemed hesitant to get off the bed. So I picked him up and put his leash on and carried him downstairs. When I put him down he couldn't use his legs very well and I knew something was immediately wrong. I picked him up and rushed him to the vet with my wife. The vet told us he has a herniated disc and told us the two options. Surgery or crate rest, we chose the latter due to not being able to afford the expensive surgery. I really want to do everything right to ensure his comfort and speedy recovery. We brought him home and laying in his dog bed stayed with him. He didn't even try to move out of the bed and it seemed his pain meds were taking effect. The vet wasn't specific on the entire crate rest regimen and I took him out later that afternoon to go to the bathroom. He peed a little bit, but didn't poop. We didn't let him walk whatsoever.
This morning, we tried placing pads in the bathroom of our apartment to hopefully make it easier for him to go to the bathroom, but he didn't take to it. He never goes to the bathroom indoors, so I suspect he thinks he will get in trouble. The doctor said she was able to express his bladder and he ended up pooping a little in his crate. We are really worried how we will be able to set up a bathroom schedule with him and how to approach it. Today, it's been complete crate rest and he is not let out whatsoever and that is the plan for the next 6-8 weeks unfortunately. They put together a back brace for him using a leg splint for a larger dog and gauze tape. He looks like he's being shot into space. His tail wags and he can use his legs a little if given assistance.
Here's what has been prescribed by the vet:
12lbs
Tramadol 25mg (half a 50mg tab) every 8-12 hours
Deramaxx 12mg (half a 25mg tab) every 24 hours
Methocarbamol 250mg every 12 hours
I should also note he is 12lbs.
I got home this evening and he isn't drinking any water, although he did have a few gulps this morning and ate most of his food. I hold the bowls up to him so he doesn't have to bend at all. He will eat treats without issue though, we use them to give him his medication.
Sorry for the long winded description, I just wanted to give as much information as possible. I would really like to know how to work with him on going to the bathroom as I fear from doing any damage to him. Also, is the not drinking any water just due to the stress he's under?
Thank you so much in advance and all of the information given in these threads. We just want our little boy to feel better and get back to his normal happy self. If I can provide anything else, please let me know.
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 8, 2014 19:28:41 GMT -7
Nick, welcome! We are glad you found us! This Forum is all about taking action, it is the "doing" that matters — are you ready to start your IVDD self education program? Here's the page covering the type of information it takes to become a savvy medical advocate and laid out to allow you go fast as you possibly can. For your bookmarks: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmWhile you working to the goal of "Savvy IVDD advocate" we want to help get things right ASAP for Charlie. So I have a some comments and additional information we need from you. -- Are you now doing 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 and intended for 8 weeks? Just so we are on the same page that would mean no laps, no couch, no sleeping in bed with you, no meandering, scooting or dragging around during potty times. No baths, no chiro (aka VOM). In other words do everything you can to limit the vertebrae in the back from moving and putting pressure on the bad disc.
The kind of details you'll want to read on doing crate rest to ensure the best recovery in this document:
The purpose of crate rest is to act as a cast of sorts to let the disc heal… only limited movement of STRICT crate rest allows that to happen…there are no meds to heal a disc. Immediate neuro improvement may or may not come during the 8 weeks of crate rest… as nerves may take more than 8 weeks to heal. -- Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant/slow to move head or body, tight hard tummy? Thank you so much for the details in your med list. Because tramadol is short acting often it needs to be given promptly every 8 hours. Have no patience with pain. If you see any hint of pain, your vet needs to know to get full pain control dose to dose. -- Stomach protections Anti-inflammatories can increase GI tract damage. Phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason my dog may not take Pepcid?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in stomach protection by giving doxies 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) 30 minutes before the anti-inflammatory, Deramaxx and thereafter every 12 hours. This directory very good for learning about each of your dog's meds: www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.htm -- Not eating or drinking is a red flag sign of probably Deramaxx problems which can progress to runny poop, bleeding ulcers. So let us know you have Pepcid AC on board tonight after reading about it. If Charlie has no heart or liver issues, then keep your vet in the loop in the AM. -- Currently can Charlie wobbly walk? move the legs at all? Can he wag the tail when you do some happy talk? Keep in mind the very, very lightest least aggressive range of motion and leg massage will be necessary for paralyzed legs during conservative treatment once off all pain meds and no more signs of pain The information highlighted in PINK pertains to a dog who can't walk . www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm-- Did you specifically get a hands on expressing lesson. Sounds like the vet who expressed him felt he had no bladder control? The only way for us humans to know if there is bladder control is with the sniff and pee test. Carry outdoors, set on an old pee spot to sniff it. See if urine is then released. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. If urine comes out after sniffing, he has bladder control and no need of expressing. Let us know the details of what you observe at potty time. If he leaks on you when lifted or you find urine leaks in bedding, then first reviewing this video will help you get more out of a lesson for urine and for poop. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm-- If there is pain or neuro diminishment, dogs can benefit greatly with acupuncture or laser light therapy. These therapies can be be started right away to help relieve pain and to also to kick start energy production in nerve cells to sprout. So if this therapy is in your budget, seek out a holistic vet. ahvma.org/Widgets/FindVet.html www.serenityvetacupuncture.com/index.php/faq_/ [one vet's overview/prices] Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs. We do not see vets using back braces for conservative treatment. It is the crate that limits movement. The recovery suite should only be large enough to stand up, turn around and when lying down to fully stretch out his legs. Consider these details about back braces: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/826/back-bracesWhen you lift him be sure to support both ends and keep the back horizontal to the ground.
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Post by Nick & Charlie on Apr 9, 2014 6:22:08 GMT -7
Paula, thank you so much for your reply and great information.
Yes, he is 100% crate rest. He is not being let out, except to try and get him to go to the bathroom. My wife was able to express his bladder this morning on the pee pad in the bathroom, so hopefully with that smell there he will give it a shot.
Last night he seemed pretty good as far as pain goes. He wasn't trembling any longer and we ended up taking him out. His tail is no longer wagging and his rear legs aren't moving any longer. I am hoping we can change that quickly as I see that can go away and come back.
I appreciate the advice and we will start him on the Pepcid today. We are taking him to our normal vet this afternoon to get her opinion. She was out and her office was closed while all this was happening, so we had to go to another office. We had a good vet, but it doesnt hurt to get another opinion as I see it.
It seems right now he does have bladder control. Too much control! We are having issues getting him to poop, I am not sure how to approach that. a sling pushes on his stomach and what not, so I believe it's uncomfortable for him. I take him to the mat and hold his legs and wait and wait and wait. It's just unnatural for him that way so I don't think he knows what I want him to do.
We looked into laser and acupuncture and would like to move forward with that, but it runs around $70 a visit and that's twice a week. We are working it out to see if we can afford that.
The doctor put the back brace on him because he was hunched over in a corner of his crate. They were looking to have him lay straightened out.
Paula, thanks again for the reply. You have been most helpful!!
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Apr 9, 2014 7:38:47 GMT -7
Nick, you mention that his tail is no longer wagging and that he is no longer trying to use his rear legs. This is a sign of neurological reduction. Please contact your vet as soon as possible. Here is a good chart to help you understand how nerve function regenerates. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmWe are anxiously awaiting to hear what your vet says. |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 9, 2014 7:59:25 GMT -7
Please get a call into your regular vet asap this morning to advise of the nerve deterioraton — hours matter with spinal cord damage. The vet may wish to take aggressive action to try and save the increased nerve damage you report. You will need to have some background reading under your belt to understand the risks of switching from Dermaxxx (NSAID) to the most powerful of the anti-inflammatories, the steroid class. If it is deemed an emergency and to forgo the 4-7 day washout, then two stomach protectors need to be on board (Pepcid AC plus sucralfate) Background readings: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmwww.marvistavet.com/html/sucralfate.htmlIf he can no longer wag his tail specifically due to your doing some happy talk or seeing a treat coming, then he does not have bladder control nor bowel control. You can express for poop. You'll learn how to get a sense of his poop schedule and a video on how to express for poop. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm#poopAs damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. As nerves heal they typically self heal in the reverse order of damage. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle 5. Legs do not work (paralysis, dog is down) 6. Bladder control is lost 7. Tail wagging with joy is lost <--- Charlie8. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function. Only correctly identified by a neuro or ortho surgeon. Tramadol can cause constipation. Pumpkin is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. The amount of water in the diet makes all the difference. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with a teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. To firm up the stool add 1 teaspoon pumpkin to kibble and no extra water 1x a day. Note alternatives: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potoato. To keep the health of bladder tone and to prevent urinary tract infection, expressing the bladder needs to be done so that there is no overflowing of urine. That might mean you need to express every 3-4 hours while you are learning to be proficient in this new skill. When you can fully void his bladder expressing can move easily to every 4-6 and a max of 8 hours. When a person gets a stiff painful neck, we hold it in a position that is least painful. When a dog has a painful back they arch to hold it in the least painful position. I hope you have since taken this uneducated idea of that splint off! When pain meds are correctly prescribed Charlie's pain and his learned response to avoid pain will have him relaxing and no longer arching. Let Charlie lie the way he wants to. It is rambunctious behavior such as jumping against the side of the crate, etc, that can not be permitted. As long as he is sitting, lying quietly, curled up sleeping, he is doing the right thing. A rice sock to rest his head on or lean against would be an comforting addition to his recovery suite. Fill a sock with 1-2 cups of dry rice. Knot the end. Microwave for 1-2 minutes. Test in crook of your arm for warm not hot temperature. Wrap in a towel so it's not too hot for the skin and place in crate. Let your dog snuggle against when you are present to supervise in case your dog has a desire to munch on the warm rice. Note: human heating pads can get too hot burning skin on an IVDD dog. Snuggle Safe is a commercial product that will keep warm the whole night. My Clark get very happy as he sees me bring him a warm SnuggleSafe www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=E53AAF66-347A-4789-AFCC-5D6FA77ED8B6&item=30459&ccd=IFP003&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_content=30459  Please do keep us updated on the vet visit, hopefully this am.
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Post by Nick & Charlie on Apr 9, 2014 10:35:17 GMT -7
We just returned from the vet visit and it has really put our minds at ease. The very first thing she did was remove the brace for the same reasons stated above.
She told us if she had made the initial diagnosis, she would have chosen steroid treatment, but said the current medications are fine for now. It is I guess very hard to make a switch once started, but assured us we will be fine for the moment. She gave us some calorie packed wet food to give him and a couple syringes to give him water and food if he will not eat or drink when prompted.
She did a couple tests and determined he still has feeling in his legs, one more than the other. But it is a good sign. When I showed up to meet my wife at the vet, he seemed very alert and not in as much pain. She said we were doing really well with him, his crate setup was great, and showed us how to help him go to the bathroom.
We will try that heated pillow with rice tonight and use it until the snuggle safe comes in. And oh man, the pumpkin and sweet potato I think will work out well and he loves both.
Thanks Paula and Jean, you have been most helpful. I will keep everyone posted on his progress and I hope when it's all said and done, I will be able to share my new knowledge and experience with others having the same hardships. Our next visit with the vet is on Monday afternoon as she wanted to see him after a week unless we notice any decline in his progress. I will definitely post an update.
Little by little I have hope now we will get our little boy happy again.
Oh, also she said it's great to give him the pepcid and recommended a 5mg dose 30 minutes before eating and his morning meds.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,598
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 9, 2014 13:09:11 GMT -7
Nick, let us know how your expressing goes after the lesson. The goal is to stay dry in between sessions. I'm a little concerned with your remark about "not in as much pain" and your not mentioning any adjustment to the pain med list you had given. There should be NO pain at all. So if you are observing shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much or slow to move, tight tense tummy, head held high or nose to the ground, not normal perky self THEN you'll need to call back and get meds adjusted. Make sure Tramadol is promptly being given every 8 hours. The dose is very light, the vet has room to move up in dose Methocarbamol is also being given on the light side of 2x a day. Discuss with the vet about giving 3x a day. There is a range of dosing for Pepcid AC. We follow the vets who are more aggressive in GI tract protection by given 5mg of Pepcid AC 30 mins before Deramaxx. And as your vet said Deramaxx with a meal. Thereafter give 5mg Pepcid AC every 12 hours (2x/day). www.petplace.com/drug-library/famotidine-pepcid/page1.aspx12lbs Tramadol 25mg (half a 50mg tab) every 8-12 hours Deramaxx 12mg (half a 25mg tab) every 24 hours Methocarbamol 250mg every 12 hours Pepcid AC 5mg 1/xday, recommend following aggressive dose of 2x/day Nick, we love your idea of getting IVDD educated and then wanting to share your knowledge. We do depend on members who feel comfortable in helping another member on the Forum. We also can't be in every city so we appreciate our members helping to educate with our free literature. Don't leave the house w/o the small cards… you never know when you meet an owner of breeds prone to disc disease (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas are most affected) order here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htm I also highly recommend adding this comprehensive "must-have" $3 DVD on IVDD to your arsenal of educational resources. Friends, family and those who will be caring for Charlie should also watch this DVD; plus don't forget to order one DVD for your vet www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htm |
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Post by Nick & Charlie on Apr 10, 2014 13:18:02 GMT -7
Sorry it has taken me a while to respond. Our nights have been consumed with taking care of the pup.
By not as much pain, I meant he wasn't really showing he was in pain any longer. the first couple days he was trembling, etc but that has stopped. Now, he's just not very happy to be in a crate.
Recently, as of yesterday, he has lost control of his bladder. He wets his bed and will pee when you pick him up. My wife has been assisting him to poop.
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 10, 2014 21:25:44 GMT -7
Hi Nick, How Often is Charlie being expressed for urine? If he is overflowing in his bed, he needs to be expressed more often.. That should cut down on the accidents in his crate/bed. When either of you express him are you getting a good urine stream until he is empty? If not go back to the vet and ask for another lesson and review the tips on our expressing link: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmHave a good night.. Hope Charlie feels better very soon.. |
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Post by Nick & Charlie on Apr 11, 2014 9:54:36 GMT -7
Hello all, Margie here, Nicks wife - I’d like to thank you all for the wonderful advice and responses! It’s been such a relief/lifesaver to find this forum and get such helpful advice. So, thank you again!!
After taking Charlie to our regular vet and her being in shock that the first vet placed him in a made up cast and it being removed. She believes that his inability to hold his bladder could be from the cast placing pressure on his bladder and since he didn’t want to relive himself this could be the reason. Along with the fact that he’s taking the Methocarbarnol and Tramadol but did let us know that he peeing and pooping is a good sign.
With that being said, Wednesday night at about 10pm Charlie began to whimper for attention. When we went to check on him we found that he had an accident. So, we cleaned and changed his bedding, his inability to hold his bladder has continued every 2-3 hours. Thankfully, I am able to bring him with me so I can watch him while I work and change him when needed. We’ve watched the videos posted on how to express urine and poop and I do get a response from him and sit with him until nothing else is left but still when placing him back in the crate he tends to have a little accident. He never really has had a full on stream of urine when going outside so maybe that’s the reason? I’ll ask the vet about that as well when we see her later today.
We gave him a bird bath last night with wipes and noticed that the end of his penis is a red and I believe he may have a UTI!! I’m worried that, that’s the case so I contacted his vet and will be bringing him in later this afternoon. We are planning on using green tea to wipe his fur and skin in that area because we read that it’s a great way to avoid rashes and sooth the area.
Also, Charlie has started wagging his tail last night which was such a delight to see and brought excitement to our home. As of right now Charlie is laying in his crate resting and we hope in 7 more weeks we can have him out of this crate that I know he hates. We will update after the vet visit.
Thanks again!
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 11, 2014 12:51:53 GMT -7
Hi, Margie. How often are you expressing Charlie? If he's still leaking urine right after being expressed, then you're not yet able to express enough urine each time. Don't hesitate to get another hands on your hands demonstration from your vet so you're sure you're expressing correctly. You should be getting a couple of good streams of urine when you express and once you become proficient with expressing, Charlie should remain dry between expressings, of course if they are done often enough. Since you are finding wet bedding every 2-3 hours, you should be expressing every couple of hours to keep the bladder from overflowing. When the bladder fills up too much and reflex causes it to overflow, it can stretch the bladder out of shape. Also urine that's left lying in the bladder can lead to an UTI.
The only way for we humans to tell if a dog has bladder control is with a sniff and pee test. Take Charlie outside, let him sniff a spot where he's peed before and see if he can release urine on his own. Don't hold under his belly while doing this. If he can release urine on his own, then he has control. If not, he needs to be expressed. You should try a sniff and pee test every few days to see if bladder control is returning. Even when bladder control starts to return, he may still not be able to completely empty his bladder at first and will need expressing after going himself.
That's absolutely wonderful news about the tail wag!! Excellent sign of nerve healing.
Please let us know what the vet says about your efforts to express and whether Charlie has a UTI. If there is a UTI, the leaking may be occurring due to that.
Healing prayers for Charlie.
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Vita & Emmie
Helpful Member 
Currently graduated for the 3rd time; walking and running!
Posts: 189
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Post by Vita & Emmie on Apr 11, 2014 14:38:40 GMT -7
Hi Nick and Margie! It sounds like you guys have jumped right in with being hands on with Charlie's care. Emmie went through the same beginning with her piddling in her crate and every time you picked her up etc. It did turn out to be a UTI and once we got that treated she would stay dry between expressing. Have you figured out the poop "expressing"? There is a video that is helpful but the only way to really understand is to feel it for yourself! But it does work and keeps the crate a lot cleaner. I was at my whit's end with Emmie whining because she had messed her crate; she was mortified and I had more laundry. I still put a pee pad in when I go out, mostly because when I come home she gets so excited she pees everywhere! Don't feel discouraged - this is early days for Charlie and you will be amazed what 8 weeks of crate rest can do for him. Be patient and don't let him see you get discouraged. You also have each other to support when things get messy! Main thing now is to get all you need set up so you make everything as easy as you can. I don't know if you've seen the information regarding the green tea for your bird baths (I love that - bird bath!). It neutralizes the acid from the urine - Emmie was getting burned skin on her tummy from it getting on her from her blankets. The green tea sponge baths once a day took care of it (and the smell on her fur) in no time! Emmie and I send Charlie our best during his convalescence.  |
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